Are you going for mainstream or self-publishing?

I'm in the self-publishing crowd. If you'd asked me two years ago, I would have said no way. For as long as I've been writing, self-publishing has been a sign of failure, that a book was so bad it couldn't get published.

What changed was when indie publishing started to come to life about the same time that it seemed like the traditional publishers were narrowing their focus on what they were published (my observation as a reader). They were looking for the same but different, and I was always different and not the same. But I also have problems with getting the story up to the right length, and it was a big consideration. With indie, I didn't need to worry about making a specific word count. Traditional publishers also require an outline up front, and I can't outline, so that would mean I would forever write on spec. I could easily imagine writing several books and fighting to get the length up, publisher not liking them, and me scrambling to meet deadlines. Meanwhile, I can't do anything with all the work I did because of the contract.

What's been really empowering is going to science fiction conventions. They're just now starting to do workshops on indie publishing. I attended one this weekend, and there were so many things that came out that I hadn't seen anywhere else, but that made perfect sense. Indie publishing isn't just tossing up a book --at least not if I want it to sell. It's committing time to make sure the book is good, and committing money to a cover that looks like a traditionally published book and editing.

After looking things over, I've decided to self-publish. If S7 has wings, then it should soar on the warm currents of Amazon, Smashwords, BN.com, etc. Print edition will be through Amazon's CreateSpace with the expanded distribution option. It'll go in the Kindle Lending Library, too, for both expanded reading and additional revenue.

As for cover art, I think I did a fair job - click here and let me know what you think.

The attempts at mainstream and submitting it to the masses via the above outlets equate to the basic same acid bath. Rejection or acceptance will occur. In the latter, though, I will get MORE review/input as to what's good/bad about it, AND turn a few bucks in the process. Plus, if S7 is a flop, I can always pen under a new name when my writing is good enough to sell.

Michael Parks said:

. Plus, if S7 is a flop, I can always pen under a new name when my writing is good enough to sell.

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Yeah, but you have to query agents and publishers with your real name, even if you publish under your pen name. And typically you have to mention your other publications. And if they see you have flopped…this is my concern with my self-published titles. Not that they flopped, per say – I turned the profit I expected to turn, a moderate one, and I put limited (i.e. almost not) effort into promotion. I knew I had a small audience to reach with these particular titles from the beginning, and I had realistic expectations. But I do worry about how those self-publications appear as I query publishers and agents. On the other hand, I also have two novels with a small press publisher, but again, they are not huge sellers; they’re under the 10,000 mark that seems to be the threshold for mattering. If publishers/agents see that, I fear they might think “this person can’t sell a lot of copies” rather than “this person had almost no promotion or distribution, but she sold a few thousand copies anyway. Maybe that’s a good sign.” I fear it hurts the chances of future publication, and in retrospect, I wonder if I should have delayed gratification, even if I made money off of it. But I guess I can only delay gratification for so long.

Michael Parks said:

In the latter, though, I will get MORE review/input as to what's good/bad about it, AND turn a few bucks in the process. Plus, if S7 is a flop, I can always pen under a new name when my writing is good enough to sell.

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But here again is this idea that readers are the guinea pigs, the critique service. They aren't. Writers shouldn't be tossing "stuff" out there to see if it floats. This is precisely the kind of thinking that gives self-publishing a bad name.

skylarburris said:

Yeah, but you have to query agents and publishers with ...

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Totally off topic: That's one ridiculously cute little critter you have there. Those eyes and cheeks and that smile -- good lord!

Linda Adams said:

What changed was when indie publishing started to come to life about the same time that it seemed like the traditional publishers were narrowing their focus on what they were published (my observation as a reader). They were looking for the same but different, and I was always different and not the same. But I also have problems with getting the story up to the right length, and it was a big consideration. With indie, I didn't need to worry about making a specific word count. Traditional publishers also require an outline up front, and I can't outline, so that would mean I would forever write on spec.

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What?

Trade publishers require a complete manuscript. I do not even know what you mean here.

Also, you are not an indie publisher. You're a self-publisher.

cmi0616 said:

I can't imagine somebody putting in all the hard work writing a novel requires and not at least "going for" mainstream publishing. Isn't it every novelist's dream to be on the shelves at Barnes and Nobles, and go on a book tour, etc. ?

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This comment made realize something odd. I read ALOT, but I haven't been to a book store in over a decade (probably not in this century). Worse, I was trying to think of anyone I know who might have gone to a bookstore recently. Most of my friends are avid readers. But aside from the library or book swaps, they get everything online. We also swap amongst ourselves alot.

This forum is probably the only place I've seen people talk about going to actual bookstores.

So, I'm thinking that in another decade, there will be a huge number of readers who will view print books as an oddity that has gone the way of the landline phone. Remember discovering six year olds who had no idea that an anolog clock told time or how to read them?

So the lure of 'having your book on shelves at Barns and Noble' may sound strange to someone who views Barns and Noble as only a website.

Fins Left said:

So the lure of 'having your book on shelves at Barns and Noble' may sound strange to someone who views Barns and Noble as only a website.

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Print books still make up the majority of sales. That may not be true in a decade, but bookstores aren't going to vanish that quickly. Especially outside the U.S. Remember, there is a whole world whose population doesn't immediately upgrade to the latest model of smartphone.

cmi0616 said:

I can't imagine somebody putting in all the hard work writing a novel requires and not at least "going for" mainstream publishing. Isn't it every novelist's dream to be on the shelves at Barnes and Nobles, and go on a book tour, etc. ?

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If I were confident my Elf erotica would have even a small chance of hitting mainstream, I'd go there first.

I'm not that idealistic, 50 Shades notwithstanding. Small press for me!

And to be honest, I'm curious about this self-publishing area. I can sit around, brushing my fingernails over my shirt and talk about it in high level terms, discuss the merits and the downfalls but it seems like I'll get more out of the discussion if I'm actually doing it.

Could be just me, though. I'd rather have talking points of my own instead of regurgitating what everyone else is 'saying' out there. Especially since I really have very little faith for much of the information out there as not being fluffed up and massaged to make the person look good and their endeavor not look like a failure.

shadowwalker said:

But here again is this idea that readers are the guinea pigs, the critique service. They aren't. Writers shouldn't be tossing "stuff" out there to see if it floats. This is precisely the kind of thinking that gives self-publishing a bad name.

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QFT



I had more stuff quoted and typed up and realized it boiled down to one thing:

I really wish people who choose to go into self-publishing would please stop propagating misinformation about the trade publishing industry and using that as a reason why they choose to self-publish.

meh. All it shows me is that they've not done their homework*.

*spoken as someone who's mind has been changed about self-publishing precisely because she has done research into it but has had to cut through a lot of misinformation on the self-publishing front, too.

shadowwalker said:

But here again is this idea that readers are the guinea pigs, the critique service. They aren't. Writers shouldn't be tossing "stuff" out there to see if it floats. This is precisely the kind of thinking that gives self-publishing a bad name.

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I agree with this to an extent. The same infrastructure that can provide a "good" author a much better chance at book sales provides everybody with an entry point (a dumping ground, as it were).

That's the challenge to the "good" (or better) author in self-publishing, isn't it? Marketing. Raising your work's visibility above the unwashed masses of novels in the heap. In a great sense, if your writing is REALLY good, it WILL rise above the crap, just as it would in an agent's query pile. And when it does, a different but just as magical thing happens: you sell books, gain rep and visibility, and are validated as an author.

The reliance on the big 6 is fine to spur the crafting of your writing skill. Aim high and you will eventually get there. You'll arrive in the top 3 percent of all writers who submit... problem is, the big 6 are selecting from the top 0.05% to publish.

Then there's Twilight. To me, it's a qualified lottery and isn't much different than getting "discovered" online.

So yes, if your work is really that effin' good, then go big 6. Hell, I'll probably still query 10 or 15 agencies, but I will not be as worried and angsty about it as I knew I was before. And if they are interested and find a publisher, I'll have to seriously consider the offer. Do I REALLY want my writing to be a job? A "must crank" situation for my second novel? Mandatory travel for signings? I've read what this is like and how the charm wears off so quickly.

Like most here, whatever path I take will be characterized by the quality and content of my novel. That's the ticket in hand. I'm curious to where it will lead because right now I have no idea.

Michael Parks said:

I agree with this to an extent. The same infrastructure that can provide a "good" author a much better chance at book sales provides everybody with an entry point (a dumping ground, as it were).

That's the challenge to the "good" (or better) author in self-publishing, isn't it? Marketing. Raising your work's visibility above the unwashed masses of novels in the heap. In a great sense, if your writing is REALLY good, it WILL rise above the crap, just as it would in an agent's query pile.

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But what I was referring to was your statement about using a pen name and trying again if your first book flopped. In essence, you are willing to put out a book that you don't *know* is as good as it can be, and subjecting the readers to that in order to find out. If you've had beta readers, or editors look at it, revised it, worked it, then you should have every confidence that it is a good book, and that it will rise to the top.

As to marketing - a person can be great at marketing but that doesn't mean the book is any good. A lot of people can end up hearing about the book and talking about it, but not in a good way. Too many SPs worry about the marketing (and discuss it ad nauseum) instead of worrying about the writing. It's not producing widgets, manufacturing some generic product.

Michael Parks said:

In a great sense, if your writing is REALLY good, it WILL rise above the crap, just as it would in an agent's query pile. .

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Not without a certain (large) amount of activation energy. In publishing houses this comes via marketing campaigns (or doesn't; there are plenty of horror stories about great books that were under-marketed...know what? they generally tanked, because they were so far below radar it didn't matter if they were sooper-dooper-good) and if you self-pub you need to drive that campaign as well.

There ARE a few flukes that caught fire by word of mouth but VERY few, just as there are a few folks who got recording contracts because an exec bumped into them on a corner, but that's not even a drop in the already small bucket of folks who busted ass and clawed their way in. And nowhere besides writing would this be considered a strategy to succeed, the idea you just let it hang out there and if it is good enough, people will come.

I'm planning on going mainstream, Big 6 ideally (TOR would be awesome since I write science fiction), though I would be happy with a smaller publisher as well. I do plan to go with an e-publisher for my short stories.
I don't have the editing or time management skills to self-publish.

quicklime said:

And nowhere besides writing would this be considered a strategy to succeed, the idea you just let it hang out there and if it is good enough, people will come.

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I couldn't agree more or have said it better. Thanks for putting my feelings into succinct words, man.

Amadan said:

Print books still make up the majority of sales.

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True, but self-published books can also be in print. The distinction mentioned was that self-published books are not in brick-mortar bookstores.

U.S. Remember, there is a whole world whose population doesn't immediately upgrade to the latest model of smartphone.

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As of about 2007, 25% of the US adult population were not on the internet (PEW Research). That number is declining as devices become more user friendly and the largest group of 'not-connected' (over 65yo) die out. (Google technology divide to learn more about the population statistics)

There are several non-profit groups who are raising money to buy and provide electronic reading devices (Kindles, what ever) for children in impoverished areas. They usually setup up a lending (distribution) libraries at the local school. They are pursuing this approach because it is cheaper and the students get not just the schoolbooks they need, but can also have many more books just for 'fun' (as an example, one group is putting all of the Gutenberg Project books onto the school's library.) This trend is following the trend to provide reliable electricity to small and remote villages and it makes sense to use battery operated devices that can store hundreds of books instead of shipping tons of smashed up trees smeared in oils.

Out of curiosity when you go the e-publishing route what format is that? like is it just an unprotected pdf I mean that makes it far to easy for someone to make a copy of it... I have used a comic site before to buy comics digitally and you read it online so you cannot pirate it/download and redistribute it.

Fins Left said:

This comment made realize something odd. I read ALOT, but I haven't been to a book store in over a decade (probably not in this century). Worse, I was trying to think of anyone I know who might have gone to a bookstore recently. Most of my friends are avid readers. But aside from the library or book swaps, they get everything online. We also swap amongst ourselves alot.

This forum is probably the only place I've seen people talk about going to actual bookstores.

So, I'm thinking that in another decade, there will be a huge number of readers who will view print books as an oddity that has gone the way of the landline phone. Remember discovering six year olds who had no idea that an anolog clock told time or how to read them?

So the lure of 'having your book on shelves at Barns and Noble' may sound strange to someone who views Barns and Noble as only a website.

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Well, the book shelves at Barnes and Noble was just an example to prove a larger point. However, I for one, go to the bookstore at least once a month, and it always seems decently busy.

But, anyways, yes I understand your point. I doubt very little that the Nook, Kindle, etc. will eventually replace print books entirely in the long run. That said, this is the present and I still stand by my point that most novelists at least want to "go for" mainstream publishing. It's a sign of recognition and success to have your book published and sold by a Big 6 type company. Who doesn't like recognition and success?

cmi0616 said:

Who doesn't like recognition and success?

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Not everyone feels the need to have that... some can simply make a creation and be happy with it.

“There are so many attention whores out there, prostituting for people's acknowledgment”
―Jason Myers

_Jinx_ said:

Not everyone feels the need to have that...

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Of course, it's not the reason you write a novel or anything at all for that matter. Anything that's half-way good is not going to come from a commercial motive. But I think when all is said and done, a part of you wants the thing to be read and you want to be recognized. At least, I think most writers would. Writers, the ones that I've met anyways, are fairly competitive. They want to get better and better, and one of the ways one can validate his/her having improved is through the prestige that comes along with a major publishing company.

cmi0616 said:

But I think when all is said and done, a part of you wants the thing to be read and you want to be recognized.

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And I think Big 6 publishing gives you the best exposure and greatest chance of being read widely.

But, when all is said and done, I do just want the thing to be read, and if I can't get it read through the traditional channels, then I'll do what I must to ensure it has at least some kind of audience--even if it's just a handful fanfic readers who are willing to take a chance on something free.

So my progression will be Big 6 > small pub > e-pub > self-pub > FictionPress.

_Jinx_ said:

Not everyone feels the need to have that... some can simply make a creation and be happy with it.

“There are so many attention whores out there, prostituting for people's acknowledgment”
―Jason Myers

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Absolutely true. But anyone who does want recognition and success isn't necessarily an attention whore, either.

Traditional - I don't know where this "mainstream" came from, though it's probably a response from self-published authors so they can justify the term "indie."

I've had these conversations before, and believe me - there's nothing more defensive than an offended self-published author. Careful where you tread here, folks. No offense to self-published authors whatsoever, I've just seen these conversations blow up more than once. The whole self-righteous "not giving up my money to the man!" aspect of modern self-publishing makes me gag.

You're not JA Konrath. You're not Amanda Hocking. If you make the choice to self-publish, great. I wish you all the best - but don't jump down my throat because I choose to get published in the traditional sense.

IDGS said:

Traditional - I don't know where this "mainstream" came from, though it's probably a response from self-published authors so they can justify the term "indie."

I've had these conversations before, and believe me - there's nothing more defensive than an offended self-published author.Careful where you tread here, folks. No offense to self-published authors whatsoever, I've just seen these conversations blow up more than once. The whole self-righteous "not giving up my money to the man!" aspect of modern self-publishing makes me gag.

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I'm not a self-published author, but I'd like to point out that your "no offense" disclaimer isn't enough to prevent offense when you're declaring there is "nothing more defensive than an offended self-published author" and that they're "self-righteous" and they "make you gag." Or that they need some justification to use the term "indie."

You say you've seen these conversations "blow up more than once." Given the condescending attitude you've just displayed toward the self-published, no wonder your discussions with them go rapidly south.

I'd love to know what's behind your need shame the self-published.

IDGS said:

You're not JA Konrath. You're not Amanda Hocking. If you make the choice to self-publish, great. I wish you all the best - but don't jump down my throat because I choose to get published in the traditional sense.

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I doubt you're either of the above mentioned authors either. And while I really respect Hocking for how hard she's worked, her honesty and what she's achieved on her own, if my writing was at the sophomoric level of My Blood Approves I'd put a gun to my head and pull the trigger. That's okay though, as there are plenty of commercially published works that make me feel that way too.

Oh, and uh, no offense.

Devil Ledbetter said:

Or that they need some justification to use the term "indie."

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Seems to me there has been a discussion or two on using proper terminology, though. An indie publisher is something specific within the publishing world. An indie writer - well, I'm one and I have no intention of self-publishing.

Anyway... just sayin'