Are you going for mainstream or self-publishing?

Old Hack said:

I've just finished reading Jo Walton's book Among Others. It's about a girl whose sister dies, and she ends up at boarding school where she feels like an outsider. But then she joins a book club and things start to look up for her.

It's a gorgeous coming-of-age story which also happens to have a bit of magic in it, and fairies. It's won prizes. But it also fits into the same narrow niche you describe, Shika. Don't be so quick to dismiss trade publishing as an option for you.

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Any time I hear slice-of-life and SF/F in the same breath, I'm reminded of the animated movie My Neighbor Totoro.

I remember someone once saying that there was no plot in My Neighbor Totoro.

I remember being flabbergasted. There was a plot. It was quiet but there was one. It mostly followed two little girls as they explored their new home when they moved to be closer to their mother who was sick in a hospital.

But, no, no explosions, no action sequences (unless you consider the race around the countryside in a catbus action), no car chases, no dead bodies, no fight scenes.

Just two little girls discovering the magical wonder of living in the country.

/derail

Shika Senbei said:

I know my novels simply don't have mass appeal, and that no agent will want to run the risk of trying to get them published.

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How do you know? How many agents turned you down because the manuscript doesn't have mass appeal? How many publishers?

If you haven't ever submitted, you can't possibly know.

Jeff

As to the OP, I don't know. With this novel, I'll try agents as gatekeepers to the big six first for awhile, and if that doesn't work, probably kindle not only this but two of the previous novels which would be acceptable to my standards (which are not a beginner's standards) with a final revision. (Another novel would also have been fine, but before self-pubbing on kindle was a glint in anyone's eye, I threw out the last copy of it.) In either case, I'm throwing the end result up to Fate to a large degree. There is luck involved at every step either way you go.

Kindling a poetry collection for 99 cents, which I guess would never make me 100 bucks there, is another choice. Few folk buy poetry, and I know it. So for the poet in me, the decision is, do I care if nobody ever reads it/owns it? Or would I rather it be out there with a shot of 200 strangers reading it and 20 relatives having the file? Is that heart-warming end worth the effort of continuing to learn how to kindle a book well? I don't know. It'd help me learn for when/if I put novels up. Still musing on this.

It's a new publishing world out there, a changing world, and to pick an extreme position and fume about it in this post would be silly of me. Five years from now, who knows how I'll feel? Who knows what the publishing world will look like? Maybe I'll have a terminal diagnosis and that will change my choice overnight. Maybe we're only 2 years away from seeing another interesting innovation.

While big money isn't crucial to me, offering me a pittance seems offensive. It has taken me 20 years to get pretty good, and I've done all that largely on my own dime and time. Without new writers, there is no publishing industry. Without midlist writers, there is no publishing industry. I'm not nothing; "I'm" collectively the generator of the product that is keeping CEOs in their sprawling summer houses while I live in a 6 x 18 space. This has to make a thinking person think.

I further believe that too often authors position themselves as beggars at the door of the big six, when perhaps published authors as a group would be better served negotiating from a stronger position. An author with some decent books published traditionally can say, head held high, here's another good product; I can sell it through kindle without you for 70% of cover; what are you willing to offer me to entice me away from that choice? (Or they can have their lawyer say that for them.) Perhaps that day hasn't come yet, but it may, and the epubbing world may be the best thing that ever happened to big 6 writers because it is shifting the balance of power their way. Maybe--my crystal ball is broken today and I can't promise this will come true.

Self-pubbing via kindle and smashwords delights me too because I'm fond of democracy for its own sake, though I understand how radical a position that is. Even if I don't do it myself, I cheer for it.

lorna_w said:

As to the OP, I don't know. With this novel, I'll try agents as gatekeepers to the big six first for awhile,

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You do know that agents don't only submit to the Big Six, and that there are many trade publishers which aren't part of those Big Six? Yes? OK, then.

It's a new publishing world out there, a changing world, and to pick an extreme position and fume about it in this post would be silly of me. Five years from now, who knows how I'll feel? Who knows what the publishing world will look like?

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I've said it before and I'll say it again: the only constant in publishing is that it's always changing. I don't know why people lately seem to be highlighting this, but it's not news. Really, it's not.

Maybe I'll have a terminal diagnosis and that will change my choice overnight.

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I certainly hope you won't.

Maybe we're only 2 years away from seeing another interesting innovation.

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I doubt it'll be that long.

While big money isn't crucial to me, offering me a pittance seems offensive. It has taken me 20 years to get pretty good, and I've done all that largely on my own dime and time. Without new writers, there is no publishing industry. Without midlist writers, there is no publishing industry. I'm not nothing; "I'm" collectively the generator of the product that is keeping CEOs in their sprawling summer houses while I live in a 6 x 18 space. This has to make a thinking person think.

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Not all advances are pittances. I've had a few which are in five figures (and I get paid in pounds stirling, not dollars).

Publishers don't pay you for the books you wrote while you were learning your trade, just as employers don't pay you while you're training; and while CEOs in general are highly paid, most workers aren't; just as top-selling writers in general earn a good amount, while most other writers aren't. So your analogy here is somewhat flawed.

I further believe that too often authors position themselves as beggars at the door of the big six, when perhaps published authors as a group would be better served negotiating from a stronger position.

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Would you want to accept a communal deal? Where everyone took an equal share of the royalties? That's ok if your book is a lower seller in the group but what if your books are the only ones which sell, but all the other group members are getting a cut of the royalties?

An author with some decent books published traditionally can say, head held high, here's another good product; I can sell it through kindle without you for 70% of cover; what are you willing to offer me to entice me away from that choice?

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Editing. Distribution. Marketing. Promotion. No upfront costs and cake by the bucketload (ok, I'm joking about the cake bit).

Old Hack said:

Editing. Distribution. Marketing. Promotion. No upfront costs and cake by the bucketload (ok, I'm joking about the cake bit).

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Mine have never ever sent me cake. I've been sent books, and chocolate, and once, a nifty laser pointer, but never cake.

Keep in mind that "big six" isn't six, as Old Hack notes. Moreover, there are, in the U.S. alone, probably another 500 or so smaller publishers (and I'm guesstimating not actually counting).

There's an FAQ listing the large connections of the Big Six, but I want to point out that there are lots of good publishers besides the "big six."

One of my very favorite publishers ever is not at all connected to any of the "big six," is highly respected, publishes fiction, non-fiction, poetry and art books, and is entirely owned by its employees:

W. W. Norton. Here's their About page.

For fiction writers? Mainstream if you have the choice, for all these reasons: "What if JK Rowling had self-published?"

Self publish with sites two plus ebook.

Old Hack said:

Editing. Distribution. Marketing. Promotion. No upfront costs and cake by the bucketload (ok, I'm joking about the cake bit).

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The cake is always a lie!

Anyway, on topic . . . I really would never self-publish, mainly because it wouldn't be satisfying to me at all. I want to make a career out of this writing business, and I can't feel like I've accomplished anything if there's no quality control before publication. Self-publishing just seems too easy.

I also hate marketing. I understand in mainstream publishing writers do a certain amount of self-promotion, but they should have an agent and some sort of house marketing liaison to help them with these things. I don't want to focus on them. I want to be writing things--how could I write things if I were constantly focused on trying to get my name or my book out there?

And really, tbh, I think that readers want books put out by publishing companies. Readers, just like some of us other writers, have learned that self-published books are just badly written and badly edited. This is because it's so easy to self-pub that many people who shouldn't be publishing their books yet are convinced they're good enough to go out into the world. This is unfortunate for the competent people who self-publish, as the odds are already stacked against them.

Wherever the wind takes me (which will probably be mainstream, but hey, maybe the wind will surprise me.)

strategic_tragedies said:

maybe the wind will surprise me.)

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I hope this surprise doesn't come in the form of someone breaking wind.

My mind is made up for my first book at least -- traditional publishing -- but this whole discussion interests me. I just stumbled across a tweet by a new agent (posted about it here) who reached out to a "successful" (more to come on that) self-published author trying to lure the author into traditional publishing.

I was intrigued. I followed a daisy chain of links and downloaded the first book in the series. It has 137 reviews on Amazon with a 4.4 average rating. I'm skeptical of those reviews for various reasons but the book is free, so why not?

Well. I wasn't long in the Cloud before I surfed back to Amazon to see what the very few 1- and 2-star reviewers had to say. Sure enough: "Editor, please!" Really, the errors in grammar, spelling, and punctuation were shocking. I looked at other negative reviews in the series and saw the same complaints, as well as calls for a content and development editor. I looked at the cover of the book I was reading and realized it needed work, too. I kept reading and found tons of formatting errors as well -- and this is after a note from the author that the current edition was "edited and updated" in May of this year!

The story could also be accused of being totally derivative, a combo of Harry Potter and Twilight with almost nothing new, but hey -- why complain? Rip off whatever works, I say.

Now here's where we enter the labyrinth. Does this book actually "work"? One hundred thirty-seven Amazon reviews, mostly raves, indicate one or more of the following:

1. Yes, the book totally works. It follows successful formulas and delivers for YA readers. It is selling well.
2. The book works in some small and new universe in which online friends and followers uprate self-pubbed books on Amazon regardless of the quality. One hundred thirty-seven of these reviews translate into about a dozen legit reviews of solid, traditionally published books. Sales are actually low, but the author keeps most of the $3.99 or $2.99 she charges so things sort of even out. This universe also entertains low standards; grammatical errers like who cares B-cuz we don't even sea themb U eleetists! Its the kool storie that maters i so luuuuuuurved the prince!

Either way, I bet that agent thought to herself, "This writer could be SO MUCH MORE if she'd go traditional. She's got the energy and the output; she just needs to be shaped and polished and marketed properly, and she could be the next JK Meyer or Stephenie Rowling."


Maybe this isn't what the author wants; maybe she's satisfied with her current sales and fan base, thank you, and doesn't want to make the surrenders, enumerated on this thread, that going traditional requires.


So I guess for the time being we'll see a determined little army of unpolished, self-pubbed authors who enhance the household income by satisfying low-expectation readers on one side, and the gatekeepers and cloudy divinities of traditional publishing trying to maintain their world on the other.


I come down on the side of traditional publishers, but I would sympathize completely with that author if she decided to forgo the risks and keep doing what she's doing.

I think typos and grammatical errors, along with structural errors are inexcusable, but just because someone self publishes their book, doesn't mean there's a good chance of this. You can hire an editor and self publish, which puts you in the same position as those that are published by a publishing house.

Self publishing does not mean amateur.

It also seems like the eBook rights aren't being discussed. What about down the road, when the sales dry up on the hardcover/paperback versions and it goes out of print? The rights are supposed to revert back to the author after a certain period of time. However, in many cases, many traditional publishers won't relinquish the rights, as eBooks never go out of print.

One big advantage of self publishing is controlling the eBook rights, which can earn you an income "forever." I think by going with a traditional publish, getting back these rights are questionable.

I also believe having a back list of many books is the route for exponential success as a self publish author. I don't think discovery of the book is greatly enhanced by publishing companies. Sure, there is a push, but until you have a following, a lot of the push still comes back to what the author does with social media, their website and putting the word out.

I believe I've seen, perhaps in this thread, that ebooks are considered out of print when sales drop below a certain level. And again, that's something that should go into the contract. So it's not like the publishers can really hang on to those rights forever.

Someone correct me if I have that wrong.

I was looking for a link that talks about the eBook rights not going out of print, but I came across this blog post. While JA Konrath hates legacy publishers, I find it hard to disagree with many of his points.

http://jakonrath.blogspot.com/2012/02/do-legacy-publishers-treat-authors.html

What's a legacy publisher?

While I haven't found the exact link specifically about eBooks rights and reverting back to the author, I did find this link where JA Konrath makes a comment about it:

I just had a long conversation with a friend of mine (not Ann) whose publisher won't give him his rights back because they state even though they no longer sell the paper copies, they are still selling them in ebook format. WTF? If that's the case, why does every contract have an out of print clause? Show me an ebook that has ever gone out of print! I offered to pay my buddy's legal fees when he sues the hell out of those assholes, because he'll set the precedent that frees us all.

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While Harlequin isn't one of the big 6, this is a story that scares me about traditional publishers.

http://jakonrath.blogspot.com/2012/05/harlequin-fail.html

bearilou said:

What's a legacy publisher?

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He means traditional publisher, for example the big 6 and others etc.

bearilou said:

What's a legacy publisher?

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It's another half-assed half-witted less-than-literate snotty jibe by Konrath at commercial/mainstream publishing.

I'm so frackin' tired of Dunning-Kruger infected people inventing insulting pejorative language to refer to publishing professionals. That includes "legacy publishing, dinosaurs, gatekeepers" and "traditional publishing" with their various suffixed forms.

I say this as someone who self-publishes, and has helped others self-publish.

This is me-the-academic objecting as well as me-the-writer, and me-the-typesetter.

sekime said:

While Harlequin isn't one of the big 6, this is a story that scares me about traditional publishers.

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Sekime, I mean this in the most sincerest manner possible.

Before you buy everything he has to say about trade publishing, do some investigating for yourself. Don't buy into all the hype self-publishing gurus out there who have an axe to grind. Talk to actual professionals within the industry itself.

They're here, on the board and they will give you the honest-to-goodness truth about trade publishing. Really. They really don't have anything to prove or to gain by steering someone in one direction or another. Get the facts from someone who has done both.

And please please please, before you start buying into the hype that gets promulgated about self-publishing, head over to the publishing section of the board and get to know the self-published authors who hang out there. Get the real inner-skinny from them. Find out about the ups and downs, the pitfalls and the windfalls. Talk to them about the elation of success and the hard, hard work they put into every single book they write and sell.

Don't don't don't buy everything JAK has to say (or those who end up being his mouthpieces) hook, line and sinker without doing some research on your own from as unbiased sources as you can find.

bearilou said:

Sekime, I mean this in the most sincerest manner possible.

Before you buy everything he has to say about trade publishing, do some investigating for yourself. Don't buy into all the hype self-publishing gurus out there who have an axe to grind. Talk to actual professionals within the industry itself.

They're here, on the board and they will give you the honest-to-goodness truth about trade publishing. Really. They really don't have anything to prove or to gain by steering someone in one direction or another. Get the facts from someone who has done both.

And please please please, before you start buying into the hype that gets promulgated about self-publishing, head over to the publishing section of the board and get to know the self-published authors who hang out there. Get the real inner-skinny from them. Find out about the ups and downs, the pitfalls and the windfalls. Talk to them about the elation of success and the hard, hard work they put into every single book they write and sell.

Don't don't don't buy everything JAK has to say (or those who end up being his mouthpieces) hook, line and sinker without doing some research on your own from as unbiased sources as you can find.

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Thank you. I appreciate all the information being presented on both sides. I don't have a horse in either race at the moment, as I'm writing my first novel. I have so much to learn about the writing part, as well as the publishing part.

I do enjoy the discussion, and appreciate the information everyone has to share.

I also don't think it has to be a Windows vs. PC type of debate either, as religious as they can get on either side between people. #boycottapple

sekime said:

One big advantage of self publishing is controlling the eBook rights, which can earn you an income "forever." I think by going with a traditional publish, getting back these rights are questionable.

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Bolded mine.

It shouldn't be questionable at all. As others have said, contracts should spell this out. My contracts with my publisher, who does mainly ebook sales but also does print, plainly states that my rights - all of them - revert back to me after five years. Not after sales dry up, not it the publisher decides to give them back. Five years. If both the publisher and I mutually decide to extend that term, we have the option to do so, if we both agree.

I know of several authors whose ebook rights reverted back to them after a specified time in their contract and they now house their books with another publishing house.

I am not a marketing rep. I'm not a PR person. I'm not an editor or artist (graphic or otherwise). I haven't even checked my personal facebook page in weeks. I don't have a twitter account, nor do I care to. I have a full-time, demanding day job and a family. When I have spare time, I want to spend it writing another book. I'll let my publisher do the rest.

sekime said:

I also don't think it has to be a Windows vs. PC type of debate either, as religious as they can get on either side between people. #boycottapple

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It really doesn't. It's all about being informed and making the right choices with good, clear information for what's best for you.

But you're right. Get that book written first! Then worry about what you do with it!

bearilou said:

What's a legacy publisher?

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It's a snide way of referring to mainstream, aka trade publishers.

sekime said:

While I haven't found the exact link specifically about eBooks rights and reverting back to the author, I did find this link where JA Konrath makes a comment about it:



While Harlequin isn't one of the big 6, this is a story that scares me about traditional publishers.

http://jakonrath.blogspot.com/2012/05/harlequin-fail.html

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Please stop using the phrase "traditional publisher" - it makes you look silly.

And also please research the ways in which Harlequin is so utterly unlike other publishers as to make it practically an industry unto itself.

willietheshakes said:

Please stop using the phrase "traditional publisher" - it makes you look silly.

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Why is that? If it's good enough for a New York Times reporter...

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/17/t...-rules-of-book-publishing.html?pagewanted=all

Ms. Saville did not get any money upfront, as she would have if a traditional publisher had picked up her memoir. In essence, Amazon has become her partner.

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I'm here to learn. I don't have a high horse. Ride what you like.

If you have something to contribute, please do. What information do you have about Harlequin other than the link I posted, compared to other "traditional" publishers?