Why I Won't Beta Read Your Novel

Brave and succinct. It should be a sticky.

Unfortunately I have very limited time, (you wouldn't know it by the amount of time I spend on AW!) but have beta read for 5 people at AW and really put a lot of time and effort into it, because obviously I think it's important and that's what I would want from someone beta reading my mss. Only 2 thanked me, a better average than poor Karen's, but still left me puzzled and feeling a little disappointed. Am I a bad beta? Did I not understand the concept? Was I too harsh? Did I miss the message of the book? Not sufficiently skilled for the genre? I try to balance comments, but I'm not going to say, this was so lovely there was nothing I could add. What I hope I provided in each and every case was thoughtful, helpful, possibly insightful reading. Instead, I am left wondering where I went wrong.

Karen Junker said:

Remus -- what you're looking for is a crit partner, not a beta reader.

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Am I? I'm honestly not sure. I have a crit group already, and they've already gone through one of my novels. (They're slow; they took two years to do that one. They're in the middle of another now. They haven't looked at the third, and I don't think I'll ever send it to them.) Do I need two or more crit groups? One for each novel? How will I find the time?

If it's just a matter of copyediting for typos and obvious errors, that's all fixed in the first draft stage. If any errors remain in my manuscripts then they're not obvious, because if they were I'd fix them. I would assume most authors do the same. (Maybe that's a bad assumption?)

Apparently beta readers want some assurance that a manuscript is polished enough for their attention. But writers want the beta readers help in polishing. It seems like a Catch-22 to me.

You can post and ask for them in this forum. PM me and let me know what genre you write and I may be able to help you out!

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Thanks for the offer. I'll take you up on it. But I'd like some tips on getting beta readers the honest way. Unfortunately I am very short on social skills, and making friends is really, really difficult for me, so Maryn's tips are not helpful. Maybe that means I'm just excluded; I'm used to that.

Well said, Maryn.

cscarlet, paying homage to Maryn by ending her post this way.

PS: I like your egg.

I don't beta read, so perhaps I should stay out of this thread (fat chance), but I agree with the raging curmudgette.

I'm working on a novel and need critique partners, where the same principles may be applied.

After exchanging a chapter or three, we may find the other's work outside our comfort zone or the other's critique not helpful.

As others have said, we can become bogged down in many and repeated errors in spelling, punctuation, and grammar. A while ago, two candidates for partnership assured me their works were "polished" when they were in fact horrible in all three areas. They told me I should be looking at the "content." I guess I'm a reader who can't see good content through poor mechanics.

I'm not talking perfection. I'm talking the basics. If those are murky, then odds are so is the content.

Chase, a seasoned curmudgeon

RemusShepherd said:

I have a crit group already, and they've already gone through one of my novels. (They're slow; they took two years to do that one. They're in the middle of another now. They haven't looked at the third, and I don't think I'll ever send it to them.) Do I need two or more crit groups? One for each novel? How will I find the time?

Unfortunately I am very short on social skills, and making friends is really, really difficult for me, so Maryn's tips are not helpful. Maybe that means I'm just excluded; I'm used to that.

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First of all, Remus, no reflection on their skills, but I think you need a new crit group if they're taking that long! Ideally, you'll want to continue to write and edit and finally produce a finished product in your lifetime.

As for the second part, it makes me sad to think you feel excluded. I do believe Maryn's tips are extremely helpful and, as I said in my own post, I relate to the sentiment. But I don't believe she meant anyone and their work had to be perfect. I think it was hyperbole for the sake of making a point. It should be sufficiently edited and polished that your beta isn't slogging through poor sentence structure and bad grammar trying to get to the meat of the story and provide some outside perspective.

Some people do have perfectly edited mss and others know there may still be the odd typo or punctuation issue, but ask you to ignore that and tell them overall if their story works: is voice true, does it flow, engage the reader, does it fit the genre, info dump, that sort of thing. In other words, is it ready to go out into the world or need some tweaking or maybe even a complete overhaul.

If you feel your work is ready for a beta then I hope you'll persevere and find one that is a good fit.

I've beta-read novels for two people and beta-read a few chapters for a third. I'm not sure how good of a beta-reader I am, but they all thanked me. (But two were people I'd interacted with a lot on various forums, and the third was someone I'd interacted with at least a little in the SYW forum.)

The idea of doing sixty beta-reads and getting acknowledgement for only five boggles my mind. That sounds like some really bad luck.

Remus, you just need to relax and banter with some folks in Office Party. It helps us get to know you better--but Maryn already said this.

Back to topic:

I think 100 posts before showing our own material would be better. Maybe even 200 before asking someone to beta. Just a thought.

Refreshing Honest and Informative Thread

Hello Maryn,

I'm not fully confident I am qualified to respond on this board as I've been living on the Basic Writing Board.

I fully enjoyed this post and have a high degree of respect for you based on your principles and forthrightness. Your post is exactly the type of information I was in search of to fully understand what my next move should be on my own project.

To say I agree with your presentation of the subject 100% would be short of my true feelings and observation. My thoughts in reading your posts were that of amazement at people not responding, lack of gratitude for your time, effort, and freely sharing your knowledge and experience, solely for their benefit. How rude and disrespectful can one be without a swift kick? There is a level of common decency, common sense and knowing right from wrong one should possess and fully understand to be involved with AW.

Thank you for the well thought out and solid continuity of your original post. I appreciate it and have learned more about how best to utilize the benefits afforded to good members of AW.

With sincere gratitude and appreciation,

:

Maryn,
You go girl.

Except for one beta, others asked for my honest appraisal, got it, then disappeared.

I have been betaing my book for the past three or four weeks. During that time, 14 people on this board have read all or part it, and for most of them, I returned the favor. Interestingly enough, the three people that helped me the most wanted nothing in return. I can't tell you how much stronger my book is now than it was a month ago. Yes, some people refused to listen to my comments about how to improve their book, but even their refusal to make any changes helped me see that I needed to be flexible in revising my own manuscript.

Now I only offer to swap one chapter at the beginning so I don't invest too much energy in making comments for someone who isn't receptive.

But everyone has helped me so much, and beta-ing their books taught me much about how to improve my own.

Prawn

Great post, Maryn.

My experience, FWIW:

I started writing while active on a fanfiction site and quickly found betas for short pieces. Most of those relationships were reciprocal. I also posted requests on non-writing forums relevant to the subject matter (BDSM, gay fiction). One piece reviewed by these people and friends will be published this Fall (probably).

Now, I'm getting to the point of writing longer pieces and don't feel comfortable asking most of those people to read. Fortunately, one established writer I met during all of this offered to stick with me through the entire process of editing and submitting my current manuscript (12K). That's still a WIP.

I can't think of anyone to approach with my novel-length ms, but by the time it's ready, I will probably have new contacts. Several people have given positive feedback on separate chapters over the past year.

I completely agree with Maryn, it seems like there are a lot of people who come onto forums such as this for feedback on their work and nothing else.

I think some wires have been crossed here. I believe, what Maryn was trying to say was that manuscripts being sent out for beta-ing should be as good as the writer can get it at that stage. Known plot holes fixed, characterisation as good as it can be and free from grammar and spelling mistakes.

If there are grammar and spelling mistakes then a quick read through should fix that. If there are technical aspects of writing you are not sure about, ask in the relevant forum (generally Basic Writing or Grammar and Syntax).

The reason for betas, as others have said, is to look at your work as a whole. They aren't there to rewrite your novel for you. They are there to comment on things you may haven't even thought about. A plot point that hasn't been tied up or some aspect of the story that hasn't been explained very well.

The problem with writing a novel is that we get so absorbed in the story line that it is constantly at the forefront of our minds. We might understand a character's feelings towards another because they live in our heads. A reader may not. That is where betas come in, to make sure your novel stands well as a whole.

I'm also in agreement with all those who have said it's best to read a first chapter before agreeing to a full read. If that first chapter doesn't hook a potential beta reader then it needs work. Politely ask why they don't want to read on and use their reply to improve that first chapter.

(Long post is long)

Maryn said:

Remus, I'm hoping that if you are not included at AW, it's because you choose to not be part of the community, not because we choose not to have you.

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No, it's because of who I am. I'd love to be part of the community, but I don't make friends easily.

Someone suggested bantering in Office Party. I don't have a lot of time for bantering, but even if I did, the last time I let my guard down on these forums it turned into a flamewar. The time before that it turned into a flamewar plus a stalker who followed me to my personal blog to flame me there. One time before that -- on another forum -- it turned into a flamewar, death threats, nasty lies sent to my employer, child services and the FBI got involved, and it was just a big mess. You can understand if I'm wary of casual banter with strangers.

I checked to see if you'd ever posted a first chapter at SYW, and was pleased to see you had, more than once. I was not pleased to see your rebuttal of the points some of the critiques made, also more than once. As one reply put it, the proper response to all feedback is heartfelt thanks, then to use or ignore the input as you feel best serves the work.

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Here we simply disagree. I think critique should be a dialog. Sometimes I do not understand a critique and I need to ask for clarification, and other times I want the critiquer's help in brainstorming a solution to the problem they've found. I have struck up dialogues with critique partners; I have never, ever gotten angry at them or dismissed their concerns without reason. That's the way I expect to be treated when I critique a piece, and I believe in the Golden Rule.

But it's clear that I'm the oddity, and as I said I am used to that. I'm glad for you that so many agree with your points, Maryn, and I hope you all get lots of values out of critiquing each others' work. Just be honest with yourselves; you are forming a clique, and you are excluding some who do not meet your arbitrary rules. Nothing wrong with that -- it's the way of the world -- but you need to understand where the set of rules that you all agree to will lead. Best of luck to you all.

Maryn said:

She's a perfect example of the goodhearted reader who continues to beta, where I'm more like the Grinch, whose heart was two sizes too small, although I have never tied antlers on a dog. Yet.

Maryn, who thrives on positive reinforcement, like everybody else, but can also handle hearing negatives stated tactfully

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Two things- the most important of which is let's not pick on the dogs.

Secondly, I've exchanged work with a number of people, both here and on other websites. I always begin with an exchange of a chapter or two - a few thousand words. In a number of cases, that's as far as we go.

The major reasons for me are that either the feedback I get on my work is not at all helpful, or that I don't like the work I read in exchange...sometimes it's poorly structured, sometimes it's just not something that holds my interest.

Sometimes I'm willing to continue, but the other person isn't. I assume the same reasons apply to them. One possible additional reason is, although I really don't try to be, my crits can sometimes sound harsher than intended.

I have, however, ended up exchanging full manuscripts with several people. Their work is good and they've helped me improve mine. I hope I've helped them also.

All I can say is, if you need help, keep trying. You'll eventually find someone who can help you...and who you can help.

RemusShepherd said:

Here we simply disagree. I think critique should be a dialog. Sometimes I do not understand a critique and I need to ask for clarification, and other times I want the critiquer's help in brainstorming a solution to the problem they've found.

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What is being flagged is responses that rebut, argue with or disparage the critique. Not acknowledge and expand upon it.

Maryn said:

lbender, the last work I had betas on, I killed five dogs as part of the plot. There were objections, especially as there was some vilification of some of the dogs. I eliminated the bad-mouthing of the breed and made three of the dogs' deaths unintended, happening only because a plan goes awry.

They were pretend dogs, remember!

Maryn, who wrote an erotic thriller

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Maryn, I'm a vet, so I've unfortunately killed my share of dogs - in my case, all really sick.

The part that scares me is your mentioning killing dogs and an erotic thriller in the same post.

"Shiver"

I've sent requests to 5 different people from this board who said they were looking for books to beta. I always send a chapter with my request so they can get a feel for my ability, style, and the book's voice. I never ask for a commitment since they are doing me a huge favor out of the kindness of their heart. Two of them very politely declined since they didn't feel the genre was for them. The other three, however, were gracious enough to actually read all 106,000 words and give feedback. Two of the three sent simple emails with a paragraph summarizing how they felt overall. The third, PorterStarrByrd, is reading a bit at a time and giving very substantive suggestions. He claims he's not editing, but it's pretty darn close. I have another, non-AW person also beta/editing and the setup works great. Porter has a low BS tolerance for the hard facts of the plot (which is spectacular) and doesn't hesitate to call me out on places that need work plot-wise. My other reader is female and catches things like character arc and believability and dialog that works and doesn't. Having two very different readers is really eye-opening. From now on, I want one of each.

In my opinion, here's what makes a beta reader great:

• Jotting down thoughts as they read through for the first time. Initial "raw" impressions of individual scenes are way more useful than a general overview after the fact.
• Honesty. If part is boring, say it. If your BS-meter is going off, say it. If part makes you laugh or cry, say it. Don't worry about the author's feelings. As Uncle Jim has said, a reader looking for a book is the most selfish person in the world. Their thoughts about a book ignore the feelings of the one who wrote it. Betas should do the same.
• A willingness to have a dialog with the author about what can be done better and what should just go away.
• The understanding that some of your suggestions will be ignored. The author has a vision for the story and if your suggestions (even good ones) take it outside the vision, they may get the boot.

Anyway, I just wanted to give props to the willing betas on this board. Also, to bring it back around to the topic at hand, Maryn has a great list that starts this off.
No dogs were harmed in the writing of this post...

When I first came here, I mistakenly asked for a beta reader, when what I wanted was a writing partner. And I asked for that way too soon. I wish this had been posted then.

Since then I have hung out, and made friends and learned a great deal. I have met several people who have agreed to read my stuff, and I met them by offering to beta for them.

Since I am still learning myself, I only offer my opinions on story lines and characterzation. If I can't spot passive voice in my own WIP, I sure won't be able to point it out in someone elses.

Thanks for writing this Maryn. Maybe it will save someone time and embarrasment.

This thread makes me realize how amazingly lucky I have been in finding the couple of betas/crit partners/writer buddies/whateveryouwanttocallthem folks that I have found here.

I can't imagine putting in the time it takes to crit a novel, then never hearing anything back. That would be upsetting, to say the least.

Yeah, you can get peed off. I've responded to things and never even got a rep. So you do get selective.

So, as we're all in this together, rest assured I'll ditch you all IF the big advance comes in.

No, only kidding.

This forum seems mainly populated by people who dig the craft of writing, in a groovy sort of 60s way, and we learn a sense of community: how we've all got a common goal and that some of us - and now I'm havering...

But there will be the drive-by writers, wanting to get told just how good they are.

The rest of us? We plod along regardless and contribute to the best writers' forum on the internet.

And yes alcohol has been punished before, between, and no doubt after this epigram.

Regards

Whacko

RemusShepherd said:

Here we simply disagree. I think critique should be a dialog. Sometimes I do not understand a critique and I need to ask for clarification, and other times I want the critiquer's help in brainstorming a solution to the problem they've found.

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My recollection (I think I was one of your critiquers) was that you responded to some of the critiques by saying, in essence, "You're wrong." You were polite about it, but you clearly thought the critter had missed the point and therefore they had read your story incorrectly. Bad form.

But it's clear that I'm the oddity, and as I said I am used to that. I'm glad for you that so many agree with your points, Maryn, and I hope you all get lots of values out of critiquing each others' work. Just be honest with yourselves; you are forming a clique, and you are excluding some who do not meet your arbitrary rules. Nothing wrong with that -- it's the way of the world -- but you need to understand where the set of rules that you all agree to will lead. Best of luck to you all.

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You're not an oddity because you can't join the Cool Kids Club, you're an oddity because by your own admission, you make no attempt to socialize but then resent the fact that people don't want to socialize with you. There's nothing "arbitrary" about not wanting to crit someone who makes no effort to lubricate the wheels of social interaction even a little and who makes critiquing them a trying experience.

I don't think anyone would accuse me of being overly gregarious or cliquey. But I like to think when I am ready to find a beta for my completed novel, I'll be able to find someone willing... (Looks around, lower lip trembling.)

Not yet having beta'd with anyone here at AW, what does a beta reader expect for their time and suggestions beyond words of thanks? Do betas expect ongoing dialogue about the project? Updates? Responses to suggestions? Gifts and accolades?

I may be misunderstanding but some former betas have mentioned they "only" received thanks from their writers and that's left me a bit curious.