Crawling inside a character's head...

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MagicWriter

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This is my nemesis right now.

When to crawl inside a character's head, and how far.

Its like this:
Writing writing writing...you have things going well, but where, when and why do you decide to stop plot action and insert character thoughts? How do you know when your readers need this? How deep into the character's head do you dive?

So I was just wondering how other writers tackle this. I have feeling it has a lot to do with style and voice, and there is no answer, but I thought I'd put it out there and see what I get back.

Thanks for the feedback. :hi:
 

LJD

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Pay attention to how it's done in the books you read. job's advice in this thread (post #8) might help.
 

indwig

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where, when and why do you decide to stop plot action and insert character thoughts? How do you know when your readers need this? How deep into the character's head do you dive?

Shouldn't your main character drive the plot? Shouldn't their actions, their feelings, their thought process drive the plot? Even when they don't think, if something is an instinctive reaction, there's still an aftermath to it (Oh man, I just dodged a bullet! I can't die now; my family needs me!).

Stick it in where it feels organic.

I will add that I despise big chunks of character thought, especially if it's between bits of dialogue. I'll often have to backtrack to remember what had been said.
 
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Honestly I feel my characters write themselves. I just seem to know what they would say in certain situations and really its more of a battle of deciding whether or not to include said comment/thought/dialogue.

The trick is writing little interviews or time where they just hangout with friends and chit chat. This usually gets me into the groove and I can feel what they want to say and their emotions. Also I make my characters from well defined stereotypes like a chatty popular girl and change things up slightly so to give that stereotype more flavor. Evangelion is pretty much the bible of this approach since every character is based off a stereotype.

The reason this method is so good is because the characters thoughts are so predictable and just come easy. its nice actually and can make some interesting stories
 

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Well to be honest I'm not sure how to answer your question, as so often my plots to be inside my characters mind.

I really mean whole world generated in their mind.

I'd say don't worry about it, and just write.
 

Filigree

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Seconding this method of character 'interviews'. Except all too often, my characters won't shut up. Leading to me getting strange looks when I'm in the coffee shop with a notebook, as I'm muttering 'Honey, nobody cares. I'm your only fan, and I don't care.' (Solution to that: wear an obvious headset.)
 

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Basically, you do it when you need to do it.

But you probably don't need to worry so much about this on the first draft. Write write write, get to the end. Then, when you're done and you're reading it, if you're missing any 'thought bits' then they'll be noticeable
 

RN Hill

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Basically, what everyone else said. Your characters should be driving the plot, and you should know them VERY well by now.

If you're writing and you want to put in your character's thoughts, then by all means, put them in. Nothing's right or wrong. That's why we get to edit. If you get to your editing and think, "wow, this doesn't add anything at all," then you can take it out.

As I write, my characters give me their thoughts, and when I edit/revise, I see places where I can hear my characters giving me something else (usually a sarcastic little comment that just makes the scene pop). But I don't consciously think about it when I'm writing. If it works at the time, it goes in.
 

Layla Nahar

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stop plot action and insert character thoughts

This part of your question doesn't sit right for me. Thoughts advance the story just as much as actions. One way to look at the difference is - say you have a busy day, at some point you are going to need to rest, or you are going to have to take stock of all the balls you're juggling, for example. Well, imagine your character's day. Has it been busy? At some point they'll need to take a break, or they'll need to give some thought to everything that's on their plate. Write that accordingly.
 

Bufty

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You raised connected issues two years ago!!

POV choice is relevant here regarding whether or not one does or should or can 'crawl into a character's head' as you put it.

If a character's thoughts are relevant and can be mentioned, mention them. If not, don't. Only you know if they are relevant.
 
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MagicWriter

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You raised connected issues two years ago!!

POV choice is relevant here regarding whether or not one does or should or can 'crawl into a character's head' as you put it.

If a character's thoughts are relevant and can be mentioned, mention them. If not, don't. Only you know if they are relevant.

Sorry, I don't do 'negative'. Never even read past your snide opener.
 

MagicWriter

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This part of your question doesn't sit right for me. Thoughts advance the story just as much as actions. One way to look at the difference is - say you have a busy day, at some point you are going to need to rest, or you are going to have to take stock of all the balls you're juggling, for example. Well, imagine your character's day. Has it been busy? At some point they'll need to take a break, or they'll need to give some thought to everything that's on their plate. Write that accordingly.

I guess what I'm saying is when a character is doing any kind of action and their thoughts are put into the story. I am having a difficult time deciding when, and where to do that, that's all. I'll try your method this weekend, see how it goes. Thanks for the feedback.
 

quicklime

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This is my nemesis right now.

When to crawl inside a character's head, and how far.

Its like this:
Writing writing writing...you have things going well, but where, when and why do you decide to stop plot action and insert character thoughts? How do you know when your readers need this? How deep into the character's head do you dive?

So I was just wondering how other writers tackle this. I have feeling it has a lot to do with style and voice, and there is no answer, but I thought I'd put it out there and see what I get back.

Thanks for the feedback. :hi:


I think this is a false dichotomy: if you are really stopping the action to.address the characters thoughts you are doing it "wrong" already.

It was a Raven .25, a pussie's gun. That didnt matter, he was shooting at ME, and a quarter-inch is a big-assed hole when it goes into YOUR body. I ran. Fuck ballistic gelatin, fuck mortality reports, I ran. The first shot went over my head, and the second proved my luck was played out.

Not great, but voice or thoughts are part of the action, there is no stop to say "i thought that a .25 was..."
 
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quicklime

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Put another way:EVERYTHING should be, assuming you write in first or third, biased by your pov characters voice....a over-educated lit prof won't see or report the same thhings a dockworker wil, and you cant just divorce the events from the people narrating them.t
 

Bufty

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Your choice, but the advice following the initial observation was positive.

And the opening comment showed I took the trouble to see if I could find anything out about you before replying. Background often helps one better understand the question.

Sorry, I don't do 'negative'. Never even read past your snide opener.
 
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Ken

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I guess you just replicate what they're mulling over. No more; no less. There's probably a tendency to offer too much and make characters too self-aware. Making them shallow, superficial idiots is a no-no as well. Settle on a happy medium: semi-shallow/semi-self-aware, with instances of "dur dur dur" and "ah-ha ah-ha ah-ha."
 
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Imbroglio

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I guess you just replicate what they're mulling over. No more; no less. There's probably a tendency to offer too much and make characters too self-aware. Making them shallow, superficial idiots is a no-no as well. Settle on a happy medium: semi-shallow/semi-self-aware, with instances of "dur dur dur" and "ah-ha ah-ha ah-ha."

This, pretty much.

I suffer from the same worry as you, OP. The best thing you can really do is just write to your hearts content and see if your final product actually says what you wanted it to say in the first place.

For example, in my novel I want my main character to come off as a boy who's responses to problems are marred by the cancer of his early life and the significant amount of public attention he got after his cancer was cured. However, if I never have him thinking about his past life in the novel, no one will be able to gather that this part of his life even mattered. So I might want to go back in and find an appropriate place for him to either speak about or reflect on an event that's relevant to this idea.

His actions beyond this will also reflect the idea. It only takes a little groundwork on the part of your character's thoughts for your readers to draw conclusions from their actions. Be smart, and be concise.
 

Once!

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It's our old friend - show, not tell.

The reader needs to know what your main character is thinking so that they can empathise with them. If we imagine that we are inside the story then the plot becomes more vivid and intense. It feels as if the story is happening to us.

But ... it can very easily be overdone. Too much thinking can slow the book down. It can also leave very little room for the reader to make their own mind up. I read a book recently where the author described it as like a playwright rushing onto the stage in the middle of the play to explain what was going on.

The alternative is to show what our main character is thinking by what they say and do. Instead of saying that "Fred was angry with Wilma because ...", show Fred doing something angrily. If we know Fred well enough, we will be expecting him to be angry.

Even in first person POV, there ought to be feelings and thoughts that are not expressed directly. These could be thoughts that the main character doesn't realise that he or she has. Or they could be thoughts that we fully expect him or her to have.

The trick seems to be to have a mixture of described feelings and observed feelings - of both show and tell.

First, tell me what your characters is thinking, especially at the beginning of the book. Then show me what they are thinking by how they act and speak. Eventually you won't need to tell me what they are thinking - I will know them well enough to work it out for myself.

With one or two rare exceptions, the best writing isn't in high definition, 4K widescreen television where every pixel is pin sharp. Instead, it is caricature or impressionist painting, where we use a relatively few lines to hint at the full picture. The reader supplies the missing information.

I do feel your pain. Whenever I edit I am constantly tweaking this element - adding thoughts in to some scenes and taking them out of others. It's a bit like seasoning a meal. We need just enough but not too much.
 

Jamesaritchie

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I don't even think about it. For me, it's a complete non-issue, one of those things that will probably go wrong every time, if you try to do it by some formula, or on a percentage basis, or because you wonder if readers need it here, and not there.

I just tell a story filled with real people. I write down what a real person would think and say about the situation at hand. It's this simple.

As for how deep you go, you mean there's a choice?
 

Debbie V

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If you're writing first person, the entire narration is the character's thoughts.

I always ask myself this question: Does the reader need to know this, does he need it now? The thoughts have to add to the story, develop character, something. If they don't, I leave them out.

In general, deeper is better, but some things can be glossed over.

There are some things we do without thinking. There are other things that require more thought. If you are writing a book about a six year old learning to tie his shoes, the thoughts describing every successful step might matter. If the story contains an adult who happens to put on shoes, no need to show how they're tied unless those shoelaces become part of the plot - untie fast and get used for another task - or go to character. Perhaps he always wraps the right lace over the left lace because of an ancient superstition and this time he can't do it. Then, the reader needs to know what he thinks.
 

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POV stands for "point of view", not "point of thought". Concentrate more on seeing the story through the character's eyes, less on pondering it though the character's thoughts. That doesn't mean not to insert thoughts ever, but it is a caution. Far too many stories I've seen in manuscript wallow in character thoughts at the expense of character action, observation and interaction with other characters.

caw
 

Jamesaritchie

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POV stands for "point of view", not "point of thought". Concentrate more on seeing the story through the character's eyes, less on pondering it though the character's thoughts. That doesn't mean not to insert thoughts ever, but it is a caution. Far too many stories I've seen in manuscript wallow in character thoughts at the expense of character action, observation and interaction with other characters.

caw

True. The difficult thing for many who try writing first person is remembering that the story happens outside the POV character, out in the real world, not inside him. Thoughts matter, and should be used, but doing so too often is bad.
 
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