Is it only about belief?

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A.V. Hollingshead

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This is something I've been tossing about in my mind for a while, even exploring in my writing. I'll preface with the fact that I am a nonbeliever. Atheist for as long as I knew what the word meant. But I find religion to be a fascinating thing, and while certain sects of it are not my cup of tea, I find followers of most religions to be amiable enough. But I don't have any particularly close friends who are religious, so I'll ask here where there are probably a few more people of faith.

Is religion just about belief? It is the word we use most in religious debates. Do you believe in God? Do you believe that Christ is the savior? But I can't help but think that there is more to it than just belief. I toy with the thought of meeting God, or some other deity, and I ask myself "if it wasn't an issue of belief, would I be religious?" That is, if I knew Jesus Christ was our savior (just as an example), would I become a Christian? My answer is no. Even if I believed in everything he did, even if this hypothetical version of Christ was near identical to me in ever way, I would not follow him, worship him, revere him, pray to him... I just couldn't. I think about how people say "serial killer X/dictator Y isn't a real Christian, because he doesn't follow the teachings of Christ", which is something I get. Because, really, they aren't.

So, here's the question. If you wholeheartedly believe in Christ, but do not follow his teachings, perhaps even actively hate him, are you still a Christian? I would say no, but I am an outsider looking in. This applies to any religion, by the way, I'm just using Christianity as the easy example.
 

KODB

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Good starting point for a discussion

I think you need to establish what you mean by "belief". I'm guessing you use the word to mean "intellectual assent" and nothing more. But when a Christian says he believes, he adds a heavy subtext that can best be described as "trust". I believe in the historicity of, say, President Clemenceau of France. But I wouldn't necessarily trust him any farther than I could stretch out his mustache. But I do put my trust in God, whether it makes sense or not. That makes me a theist. Further, I put my trust in Christ, which makes me a Christian.

I believe in Clemenceau, but that doesn't make me a Clemenceaunian. I believe in the reality of Newt Gingrich, but that doesn't make me a Republican.

I forget which Letter it's from: "You believe; well and good. The devils also believe, and tremble."

Except there's more. You mention (rightly) the following of Jesus's teachings. While nobody's ever going to be a perfect specimen of Christ-likeness, we are expected to at least try to do right. In fact, Jesus himself made the distinction: in a parable (I paraphrase) the "religious" types are shocked that they're being rejected; Jesus lists all the things they didn't do for other people, and says, "I never knew you." (Note that fact: he calls them out for what they didn't do, not for what they did.)

So, no. It's not all about thinking he was real. It's about who you trust and how you treat yourself and others. You can accept his divinity without accepting him.

Remember this all from the Christian perspective. I can't really speak from authority about the other religions.
 

aruna

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So, here's the question. If you wholeheartedly believe in Christ, but do not follow his teachings, perhaps even actively hate him, are you still a Christian? I would say no, but I am an outsider looking in. This applies to any religion, by the way, I'm just using Christianity as the easy example.


Before any of your questions can be answered it would be important to clarify definitions.
I don't believe in a God sitting up in heaven, judging between sinners and non-sinners, sending the former to hell and the latter to heaven.

My definition of God is of pure spirit without beginning or end; an ocean of nothing but spirit penetrating everything that can be seen or heard or even thought, and who is the basis of all life and of my own consciousness, and of true happiness and love. And I don't just believe in such a God, I know it exists; I know through direct experience, and you could, too, if you really, really wanted. (I was an atheist too, btw!)

As to your other questions: I do believe that Jesus was a man who really lived, and who had perfect and permanent experience of God, which makes him the enduring power that he is. And I believe that loving and following Jesus will bring a Christian closer to God. And yes, to be called a Christian one would have to accept Christ as one's personal saviour and follow him.

I just don't believe that Christ is the only saviour. There are other men and women of other cultures who have had the same vision he had, and who are just as good guides to the experience of God as defined above. In that sense I am not a Christian in the orthodeox sense. But I am happy to go to church occasionally; Christian hymns can move me to tears, and bring me to that experience. Listen to Panis Angelicus or practically anything from Mozart's requiem on YouTube; you don't have to be a Christian or a believer to be moved to the core! I love Christmas in the traditional sense as the birth of Christ. I think the Sermon on the Mount is probably the best recipe for life on earth ever written anywhere by anyone.
In other words: I believe in Christ, but I do not call myself a Christian. (Or, for that matter, a Buddhist, Hindu, Jew, Moslem, or any other member of any other religion).

I think experience, not belief or faith, is the key to truly understanding any religion. And at that point you don't mind if a lot of it is just dogma, or ritual, because you understand it all as allegorical. At least, that's my way.
 
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Rufus Coppertop

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I think Aruna's answered this beautifully but I'll add a few thoughts of my own.

There is belief as intellectual assent as KODB said, and there is engagement and practice. From engagement and practice comes behaviour and experience.

From experience, belief becomes something more than intellectual assent. One knows that there is something up with the cosmos and that religion and spirituality have definite value.
 
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Mpride

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Is religion just about belief? It is the word we use most in religious debates. Do you believe in God?


'Proof' satisfies the human need to be certain that 'Truth' is protected. It is reasonable and necessarily cautious to calibrate a universal understanding of 'The Truth,' so that fallacy does not dominate any field of study or thought meant for provable fact (like science or math for instance).

I believe evidence of God is circumstantial- but does it pass the muster of scientific reasoning, that's debatable. I could be wrong, but I'm certain I am not. I for one don't believe that leaving room for doubt (according only to scientific standard of study and proof) is necessarily weakening to my conviction there is a God, or that doubt undermines the basic foundation of belief; I think overly self-righteousness is far more damaging.

I beleve most atheists are after one particular admission in religious debates; the admission of doubt. Most "non-believers' are actually successful at proving the fallacy in the faithful's argument simply on the basis of ' quantifiable proof' according to scientific standards (by the way-- I flat-out reject the notion that somehow science and faith are at odds-- I believe they complement one another quite well). However, consider this: one cannot possibly assert that the TRUTH is no religion possesses the whole truth without first obtaining superior comprehensive knowledge of all things that they claim no one religion possesses. It is as narrow-minded to claim that one religion is right as it is to claim that one way to think about all religions is right.

So we are all back to square one- applying PROOF and REASON to matters of science and faith until the two complement providing one truth. The fact is there are not multiple truths, but one truth. As we enhance our scientific technology to detect that truth and improve our understanding of the universe, I am certain the knowledge we obtain will compel our reason to accept in greater consensus the possibility of a Higher Being, if not through overwhelming evidence, then at least through tempered passions and a wary self-righteousness by the many more unanswerable questions we raise.

Who (or if) God is depends upon what tradition or what faith an individual was raised believing, but to dismiss His existence altogether due to frustrations associated with a human failure to establish unanimous consensus on His nature is simply erroneous in my opinion. Could I be wrong, again... perhaps. But I am as certain as the next I am not.
 

AVbd

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That's an interesting question. I am an atheist. And I think one of the interesting things about the way we describe what we ‘believe’ is that we tend to use the word ‘am’ or ‘are’ or another variant — like I did in the previous sentence.

I think many religions are more about identity and culture — who we ‘are’ — than they are about actual belief. I used to be a devout Orthodox Christian, and much of my adherance to the religion wasn't so much about belief — belief was assumed — it was more about being part of the church — part of the community — and just striving toward... I guess forgiveness, and love from God...

Perhaps that was just me, but I know that at least part of what made me basically cling to my faith before I left the church was just that I identified so much with the beauty and the emotion of the church, and because my family were so close in our faith, it was almost like betraying my family.

So yeah, I'm not religious, but hopefully that's still informative or something.
 

readlorey

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In my opinion religion is a matter of faith.
 

Anacry

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This is something I've been tossing about in my mind for a while, even exploring in my writing. I'll preface with the fact that I am a nonbeliever. Atheist for as long as I knew what the word meant. But I find religion to be a fascinating thing, and while certain sects of it are not my cup of tea, I find followers of most religions to be amiable enough. But I don't have any particularly close friends who are religious, so I'll ask here where there are probably a few more people of faith.

Is religion just about belief? It is the word we use most in religious debates. Do you believe in God? Do you believe that Christ is the savior? But I can't help but think that there is more to it than just belief. I toy with the thought of meeting God, or some other deity, and I ask myself "if it wasn't an issue of belief, would I be religious?" That is, if I knew Jesus Christ was our savior (just as an example), would I become a Christian? My answer is no. Even if I believed in everything he did, even if this hypothetical version of Christ was near identical to me in ever way, I would not follow him, worship him, revere him, pray to him... I just couldn't. I think about how people say "serial killer X/dictator Y isn't a real Christian, because he doesn't follow the teachings of Christ", which is something I get. Because, really, they aren't.

So, here's the question. If you wholeheartedly believe in Christ, but do not follow his teachings, perhaps even actively hate him, are you still a Christian? I would say no, but I am an outsider looking in. This applies to any religion, by the way, I'm just using Christianity as the easy example.


You don't have to follow the teachings. You don't have to be super epic awesome person praying every day and going to church and so on.

The entire thing is just accepting Jesus into your heart.

That's it.

In FACT, if you do all the super awesome epic person stuff and you don't accept Jesus into your heart, then the super awesome epic stuff is just dust in the wind.

The 'hating him' part poses a difficulty.
If you do hate him, you have to say, but I'm curious as to why?

@KODB - That's what Jesus meant when he said 'I never knew you', to the religious people. Because they were just doing some good things, but were doing them all on their own steam. They never had Jesus in their heart, thus he never knew them.

@Aruna - I agree with you. God as a pure spirit. The Holy trinity of "God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit". The Holy Spirit is the one we feel here on Earth, the blanket of pure goodness as it were. God the Father is the one sitting up in Heaven, who sent his son down to save us, and the Son is Jesus, who lived down on Earth and went through torment that we may be able to go through him to get to Heaven.
 
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Guardian

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This is something I've been tossing about in my mind for a while, even exploring in my writing. I'll preface with the fact that I am a nonbeliever. Atheist for as long as I knew what the word meant. But I find religion to be a fascinating thing, and while certain sects of it are not my cup of tea, I find followers of most religions to be amiable enough. But I don't have any particularly close friends who are religious, so I'll ask here where there are probably a few more people of faith.

Is religion just about belief? It is the word we use most in religious debates. Do you believe in God? Do you believe that Christ is the savior? But I can't help but think that there is more to it than just belief. I toy with the thought of meeting God, or some other deity, and I ask myself "if it wasn't an issue of belief, would I be religious?" That is, if I knew Jesus Christ was our savior (just as an example), would I become a Christian? My answer is no. Even if I believed in everything he did, even if this hypothetical version of Christ was near identical to me in ever way, I would not follow him, worship him, revere him, pray to him... I just couldn't. I think about how people say "serial killer X/dictator Y isn't a real Christian, because he doesn't follow the teachings of Christ", which is something I get. Because, really, they aren't.

So, here's the question. If you wholeheartedly believe in Christ, but do not follow his teachings, perhaps even actively hate him, are you still a Christian? I would say no, but I am an outsider looking in. This applies to any religion, by the way, I'm just using Christianity as the easy example.


I completely understand where you are coming from, and am even glad to see that I'm not alone. Sometimes I wish that I could honestly believe in any religion, so at least I'd have faith in what might happen to me in death, even if it was false. But I digress.

To answer your question, I've always been told a Christian is a follower of Christ. So by that definition, you answered your own question. They belive, but they don't follow, they aren't technically Christians. (Though in my book, LOTS of people I know aren't Christian, because they don't really follow the teachings. But they say they are, so they are. An outsider might say a character who believes in God/Jesus but doesn't follow or hates him is just a troubled Christian.)
 

DeleyanLee

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Is religion just about belief?

Depends upon the religion and if it demands belief. Christianity does. Many do. Not all do. Mine doesn't.

I'm Asatru, which is a neo-pagan religion following the Norse pantheon. The gods don't care if I believe in them, as long as I do the proper rites at the proper times. If they want me to believe in them, the onus is on them to provide me with whatever experience I need to believe. In over a decade, they haven't bothered and I don't believe, but I do the rites and we're both happy with each other. Life is good.
 

Purple Rose

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I don't believe in a God sitting up in heaven, judging between sinners and non-sinners, sending the former to hell and the latter to heaven.

I just don't believe that Christ is the only saviour. There are other men and women of other cultures who have had the same vision he had, and who are just as good guides to the experience of God as defined above.

I think experience, not belief or faith, is the key to truly understanding any religion. And at that point you don't mind if a lot of it is just dogma, or ritual, because you understand it all as allegorical. At least, that's my way.

Thanks for your excellent post, aruna. I'm sorry about butchering your sentences for reference to my response.

Raised a Hindu in a multi-religious country, I turned to Christianity in my early thirties. Like you, aruna, I believed that i was a Christian by accepting Jesus Christ as my lord and saviour. However, our Presbyterian church also emphasises evangelism which i personally find offensive especially when surrounded by Buddhists, Taoists, Hindus and Muslims. I could not accept the idea that "my God" was the only God and better and stronger than anyone else's. I was also told that as Jesus is the ONLY saviour, I had to pray for my non-Christian friends and family and encourage them to convert to Christianity. So after fifteen years I shelved my bible, stopped going to church, stopped saying the Lord's prayer and went back to a bedtime routine of reciting a Sanskrit mantra.

I never, ever stopped believing in Christ, though. I just decided that exclusivity and evangelism was a bit too much to ask for in return for my faith.

My definition of God these days is much like aruna's "..of pure spirit without beginning or end; an ocean of nothing but spirit penetrating everything that can be seen or heard or even thought, and who is the basis of all life and of my own consciousness, and of true happiness and love..."

And with that belief, I feel safe and I feel good about myself. It makes me want to be a better person and do good things. This is my religion and i feel I have come full circle.
 

Fulk

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It probably depends on what the specifics of the 'belief' are. To follow your example, there are some historians that believe Jesus may have been a real historical figure, but aren't necessarily Christians. This is because historicity doesn't imply divinity. And then of course there are other religious people: whether they are Muslim or Buddhist or Jewish, etc. etc., who believe Jesus existed, but don't believe he was a messiah or god. That belief in the divinity of Jesus, I think, is probably necessary by most people's definition to be a Christian.

If somebody believes wholeheartedly in the tenets of Christianity and that Jesus is god, then they are by definition a Christian. Others may disagree, but I think that goes even for the people who don't follow all of the teachings, for better or worse (because there are good teachings that are ignored by the Westboro types and there are some rather ugly moral implications that decent people ignore, and there's scriptural basis for both).

So, I think it's more based on what the belief is in or what it entails. If you read the various religious texts and try to absorb the good in all of them, but don't believe there was a divine origin, and don't believe in the supernatural, you're still an atheist.

It's all about the specifics of belief. A person who believes in an all-knowing, all-powerful, all-good personal is making a very different set of claims from the person who believes in a shapeless, formless, impersonal cosmic 'it' that had something to do with the universe's creation.

Someone who believes in a god but hates it is probably what is called a maltheist: they believe a god (or gods/goddesses) exists, but that god is evil.
 

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Beyond Belief

In Christianity you need to start with "belief". The belief is not something God needs, you need it because you can’t accept the gift of salvation if you don’t even believe that the gift is there sitting under the tree waiting for you. Once you believe that it is there, you can pick it up and receive it - then begins the journey. You grow in your faith and along the way you mess up – trust me, but that is where the Grace of God comes in to play, but it all starts with belief.

There once was this great song by Petra, a Christian Rock band and it was titled, Beyond Belief. It had two meanings of course with the one being that Christians should move beyond just that initial stage of belief to something deeper. It is a scary process one that needs discipline attached to it, but it makes for a richer journey.
 
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Well, one man I knew got rally angry at God and while still believed he existed, would not go to church and stopped calling himself a Christian. He was really angry over the loss of his wife.

So I'm not entirely sure what to call that, but it seems to fit within the OP.
 

Mark W.

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I am a born again Christian in my beliefs and in Christ I place my Faith.

Is religion just about belief?

It depends on the religion. for example, Modern Judiasm does not require belief as I understand it. The be Jewish is to follow the Law and the Traditions of Moses, but belief is not required. Christianity requries belief in God and Jesus, His Son.

So, here's the question. If you wholeheartedly believe in Christ, but do not follow his teachings, perhaps even actively hate him, are you still a Christian? I would say no, but I am an outsider looking in.

I would say no as well. In terms of Christianity, simple belief is not enough. It also requires action. Jesus said, "You say you love me. Well and good, but if you love me, follow my commandments."
 

Siri Kirpal

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This is something I've been tossing about in my mind for a while, even exploring in my writing. I'll preface with the fact that I am a nonbeliever. Atheist for as long as I knew what the word meant. But I find religion to be a fascinating thing, and while certain sects of it are not my cup of tea, I find followers of most religions to be amiable enough. But I don't have any particularly close friends who are religious, so I'll ask here where there are probably a few more people of faith.

Is religion just about belief? It is the word we use most in religious debates. Do you believe in God? Do you believe that Christ is the savior? But I can't help but think that there is more to it than just belief. I toy with the thought of meeting God, or some other deity, and I ask myself "if it wasn't an issue of belief, would I be religious?" That is, if I knew Jesus Christ was our savior (just as an example), would I become a Christian? My answer is no. Even if I believed in everything he did, even if this hypothetical version of Christ was near identical to me in ever way, I would not follow him, worship him, revere him, pray to him... I just couldn't. I think about how people say "serial killer X/dictator Y isn't a real Christian, because he doesn't follow the teachings of Christ", which is something I get. Because, really, they aren't.

So, here's the question. If you wholeheartedly believe in Christ, but do not follow his teachings, perhaps even actively hate him, are you still a Christian? I would say no, but I am an outsider looking in. This applies to any religion, by the way, I'm just using Christianity as the easy example.

Sat Nam! (literally "Truth Name"--a Sikh greeting)

This is a pretty old thread, but I'm answering it anyway.

NO, religion is not just about belief. Not for me, and not for lots and lots of religious people. (Though I allow as how that may be the sum total of it for many.) I say this not just as a devout Sikh, but also as a former organizer of interfaith worship services.

Religion is best when it's about experience. I don't have to believe in God, but I do experience the Divine.

Religion is also about practice, and that's true of a lot of religions. Sometimes, it's just mindless ritual, of course, which is a pity. But religious practice is there largely to make the experience possible.

Oh, yes, I've posted a conversation with an atheist in the Memoir section of SYW. It's titled "the wedding," if any of you wish to read it.

Blessings,

Siri Kirpal Kaur Khalsa
 
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richcapo

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I've spoken to many born again Christians for whom all that matters is faith in Jesus. Have faith in Jesus and one can act however one likes: one can murder, rape, steal, et cetera, and it won't matter, because salvation is attained "through faith, not works." Per these people I've spoken to, even Hitler goes to Heaven because he believed in Jesus.

Everyone else goes to Hell, no matter how good their conduct is.
 

Siri Kirpal

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I've spoken to many born again Christians for whom all that matters is faith in Jesus. Have faith in Jesus and one can act however one likes: one can murder, rape, steal, et cetera, and it won't matter, because salvation is attained "through faith, not works." Per these people I've spoken to, even Hitler goes to Heaven because he believed in Jesus.

Everyone else goes to Hell, no matter how good their conduct is.

Sat Nam! (literally "Truth Name"--a Sikh greeting)

As stated above, belief may be all that matters for some people; that's their privilege. But it's not the sum total for all religions or all religious people or even all Christians. (My husband used to be a Methodist, so I know that one for sure.)

Blessings,

Siri Kirpal
 

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In answer to you title question. At first yes....then nope. Have to start with faith. The rest follows if you seek it.
 

richcapo

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Sat Nam! (literally "Truth Name"--a Sikh greeting)

As stated above, belief may be all that matters for some people; that's their privilege. But it's not the sum total for all religions or all religious people or even all Christians. (My husband used to be a Methodist, so I know that one for sure.)

Blessings,

Siri Kirpal
I didn't say otherwise. And I made no blanket generalization.
 

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I think it is about belief to the extent that virtuous behavior and emotional states and all that other stuff can occur or not occur for a person with any religion. Thus it is not, in a phenomenological sense, caused by the belief.
 
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