Are you going for mainstream or self-publishing?

HoneyBadger said:

And the irony is that editors, by and large, set the trends, so agents can't really win.

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And, it seems, neither can the writers. :/

Again. It goes back to that honest self-introspection. And not just about the skills you can bring as a marketing person, an editor, a book cover designer, a web designer, a sales person.

How many rejections of your book do you go through before you say enough is enough and go another route? It's about personal limitations and what the writer is willing to do before they draw the line and go in another direction. And have the confidence that their book really is the best it can be and that it really is a good book.

I do have to agree with DL, though. Clearly, the book was good enough to get the attention of an editor and went on to all the accolades. Prior to that, how many people would have sung the song 'well, if it didn't get the attention of an agent, maybe it's not ready'.

Apparently it was. Someone still bought it and there it sits today so that reasoning kind of falls flat in the face of that book.

Amadan said:

You use a lot of the same absolutist rhetoric the more virulent anti-trade-publishing folks do, talking about working with the publishing industry in terms of "faith" and a belief that agents are literary gods who "always" know what sells.

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Absolutist rhetoric? Really? Well, that is odd, isn't it? I've been on AW for 5 years and have never, ever been an advocate of self publishing. Until rather recently I bit--hook, line & sinker--the idea that "legitimate" publishing was absolutely the only way to go and it was far better to never be published then to muck about in those shit-filled stalls of self-delusion.

So if you think I'm here to sell self-publishing or am taking up some absolutist mantle, I'm sorry to disappoint you. I understand what a racket self-pubbing can be, I'm well aware of its pitfalls and I've seen more crappy writing in the self-publishing realm than just about anywhere.

I'm just plainly stating that my belief, yes belief in the standard publishing route as the only way to fly has been thoroughly shaken. And whether "virulent" self-pubbers have use similar terminology, I don't really care.

Am I to be drummed off AW now that I'm not spouting the received wisdom about the Great and Terrible Oz? I'm just speaking my mind here. It doesn't make me a virulent absolutist.

39 agents said "I can't sell this." Yet an editor decided it could sell. A novel that's good enough will sell. There is certainly a degree of luck involved in whether it will sell with the first two or three agents you sub it to, or whether it takes several dozen rejections before you find a publisher. There probably are other books that could have been published, but the author gave up after 30 rejections and self-published.

Let me ask you this: suppose Lionel Shriver had given up after that 39th agent and decided to self-publish her book. What do you think the odds are that as a self-published book, it would have become a best-seller, an Orange prize winner, and a motion picture?

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If you'd actually read my posts regarding Ms. Shriver you'd see that I allowed for the fact that she was already a published author with connections and she did not, in fact, self publish We Need To Talk About Kevin.

But you know, if it serves your beliefs to tell yourself I'm here stumping for Publish America or whatever, have at it.

It's not like commercial and self-publishing are mutually exclusive.

It depends on the book and the author.

They are publishing methods, not religions.

I get annoyed when people treat them as religions.

ArchaWriter said:

I keep thinking about an Ebook myself.
But I'm not convinced it's the promised land.
I'm thinking of PDF.
Something universal.
I don't need Amazon getting a dollar.
What about you?
Are you shooting for a publishing house or your own way?
I'm just curious. I have these thoughts every day.

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I pursue traditional publishing with everything I write until I've exhausted all options with it. This past fall I self-published a historical novel I wrote in 2009 after it failed to sell to a traditional publisher through two years of submitting via two agents. I was told over and over that it was too "niche" even for historical fiction. I'm glad I self-published it because it's found a lot of very happy readers who were looking for something in that niche. But it's not making me money.

What you choose depends on your goals. My goal is to make a living from writing, so self-publishing isn't a great option for me. It's a last resort, when I just care about connecting with a smaller audience. But my primary care is paying my bills, so everything goes to traditional outlets first to give it the best possible chance to make me some dough.

Devil Ledbetter said:

I'm just plainly stating that my belief, yes belief in the standard publishing route as the only way to fly has been thoroughly shaken.

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I don't think anyone has said standard publishing is the only way to fly. But for most folks, it's better than jumping off a cliff in a home-made glider.

Am I too be drummed off AW now that I'm not spouting the received wisdom about the Great and Terrible Oz?

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But you know, if it serves your beliefs to tell yourself I'm here stumping for Publish America or whatever, have at it.

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Aren't you being a little bit dramatic?

bearilou said:

And, it seems, neither can the writers. :/

Again. It goes back to that honest self-introspection. And not just about the skills you can bring as a marketing person, an editor, a book cover designer, a web designer, a sales person.

How many rejections of your book do you go through before you say enough is enough and go another route?

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Oh, but didn't you get the memo? If the agents don't think it's good enough, clearly it's not good enough. Period. End of discussion.

I do have to agree with DL, though. Clearly, the book was good enough to get the attention of an editor and went on to all the accolades. Prior to that, how many people would have sung the song 'well, if it didn't get the attention of an agent, maybe it's not ready'.

Apparently it was. Someone still bought it and there it sits today so that reasoning kind of falls flat in the face of that book.

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It's really a tautology, isn't it? If it sold, it must have been good enough. If it didn't sell, obviously it was bad. If several agents turned their noses up at it, then obviously it wasn't good enough. Um, until and editor picked it up and it won a big award and became a bestseller: then it was good enough after all.

Somewhere in there the fact that a great book was deemed unsaleable by dozens of professional gatekeepers ..... the same gatekeepers we're expected to prostrate ourselves before because of their vast good taste and marketing wisdom, gets conveniently excused.

Mainstream. I equate self-publishing with the derogatory term "vanity press." In my mind, self-pubbing is giving up. It means I couldn't make it as a writer. I'd rather not be published at all then go that route.

I think that's the problem with self publishing is that it *rarely* makes the writer money. I highly doubt most writers write for the money. Face it, you can make more money flipping burgers. And while some self pubs do make a decent living, it is a tiny percentage of them.

At the end of the day, there really is only one path for a writer who wants to write for a living imo.

Devil Ledbetter said:

Absolutist rhetoric? Really? Well, that is odd, isn't it? I've been on AW for 5 years and have never, ever been an advocate of self publishing. Until rather recently I bit--hook, line & sinker--the idea that "legitimate" publishing was absolutely the only way to go and it was far better to never be published then to muck about in those shit-filled stalls of self-delusion.

So if you think I'm here to sell self-publishing or am taking up some absolutist mantle, I'm sorry to disappoint you. I understand what a racket self-pubbing can be, I'm well aware of it's pitfalls and I've seen more crappy writing in the self-publishing realm than just about anywhere.

I'm just plainly stating that my belief, yes belief in the standard publishing route as the only way to fly has been thoroughly shaken. And whether "virulent" self-pubbers have use similar terminology, I don't really care.

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I agree with all of the above. And I self-publish some of my writing (precisely because it seems to me that the old road is aging...maybe not rapidly, though; thanks, Bob Dylan.)

Am I too be drummed off AW now that I'm not spouting the received wisdom about the Great and Terrible Oz? I'm just speaking my mind here. It doesn't make me a virulent absolutist.

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Yeah, things get a bit set in stone around here. I was told when I first came to AW back in 2007 that landing a good agent and writing a good book meant a virtual guarantee of a traditional publishing contract. I worked with two different agents at one of the most highly regarded agencies in the world, and neither of them could sell my book, and not for lack of trying.

Things often simply aren't the way everybody says they are. AW's culture has some serious blind spots that only become apparent once a writer has followed all the proscriptions to the letter and still comes out on the other side with an experience that doesn't fit with the party line.

Amadan said:

I don't think anyone has said standard publishing is the only way to fly. But for most folks, it's better than jumping off a cliff in a home-made glider.





Aren't you being a little bit dramatic?

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Yes, probably. I don't appreciate being treated like some evil agent of self-publishing just for stating that I can no longer believe in the infallibility of "legitimate" publishing.

It's just an opinion. You're welcome to disagree.

I get annoyed when people treat them as religions.

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Medievalist, I don't think they're actually religions. But the terminology seems to fit. Self publishing is treated as an unforgivable sin, any allowing for the possibility of it is wicked temptation. I feel like a heretic for even saying I can't buy the agents-know-all line any longer.

Debeucci said:

And while some self pubs do make a decent living, it is a tiny percentage of them.

At the end of the day, there really is only one path for a writer who wants to write for a living imo.

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I know getting the percentages of self published authors who are making a living at it are rather difficult (impossible?) to get, but I'm curious what the percentages of writers who are pursuing the trade publishing course of action are also making a decent living. Last I heard discussion on the matter, many trade published writers weren't making a living on that income, either.

And that's not taking into account those authors who are pursing trade publishing first and have yet to even catch the attention of an agent/publishing house. Certainly they're not making a living off it either.

It's really not that cut-and-dried.

bearilou said:

And, it seems, neither can the writers. :/

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Nor the readers! :C

I remember in human sexuality class back in college we learned that it was nearly impossible for gay fiction to be published back in the day and the only options were pretty much indie publishers or self publishing. Our professor talked about how when he was young and just figuring out his sexuality, he would go to libraries and books stores looking for novels with gay people in them and most of the books he found were in the psychology section! Thank goodness it's not like that anymore but editors/publishers/etc still have so much control over what we read, it's mind-boggling! I think it's great that nowadays people can publish whatever they want, even if it's bad!

Libbie said:

Yeah, things get a bit set in stone around here. I was told when I first came to AW back in 2007 that landing a good agent and writing a good book meant a virtual guarantee of a traditional publishing contract. I worked with two different agents at one of the most highly regarded agencies in the world, and neither of them could sell my book, and not for lack of trying.

Things often simply aren't the way everybody says they are. AW's culture has some serious blind spots that only become apparent once a writer has followed all the proscriptions to the letter and still comes out on the other side with an experience that doesn't fit with the party line.

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Well, here's the thing - it might surprise you to know that I'd consider doing the same thing you did if I can't sell my book. If after I've given it a reasonable shot and it doesn't sell, I will likely self-publish it, just so I haven't wasted the effort of writing it, and maybe some people will enjoy it.

But, I won't expect it's going to make me any money, or get me any Hugos, or even a review on a real review site.

In other words, it will go from "commercial venture" to "hobbyist indulgence."

By your own admission, your self-published book hasn't made you any money. I'm sure you like having readers, but for a writer who presumably wants to (1) actually make money, and (2) step up to the Big Kids Table in publishing (reviews, recognition, at least a theoretical chance at awards and best-seller lists), you're hardly making an argument for self-publishing being a viable alternative.

I'm planning on going the traditional route, but I think there's a lot to be said for self-pub if you do it right. I met an author a week ago who shopped around her vampire novel and was told that no one wanted to sell a vampire novel anymore. She self-published it - it's got a fantastic cover and great reviews, so is doing really well.

I think if you have a good book and do your research, you can make good money at it. I'm going to pick her brains in a week, anyways.

The biggest pitfall of self-publishing, in my opinion, is that there's no screening process.

Still planning on going the traditional route. My biggest worry going the self-publishing route would be putting something out there that isn't up to par - and not being aware of it.

Amadan said:

By your own admission, your self-published book hasn't made you any money. I'm sure you like having readers, but for a writer who presumably wants to (1) actually make money, and (2) step up to the Big Kids Table in publishing (reviews, recognition, at least a theoretical chance at awards and best-seller lists), you're hardly making an argument for self-publishing being a viable alternative.

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Dude...did you actually read my post? I wasn't trying to make an argument for self-publishing being a viable option if one's goal is to make a living from one's writing.

Like I said, I was glad I self-published that nichey book to get it into the hands of readers who appreciate it, but I wrote off all expectation of making money from that book (and its sequels, which I do still intend to finish and self-publish, though since they have now become "hobbyist ventures" they take a backseat to my other, potentially profitable writing.) And I also said that I pursue traditional publishing with everything else I write because I expect my writing to make money.

What I actually said about self-publishing is that it's a good option if one's primary goal is NOT to make a living from one's writing. Just because the primary goal isn't to make it pay doesn't mean that self-publishing isn't "a viable option," in your words. Viable totally depends on the writer's goal.

Amadan said:

Well, here's the thing - it might surprise you to know that I'd consider doing the same thing you did if I can't sell my book. If after I've given it a reasonable shot and it doesn't sell, I will likely self-publish it, just so I haven't wasted the effort of writing it, and maybe some people will enjoy it.

But, I won't expect it's going to make me any money, or get me any Hugos, or even a review on a real review site.

In other words, it will go from "commercial venture" to "hobbyist indulgence."

By your own admission, your self-published book hasn't made you any money. I'm sure you like having readers, but for a writer who presumably wants to (1) actually make money, and (2) step up to the Big Kids Table in publishing (reviews, recognition, at least a theoretical chance at awards and best-seller lists), you're hardly making an argument for self-publishing being a viable alternative.

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I'm glad you said this.

I love my job and have no illusions about supporting myself with novels. I know more than a few published (Gosh, what's the accepted terminology? We're not supposed to say "traditionally published" because that's meaningless .... Legitimately? Mainstream? Help me out here.) novelists who continue to work their regular 9-5 jobs to support themselves. So it seems to me the time when an author could be entirely supported by her writing has passed. Oh sure, it works for big name-brand writers. The Jodi Piccoult's of the world, say, or those with runaway bestsellers. But for those of us not writing surefire bestseller/movie of the week stuff/wildly popular YA or middle grade series, no.

So for me, the big "don't you dare" of self-pubbing, the "you'll never turn a profit" threat, is pretty meaningless. Further, the "no way can you market it" thing doesn't daunt me .... my career is in marketing anyway. I spend all day, every day marketing. Err, when I'm not farting around on AW.

That said, I don't have plans to self publish. It's just that I've stopped ruling it out entirely as a possibility.

AndreaGS said:

I think if you have a good book and do your research, you can make good money at it. I'm going to pick her brains in a week, anyways.

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Very, very few self-publishers make "good" money at it. Of course "good" depends on how any given individual defines it, but I'll tell you that I have an excellent cover, have been absolutely crazy-picky about quality and formatting, edited this book with two professional agents, have been promoting it well, and have lots of reader reviews (compared to the majority of other self-published books.) The book has been out for about seven months.

I've made around $300 off it.

In my book, that's not "good money." And my book is being received by readers as far exceeding their expectations for a self-published book. In fact, several readers have commented (in public reviews and privately to me) that they think it's far better than any other book they've read in this historical fiction niche.

I've still only made $300 from it in seven months.

Anybody who goes into self-publishing should do it with eyes wide open, as I did. My book is comparable in quality to traditionally published books in its genre. I am not making a living from it. But I didn't expect to, and I did it only to reach hungry readers who want good Egyptian fiction. So I haven't been disappointed. (In fact, I've been quite happy with my book's reception.) A person who expects to make "good money" from self-publishing is setting herself up for major disappointment. I think it is possible to make a living or even just "good money" from SP, but it takes a backlist and some serious talent for promotion and marketing. Oh, and consistently kickass books. Plural. Not one book.

AndreaGS said:

The biggest pitfall of self-publishing, in my opinion, is that there's no screening process.

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That, right there, is the main drawback for me. A ton of crap is self-published, giving self-publishing a bad name. That my fabulous books would be tarred with that brush is the main thing keeping me from pursuing self-publishing.

Obviously pride is more important to me than money.

I'm not currently working on a novel and so I'm not as heavily invested in this argument as some of you folks seem to be. I don't even hang out on AW much, hardly at all until a few weeks ago. I'm put off by the hostility I see here, but I'm really interested in the topic, so I'm going to throw my 2 cents in.

A year ago, I would have said mainstream/traditional all the way. Last summer, some of my neighbors self-published a non-fiction book. I was shaking my head (in private and behind their backs!). They'd spent thousands of dollars, were in debt to investors, and had a whole team working on it. And you know what? It's done really, really well. The husband was the writer, the wife acted as publisher and publicist. She did a phenomenal job, getting them coverage in tons of well-known magazines, an author interview on NPR, etc. They got a distributor. Now, the book has been picked up by a "traditional" publisher, too. I am sitting here eating my hat.

Mind you, I still think they're setting themselves up for a fall if they try to replicate this with a novel, but I'll be much less surprised if it does well.

So next time I finish a novel, I'll take a look at what's going on in the publishing world. I might try to get an agent to look at it, spend a year waiting around on an over-the-transom submission to Tor or someplace, but I might just hire a copy editor to do a last pass, sign my neighbor on as a publicist, and throw it out there.

I think independent publishing is the wave of the future. No, the "traditional" publishers aren't dead yet, and will probably still have a place, but I no longer believe that that's the only way to go, even for a novel.

One more thing:

Debeucci said:

And while some self pubs do make a decent living, it is a tiny percentage of them.

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A whole lot of traditionally published authors keep their day jobs, too. We all know that, don't we?

AndreaGS said:

The biggest pitfall of self-publishing, in my opinion, is that there's no screening process.

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This. Until self-publishing has some sort of policing method, I believe that it is a flawed model. Anyone can string together a few thousand words and put it online, regardless of how bad it is. And once a reader who takes a gander at a few bad self published novels, and decide that it's just a landfill of rubbish, it affects everyone else.

Reading is very personal.

This isn't I paid 4 bucks and ate a bad burger at Arby's and decide to never eat at arby's again.

This is I paid 4 bucks and spent 2 hours trying to read drivel, and I will never make that mistake again.

But I think people are getting ahead of themselves. Even the majority of authors who have sold their novels to a traditional publisher aren't making a living off of writing. Writing is feast or famine 95% dont' make a living from it (including tradtional publisher authors) and 5% are blessed and talented enough to do. I don't have stats to back me up but I'm sure i'm not that far off...if anything, it's probably more 2% than 5%.

Unfair? Definitely, but them's the facts of life.

Devil Ledbetter said:

That, right there, is the main drawback for me. A ton of crap is self-published, giving self-publishing a bad name. That my fabulous books would be tarred with that brush is the main thing keeping me from pursuing self-publishing.

Obviously pride is more important to me than money.

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This is a tongue-in-cheek version of the one half of my issue--I have no desire to be equated with bad fanfic and derivative garbage, which, until there is some sorting mechanism or bar, makes up a very disproportionate amount of the self-pub pile.

The other issue is this: I have a day job. Then I go home. I have a wife and kids to hang out with. I also hunt, fish, garden, cook, make beer and wine, grow mushrooms, hunt wild mushrooms, read, and travel. AND, I dance, enjoy movies, take care of a good bit of the housework, etc...... I don't have ANY desire to become a businessman and head of marketing for myself and everything else. Granted, you should be more proactive even with a big publisher about your own work than just sitting on your ass, but i wouldn't want to be responsible for all of it. Too many other things I'd rather be doing. And I want to make a go of writing, but not badly enough to do that. Some other folks do, or they enjoy it, or they're better at it than I am--more power to them. For me, I'd quit first and do all the other things I enjoy instead.

Debeucci said:

But I think people are getting ahead of themselves. Even the majority of authors who have sold their novels to a traditional publisher aren't making a living off of writing. Writing is feast or famine 95% dont' make a living from it (including tradtional publisher authors) and 5% are blessed and talented enough to do. I don't have stats to back me up but I'm sure i'm not that far off...if anything, it's probably more 2% than 5%.

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It's not just the money, though, for most writers. I am very unlikely to make enough money to quit my day job. But I want my book on shelves. I want fans on Goodreads. I want reviews in reputable magazines. I want to be able to dream of being nominated for a Hugo. I want people to write fan fiction of my work.

Some people may want to make a living at writing; I just want a hobby with a bit of a return in money and ego. Even on those terms, the return from self-publishing is likely to be very, very small.

Devil Ledbetter said:

Oh, but didn't you get the memo? If the agents don't think it's good enough, clearly it's not good enough. Period. End of discussion.

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That depends.

Did said agents request a partial or a full?

In other words, was the problem with the query?

Libbie said:

Yeah, things get a bit set in stone around here. I was told when I first came to AW back in 2007 that landing a good agent and writing a good book meant a virtual guarantee of a traditional publishing contract.

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If anyone told you that, they were full of it.

There are no guarantees in publishing.

Libbie said:

I worked with two different agents at one of the most highly regarded agencies in the world, and neither of them could sell my book, and not for lack of trying.

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Yet you self-published, and it still isn't selling very well, you say. Which suggests that perhaps it's just not a book that many people will want to read.

Some books are like that. There are an awful lot of authors who set book 1 aside, even though they knew it was a good and publishable book, and sold book 2.

And then they sold book 1. And readers, knowing the author's name, and having liked book 2, bought book 1.

Libbie said:

Things often simply aren't the way everybody says they are. AW's culture has some serious blind spots that only become apparent once a writer has followed all the proscriptions to the letter and still comes out on the other side with an experience that doesn't fit with the party line.

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I think you're being a little unrealistic.

Your book not doing well, and your unrealistic perceptions, have nothing to do with "AW's culture."

You have all along noted that you write lit fic.

That's already narrowing your options in the extreme in terms of readers and publishers.

aikigypsy said:

Mind you, I still think they're setting themselves up for a fall if they try to replicate this with a novel, but I'll be much less surprised if it does well.

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Self-publishing is particularly suited to non-fiction. It's not even all that unusual to do well with a non-fiction book.

But fiction is much harder, in part because it isn't enough to be a competent prosodist; you have to have story. It's an entirely different kind of editing, for non-fic, and the cover art is far more important. The reasons people are tempted to look at, and buy, a novel are very different from the reasons we look at and buy non-fiction.

Fiction is much more difficult in terms of self-publishing.