Question For Those Who Write 'Epic' Battle Scenes

gothicangel · Sep 20, 2011

So, I've just started planning my new WIP, my MC is a speculatore for the Roman Legions [a scout/spy, but were known to perform assasinations and liquidations etc.]

I'm planning to have a battle in my WIP. I'm quite good at my Roman military tactics, but I'm finding the writing is painful. In all honesty, battles don't get me excited - and that's not what the book is about, it's the politics and espionage that goes on behind the battle lines.

So does anyone have any good advice, maybe good examples of novels with battles that might get me excited about these chapters [two at the most]?

Mr Flibble · Sep 20, 2011

The best advuce I've ever seen is this

Keep i personal to your MC. Let him be awed by the size of the opposing army etc

When writing actual fighting the *cough* rule of three is a helpful guideline

Only one in three sentences (guideline! Guideline!) should be about an actual fighting move

Ted hit Sandy, then Sandy riposted and then Ted blocked...

*yawn*

That would look cool in a film.

It's not a film. Don't write it as an action scene in the movies. Use a book's great strength - you see inside your MC's head. Action, consequences, reaction, emotion.

So, two guys are fighting

Tom hits Sandy in the nose. < action
Sandy's nose exploded in a welter of blood < consequences of action - breaks up action sentences
Sandy staggered back and blinked stupidly < reaction
My face, my face, not the face! < lol emotional reaction. Coudl be fear/aggression/want of revenge etc

Mix up the elements. Add in consequences and emotion, how it feels, how it affects the MC, and you'll have a much more vivid action scene than if you describe every ninja action in the *cough* book.

Memnon624 · Sep 20, 2011

Find an angle in the fighting that DOES excite you. The psychology? The poetry of battle? The irony? The blood and thunder? Some aspect of it must intrigue you. I'd also suggest you read Steven Pressfield's Gates of Fire. It's about Thermopylae, and it's a great primer on how to write battles, and what you should consider in order to pull your reader in emotionally.

Good luck!

Best,

Scott

Eddyz Aquila · Sep 20, 2011

I'll be honest - I act my battle scenes. Yes, if anyone peeks into my room, they'll see me holding a stick as a sword replacement and imagining those things before I put them to paper/screen.

They have to be personal and they have to engage the MC in such a way that the reader will be thrilled about the victory or defeat he has witnessed.

DeleyanLee · Sep 20, 2011

Before I'm going to write a big battle set of scenes, I rewatch two battle scenes from DVDs I own solely for those scenes.

The Battle of Stirling in Braveheart and the Battle of Helms Deep in The Two Towers.

The reason I do that is because I can get the pacing of between the brief overwhelming odds against the heroes to the individual moments with named pro/antagonists. Completely ignoring how authentic those bits are, the pacing and the sense of battle they show pretty much is exactly what I want to give to my readers.

Take a look at the book you're writing and see if there's any big story questions that are affected by this battle happening. If there is, then you'll have to knuckle down and write it--however that story question should give you the focus you need to make it exciting to you as well as important to the reader. If there isn't, then readers are most likely aren't going to want to see it but to get on with the story questions they really want answers to.

Hope that helps.

gothicangel · Sep 21, 2011

DeleyanLee said:
Take a look at the book you're writing and see if there's any big story questions that are affected by this battle happening. If there is, then you'll have to knuckle down and write it--however that story question should give you the focus you need to make it exciting to you as well as important to the reader. If there isn't, then readers are most likely aren't going to want to see it but to get on with the story questions they really want answers to.

Unfortunately, I can't avoid writing the battle, as the whole plot is hinged on it. That's an interesting thought though, I do have Braveheart on DVD [my lecturers would have a fit!

], I think I'll have a watch later today.

Thanks guys, some great info here. I think you are correct, I'm not connecting with my MC. I think I've been reading too much of these Simon Scarrow style books, which are a case of 'and then they did this.' Too much military tactic, not enough characterization.

areteus · Sep 21, 2011

I am going with the keep it personal angle. You don't need to see an overarching view of what every soldier or unit is doing, you only need to see what your MC is seeing. So, if your MC is with the general on a nearby hilltop then he may get more information on how the battle is going than if he is in the melee himself - when all he will see are his immediate surroundings.

Think about how the armies communicate as well. Not sure how the Romans did it exactly myself (not done the research) but I bet they used horns and flag signals (I saw one thing which suggested they used whistles as well but no idea how accurate that is). Your MC should know the meaning of the signals (on his side at least) and may therefore be able to extrapolate what is happening. So, for example:

The baying horn cut through the noise of battle, three long notes. The twelth are about to move in, he thought. That means Scipio is about to close the trap. Probably not a good idea to be here when it happens. He deftly thrust his gladius into the guts of the barbarian in front of him and moved quickly away before anyone else could react, leaping over the bodies of the fallen to where he hoped he could find a safe zone.

Though you would probably write that better than I have here.

Memnon624 · Sep 21, 2011

Here's a link to an example from my second book, Memnon, where I had to reverse engineer a battle based on anecdotal evidence told second-hand. Not being a soldier myself, one of the inspirations I used for the tense moments before the fight began was Stephen Crane's The Red Badge of Courage; once the swords fly, my inspiration becomes Robert E. Howard.

Hope it helps!

Best,

Scott

gothicangel · Sep 22, 2011

Big thanks for the advice.

I just finished writing the battle this afternoon. Once I got my MC into a mire the writing became so much easier.

Captain Scarf · Sep 22, 2011

I know it's thousands of years away from your WIP but you should read the battle scenes from Bernard Cornwell's Sharpe or Starbuck books. I love his battle scenes.

gothicangel · Sep 22, 2011

Captain Scarf said:
I know it's thousands of years away from your WIP but you should read the battle scenes from Bernard Cornwell's Sharpe or Starbuck books. I love his battle scenes.

Will do, there will be a lot of work in the next draft.

Tom from UK · Sep 23, 2011

I just wrote a huge battle scene. It covered all the stuff that went on in an actual battle. Attacks, retreats, counter attacks, flanking movements. I spent ages getting my head round it and then writing it all up. And then my beta reader said it was a history lesson and it was boring and my MC was only involved in part of it.

So I cut practically all of it.

Battle scenes - ugh! Shakespeare had it right:

"I say, soldier, how goes the battle!"

"Well it was a close run thing but we won."

(Check out Macbeth for a startlingly good example of that.)

PS Cornwell is brilliant. But his stories are (mostly) specifically military history stories. So the battles are key to the whole thing (and, even so, account for only a fraction of the word count). Yours doesn't sound as if it is.

gothicangel · Sep 23, 2011

Tom from UK said:
I just wrote a huge battle scene. It covered all the stuff that went on in an actual battle. Attacks, retreats, counter attacks, flanking movements. I spent ages getting my head round it and then writing it all up. And then my beta reader said it was a history lesson and it was boring and my MC was only involved in part of it.

Hehe. This is so my first two chapters! Definitely over long, and will need some serious editing. I don't get Simon Scarrow style books, which come over to me as boring.

I will certainly check out Bernard Cornwall. Didn't he write a series about the Vikings in my native Northumbria? I could handle that.

Dave Hardy · Sep 23, 2011

Robert E. Howard is my go to for fictional models, though Scott Oden is someone to listen to as well. But I am fascinated by first-hand accounts from history.

For a gritty, first-hand account of combat in the late Roman Empire, check out Ammianus Marcellinus's on the siege of Amida, in book XIX of AM's histories.

Caesar had a remarkable ability to convey the overview of his battles.

Another first-hand view, though much later, is from Anna Comnena's bio of her father Alexius Comnenus. She was able to get quite a bit of 1st hand info about battles he participated in c1080-1110.

gothicangel · Sep 23, 2011

Dave Hardy said:
Robert E. Howard is my go to for fictional models, though Scott Oden is someone to listen to as well. But I am fascinated by first-hand accounts from history.

For a gritty, first-hand account of combat in the late Roman Empire, check out Ammianus Marcellinus's on the siege of Amida, in book XIX of AM's histories.

Caesar had a remarkable ability to convey the overview of his battles.

Another first-hand view, though much later, is from Anna Comnena's bio of her father Alexius Comnenus. She was able to get quite a bit of 1st hand info about battles he participated in c1080-1110.

Thanks.

Willowmound · Sep 24, 2011

gothicangel said:
I will certainly check out Bernard Cornwall. Didn't he write a series about the Vikings in my native Northumbria? I could handle that.

Try his Warlord trilogy instead. It's better and apparently Cornwell's own favourite. (Also, the Viking series has mistakes that annoy me even if the battle scenes are great.)

donroc · Sep 24, 2011

Use "fog of war" from MC's POV plus his situational awareness or lack thereof.

Feral_Sophisticate · Oct 10, 2011

I'm a late-comer in this thread, but you might also want to visit some of the battles portrayed in books by Jack Whyte - he's a Scotsman living in British Columbia, and his battle scenes are epic, visceral and personal.

I would recommend that you visit any of his "A Dream of Eagles" series or "The Guardians" trilogy (of which, so far, only the first book "The Forest Laird" has been released).

gothicangel · Oct 10, 2011

Feral_Sophisticate said:
I'm a late-comer in this thread, but you might also want to visit some of the battles portrayed in books by Jack Whyte - he's a Scotsman living in British Columbia, and his battle scenes are epic, visceral and personal.

I would recommend that you visit any of his "A Dream of Eagles" series or "The Guardians" trilogy (of which, so far, only the first book "The Forest Laird" has been released).

Much appreciated.

Question For Those Who Write 'Epic' Battle Scenes

gothicangel

Toughen up.

Mr Flibble

They've been very bad, Mr Flibble

Memnon624

A Boy and his Orc . . .

Eddyz Aquila

Noob Writers United

DeleyanLee

Writing Anarchist

gothicangel

Toughen up.

areteus

Memnon624

A Boy and his Orc . . .

gothicangel

Toughen up.

Captain Scarf

Smart-casual Ninja

gothicangel

Toughen up.

Tom from UK

gothicangel

Toughen up.

Dave Hardy

Don't let your deal go down,

gothicangel

Toughen up.

Willowmound

Lightly salted

donroc

Historicals and Horror rule

Feral_Sophisticate

Warming maid's buttocks since 1989.

gothicangel

Toughen up.