Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 1

Status
Not open for further replies.

sunandshadow

Impractical Fantasy Animal
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 17, 2005
Messages
4,827
Reaction score
336
Location
Pittsburgh, PA, USA
Website
home.comcast.net
FreeSlave - there are some excellent romance novels about the Amish culture/religion which I remember reading when I was younger - if it worked with the Amish it should work with Muslims too. :)
 

James D. Macdonald

Your Genial Uncle
Absolute Sage
VPX
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 11, 2005
Messages
25,582
Reaction score
3,785
Location
New Hampshire
Website
madhousemanor.wordpress.com
FreeSlave786 said:
Is it different if you're writing about a society with 'strange' rules and perceptions that is Here and Now? Not all my characters react as people in other societies do under the same circumstances. Do I need to explain the 'why?' behind everything they do? Actually, that's something my beta-readers should be able to help with…

There's no need to explain the 'why' of anything unless you're writing a textbook. Just show the actions and the reactions of your characters.

That's the secret of building alien/fantasy worlds too: Don't explain: Show.

================

I don't want to get into the whole 'and then' thing again. This is one of my idiosyncrasies. Consider it religious on my part if it comforts you to do so. For me, and to me, the word cluster 'and then' is always and everywhere clumsy, illogical, and wrong. It is wrong for the same reason and in the same way that the phrase "over and out" is wrong in radio conversations. It can never be correct. Bring a stack of grammar books written by the highest authorities: I'll take a red pen and correct them. Let a copyeditor add "and" to "then" or "then" to "and" in my manuscript and my STET stamp will come out.

End of discussion.
 

reph

Fig of authority
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 11, 2005
Messages
5,160
Reaction score
971
Location
On a fig tree, presumably
James D. Macdonald said:
I don't want to get into the whole 'and then' thing again....For me, and to me, the word cluster 'and then' is always and everywhere clumsy, illogical, and wrong. It is wrong for the same reason and in the same way that the phrase "over and out" is wrong in radio conversations....
I don't want to get into it in the sense of arguing about it, either. As I said a couple of posts ago, nobody ever wins. I just want people to be aware that preferences differ.

"Over and out" is self-contradictory. "And then" is redundant.

I hope we can all agree that "He washed and dried the dishes" is correct.
 

James D. Macdonald

Your Genial Uncle
Absolute Sage
VPX
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 11, 2005
Messages
25,582
Reaction score
3,785
Location
New Hampshire
Website
madhousemanor.wordpress.com
reph said:
"Over and out" is self-contradictory. "And then" is redundant.

"And then" is self-contradictory. "And" in that word-group means "simultaneously." "Then" in that word-group means "sequentially."

It is permissible to use "and then" in dialog, to reveal character.
 

SeanDSchaffer

Don't Explain: Show

James D. Macdonald said:
There's no need to explain the 'why' of anything unless you're writing a textbook. Just show the actions and the reactions of your characters.

That's the secret of building alien/fantasy worlds too: Don't explain: Show.


Hello, I have a question concerning the 'Don't Explain: Show,' issue. It's a simple -- maybe stupid -- question really. But I'm interested in knowing: why is it important to show instead of explain? Does it have something to do with the readers and how they view a story?

I'm honestly lost on this, I've never heard this issue explained quite this way before. Could I maybe get some of you to give me some good examples that I could learn from, of 'Don't Explain: Show?'

Thanks in advance, everyone.

:Thumbs:
 

reph

Fig of authority
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 11, 2005
Messages
5,160
Reaction score
971
Location
On a fig tree, presumably
James D. Macdonald said:
"And then" is self-contradictory. "And" in that word-group means "simultaneously."
Oh, no wonder you don't like it. I never understand "and" to connote simultaneity unless there's a contextual clue to simultaneity nearby.

"He washed and dried the dishes." At the same time? No, presumably washing preceded drying.

"The candle sputtered and went out." Not at the same time.

"Mary received her B.A. from Ohio State and her M.A. from Columbia." Again, a sequence.

"Today I went to the bank and the post office." Nonsimultaneously; sequence is unspecified.

"John won $1,000 at the blackjack table and lost it." Sequence is implied.

"The alien slithered toward us, waving its tentacles and making dreadful sounds." Simultaneously.
 

reph

Fig of authority
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 11, 2005
Messages
5,160
Reaction score
971
Location
On a fig tree, presumably
SeanDSchaffer said:
Could I maybe get some of you to give me some good examples that I could learn from, of 'Don't Explain: Show?'
The classic way of putting it is "Show, don't tell."

Telling: "Pete was old, feeble, and alone in the world."

Showing: "Pete set the grocery bag on the counter and hobbled to his chair. That bad knee was giving him trouble. He'd rest a spell before he unpacked the week's supplies."

The "showing" version is more vivid. You don't feel that the writer's talking to you; you feel you're watching Pete. The writer drops out as invisible. At least, that's what I was aiming for.
 

SeanDSchaffer

Right on, reph! Thanks.

reph said:
The classic way of putting it is "Show, don't tell."

Telling: "Pete was old, feeble, and alone in the world."

Showing: "Pete set the grocery bag on the counter and hobbled to his chair. That bad knee was giving him trouble. He'd rest a spell before he unpacked the week's supplies."

The "showing" version is more vivid. You don't feel that the writer's talking to you; you feel you're watching Pete. The writer drops out as invisible. At least, that's what I was aiming for.


Well, I'll be a son-of-a-gun. I think I get it now. So it's not all about dialogue and all that. I was originally afraid it would all be about dialogue, but if I understand correctly, it's more about not lecturing to the reader than anything else. Am I correct on that?

So something like, let's say a long introduction, would be a waste of writing unless put into, say, an outline or something to that effect? I've always written descriptive intros, thinking it would be 'cool' to read. I guess this is something to definitely work out within my own writing.

Show, don't tell. I always heard that. Now that I have an idea what that means, I'll be able to have fun re-writing a lot of my older manuscripts.

Thanks, reph! I appreciate it.

:Thumbs:
 

paritoshuttam

Registered
Joined
Feb 16, 2005
Messages
19
Reaction score
0
Location
Pune, India
Website
www.paritoshuttam.com
FreeSlave786 said:
I hope I got my question across properly, anything that sounds offensive or paranoid is unintentional. I'm just plain curious about what I might need to make my story one that can be familiar and welcoming to Indian-Muslim readers, and at the same time interestingly foreign (not alien) to non-Indian/non-Muslim readers.

Hi,

I am not a Muslim, but I am from India, so I do understand a few things (like, I know 786 is a sacred number for you). What I can observe is that girls from affluent Muslim families do not wear burqa (veils). The ones who wear are from the not-so-well off sections of society.

The general perception among us, I admit, is that Muslim women wear burqa because they have no choice. So if your protagonist wears one voluntarily, my feeling is that she will not be considered a representative, but more of an exception.

Your book might ring true with Indian Muslim women settled in the US or UK. In any case, the Indian Muslim readership in India will be minuscule.

There are exceptions of course. I know that the burqa is becoming popular in Kerala. There was a poet Kamala Das who converted from Hinduism to Islam and gladly wears the burqa now. On the other hand, there are Muslim girls like Sania Mirza, who became a tennis star after losing to Serena Williams in the Australian Open, and everybody is fine with her wearing miniskirts on the court.

So I would say your protagonist would make an interesting character, but how true or representative she is perceived to be, is another thing.

thanks,
Paritosh.
 

Galoot

I am a pretty pretty flower
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 24, 2005
Messages
570
Reaction score
195
Location
Vancouver Island, BC
Website
thegaloot.blogspot.com
SeanDSchaffer said:
Could I maybe get some of you to give me some good examples that I could learn from, of 'Don't Explain: Show?'
My favorite book of examples is LOTR, because everyone seems to have read it.

Tolkien could have saved a lot of ink by saying "Frodo found the ring a heavy load to bear," but instead he described how it pulled him down, how the immensity of it affected him, and you could almost feel the weight of it yourself when reading those passages.

Part of showing, rather than telling, is putting yourself in the POV character's shoes as you write rather than standing back and describing it from afar.
 

reph

Fig of authority
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 11, 2005
Messages
5,160
Reaction score
971
Location
On a fig tree, presumably
SeanDSchaffer said:
...if I understand correctly, it's more about not lecturing to the reader than anything else. Am I correct on that?
I think you are, but wait for some of the pros to give independent answers and examples. I have little experience with writing of this kind.

So something like, let's say a long introduction, would be a waste of writing unless put into, say, an outline or something to that effect?
You might put the introduction in outline form for your own use, like notes to work from. A novel that started with an outline where Chapter 1 should be would put me off.

Some writers get all excited about worldbuilding and want to start with six pages about how the Zylarks who had wisely ruled Nudsimia 500 years ago had decided to seek out a planet whose atmosphere contained a lower percentage of unbiffligated hiptosolutes because the increasing mutation rate was getting on everybody's nerves, but the scout ship had run out of quark shields, so the explorers settled in this other place, and their descendants created a new political system, which you need to know about so you'll understand the story, and ...

Readers may exist who enjoy such an opening, but more readers exist who don't.
 

Zane Curtis

Dried Frog Pill Dispenser
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
136
Reaction score
27
Location
Sydney Australia
SeanDSchaffer said:
Well, I'll be a son-of-a-gun. I think I get it now. So it's not all about dialogue and all that. I was originally afraid it would all be about dialogue, but if I understand correctly, it's more about not lecturing to the reader than anything else. Am I correct on that?

That's part of it. When you start in on a lecture, the language gets very abstract, and that's why a lecture is a problem. Abstract language doesn't provoke vivid images in the reader's mind. And in fiction, creating clear and vivid images of the events in the reader's mind is what you want to do most.

If you write, "The knife was sharp." then that's not really much of an image. It's more of a "so what?" You can invoke the idea of sharpness much more vividly if you write something like, "Dave grasped carelessly for the knife and caught it by the blade. It cut through the flesh of his fingers, right down to the bone."

Ouch. Now that's a sharp knife.
 
Last edited:

jlawrenceperry

Registered
Joined
Apr 19, 2005
Messages
38
Reaction score
5
Location
New Albany, IN
Website
www.geocities.com
james d. macdonald said:
I don't want to get into the whole 'and then' thing again....
Yes please let's not. I was not trying to revive a dead horse, only point at its gravestone and laugh.

You know, like, "hey remember the time we got in a big argument about the difference between Dominoes and Pizza Hut, and which one was better? Wasn't that hilarious? ha ha ha ha ha ha...."

Showing vs. Telling is basically letting the character do something to illustrate that which you'd like to get across. Whether it be dialogue or not. Saying "he was old, feeble, and alone in the world" is taking the role of narrator. Writing out the actions puts a reader in the story, and is a bit more like stage direction.

Displaying what the character is doing and letting the reader see it in their mind's eye, rather than becoming the narrator from Bullwinkle.
 
Last edited:

James D. Macdonald

Your Genial Uncle
Absolute Sage
VPX
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 11, 2005
Messages
25,582
Reaction score
3,785
Location
New Hampshire
Website
madhousemanor.wordpress.com
SeanDSchaffer said:
I'm honestly lost on this, I've never heard this issue explained quite this way before. Could I maybe get some of you to give me some good examples that I could learn from, of 'Don't Explain: Show?'


"I got in my car and headed for Long Island" doesnt include any explanation for how an internal combustion engine works.
 

James D. Macdonald

Your Genial Uncle
Absolute Sage
VPX
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 11, 2005
Messages
25,582
Reaction score
3,785
Location
New Hampshire
Website
madhousemanor.wordpress.com
Further on showing v. telling:

As the inimitable HapiSofi put it elsewhere at AW:

Gala contributed:

Tell: Bambi was so angry at Bob for the way he talked to her.
Show: Bambi slapped Bob's face.


"Honey, sweetie," I said, "you know I wouldn't lie to you."

"The hell you say," I heard her mutter, just before her baseball bat connected with my head.
Tell: Bertha felt like throwing a tantrum.
Show: Bertha stomped her feet, and threw the empty glass at the fireplace.


"What kind of idiot do you take me for?" screeched Bertha, throwing her empty glass at the fireplace and reaching for another.
Tell: She thought it was about time he showed up.
Show: She opened the door, and said, "It's about time you showed up.



"By the time the cab pulled up in front of her house, she had already thrown all my clothes out onto the lawn, followed by my golf clubs. Then she kicked open the front door, and I saw what she had in her hands.

"Stella, please," I said. "Not the computer."​
 
Last edited:

maestrowork

Fear the Death Ray
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 11, 2005
Messages
43,746
Reaction score
8,652
Location
Los Angeles
Website
www.amazon.com
Show vs. tell really just boils down to details. The more details you have, the more vivid it is and the more you put the readers in your world. Sometimes it's okay to say "she feels tired." But the best fiction would show us how tired she is (slumping, dragging her feet, etc.) without EVER saying the word "tired." Sometimes it's about pacing. "She feels tired" (telling, summary) is fine if you want the narrative to zip along. Or you can write a whole page of how tired she is to slow down the pace and let the readers really see, hear, smell, taste and feel her....
 

triceretops

Banned
Flounced
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
14,060
Reaction score
2,755
Location
In a van down by the river
Website
guerrillawarfareforwriters.blogspot.com
I think anything that reminds the reader that an author is trying to help you "feel" something by stating obvious emotions, is a fast fix. I call it author intrusion. Except in the case of dialogue, I do sometimes (very sparingly) use a bit of intrusion.

He nervously said, "How did you find that out?"
Better than saying, "How did you find that out?" He was a nervous wreck.

Tri
 

Nangleator

Rep Point Whore
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 4, 2005
Messages
408
Reaction score
59
Location
Dracut, Massachusetts
I don't really understand why "over and out" is impossible.

I was told in flight training that older technology required radio operators to say "over" at the end of their transmissions and "out" at the end of their conversations. Newer radio equipment makes this unnecessary.

Or was it ever necessary? Is "over and out" an invention of screenwriters like "A-OK" was an invention of the press?

Could you see a use for something like that phrase during conversations between spacecraft with a 10 or 20-second time delay? It lets the other person know when they should start replying, or that you intend not to be listening any more.
 

cwfgal

On the rocks
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
1,173
Reaction score
156
Location
In a state of psychosis
Website
www.bethamos.com
SeanDSchaffer said:
Well, I'll be a son-of-a-gun. I think I get it now. So it's not all about dialogue and all that. I was originally afraid it would all be about dialogue, but if I understand correctly, it's more about not lecturing to the reader than anything else. Am I correct on that?

For me the easiest way to think of showing rather than telling is to imagine myself awakening in the midst of whatever scene I am writing. How would I figure out what is going on? If the scene is a telling one, there will be someone at my side filling me in on all I need to know. If it is a showing one, I will observe and listen and feel and smell and taste my surroundings and interpret what I see, hear, etc. to figure out what is going on. That includes reading body language, listening to dialogue, feeling the "mood" of the room, running my hand over the incredibly soft material on the chair, etc. Showing is painting a picture and letting the reader interpret it (though you can, and should, add in senses other than the visual) and experience it, whereas telling is having a tour guide along for the ride.

Beth
 

James D. Macdonald

Your Genial Uncle
Absolute Sage
VPX
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 11, 2005
Messages
25,582
Reaction score
3,785
Location
New Hampshire
Website
madhousemanor.wordpress.com
Nangleator said:
I don't really understand why "over and out" is impossible.

"Over" means "I'm done talking and expect a reply." "Out" means "I'm done talking and don't expect a reply."

"Over and out" means nothing whatever.

The prowords "over" and "out" are necessary when you're transmitting and receiving on the same frequency (half duplex). They're good practice at all times.
 

Nangleator

Rep Point Whore
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 4, 2005
Messages
408
Reaction score
59
Location
Dracut, Massachusetts
Originally posted by James D. Macdonald:
"Over" means "I'm done talking and expect a reply." "Out" means "I'm done talking and don't expect a reply."

"Over and out" means nothing whatever.

Ah. Thank you.

The prowords "over" and "out" are necessary when you're transmitting and receiving on the same frequency (half duplex). They're good practice at all times.

It isn't in practice in general aviation. It's usually easy to hear whether another has his mike open, and communication is so standardized that it makes use of "over" and "out" redundant.

In fact, care is taken to minimize the length of each broadcast, which is probably why no one says that anymore. Anyone who has piloted near a congested airport knows that the real congestion isn't in airspace. The real problem is trying to get a word in to the controller, such as "please let me come in and land," or "hey, there's a big airplane coming at me."
 

reph

Fig of authority
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 11, 2005
Messages
5,160
Reaction score
971
Location
On a fig tree, presumably
Archived discussion of "over and out":

http://www.phrases.org.uk/bulletin_board/29/messages/151.html

My husband (ex-Navy) says you say "out" just before you turn off your microphone.

As for long narrative introductions to novels, I don't even like it when a movie scene opens with a caption: "Paris, 1878." I'd rather infer the setting from the vehicles I see, the clothing styles, the shop signs in French.
 
Last edited:

Mr Underhill

Writer,Burglar,Adventurer
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 21, 2005
Messages
344
Reaction score
78
Location
Always in the last place you look.
James D. Macdonald said:
That's the secret of building alien/fantasy worlds too: Don't explain: Show.
There's one important caveat to this I feel compelled to add to this, though it may have been addressed already in this thread, but I am still catching up on the first hundred-odd pages.

You, the writer, must have everything explained to the reader's satisfaction. Just don't put the explanation in the story.

What does that mean? I mean you have all the details worked out somewhere - on paper, in your head, whatever - and the actions you are showing all fit within that model of reality. All writers must do this, but it is particularly important for SF&F because you are creating the world from scratch.

"I got in my car and headed for Long Island" is a good example of this, but think about all the things both you and the reader know about this. Now pretend your reader is living 150 years ago. Presumably you've already established that this "car" is essentially a horseless carriage that runs on distillates of petroleum, and it is not uncommon for people to travel at 70 miles per hour. So the reader of 1855 says a-ha! Since it is 35 miles from City Hall in Manhattan to the city of Babylon, Long Island, the trip will only take half an hour!

Well, no. At this point you might feel compelled to explain that it will take some time to get out of the city, or at least onto the highway, due to lights and traffic and so forth, and in fact it will take somewhat longer than an hour under the best circumstances.

But instead of explaining, you should do what would work for a modern reader: show the protagonist waiting in his car at a light that takes a good five minutes before he can turn onto Houston Street; show his frustration with the accident stopping traffic on FDR drive. And there's no need to justify the time it takes with a detailed route and velocity-time profile. You have it worked out, so it is simply what happens.

This is a real-world example, but it's the same for a future, alien or fantasy world. In this example you are working out the details consistent with a particular model of reality – the model you already have in your head of how early 21st century automobiles, cities and roads work. But that model didn't get there because somebody sat down and explained it all to you over an intense week-long seminar, it's there from experience. So when you're writing SF&F, you first need to construct a realistic model of how your imagined world works in your own head. Then your job is presenting readers with enough experiences to reconstruct that same model themselves. Explain it and they'll forget and misunderstand. Show them, and keep showing them things that work according to the same equations and mental maps, and eventually they'll get it. It's more fun that way, too.

I suspect the first step is the reason many people feel compelled to start stories with the several-page explanation of the "how the Zylarks who had wisely ruled Nudsimia 500 years ago" variety. They instinctively know that they need to get this all worked out, so they write it down. That's good. I suppose what I'm trying to say here boils down to this: don't ever skip this step. But, this is not the beginning of the ms. Take it and post it on the corkboard over your desk where you can refer back and refine it as needed. Now you can start writing about the things that happen in your story.

What I've said is focused on SF&F, but I suspect it is the same for all fiction writers. You can take shortcuts since contemporary readers already have their model of how the modern world works established. But you will at least have to establish characters and how they think and behave. And perhaps you will have to create a fictitious neighborhood in Des Moines, or get people's heads around the corporate culture at ABWidgetCo. And you might just want to adjust your readers' model of how the real world works while you're at it. That's what it's all about in the end, isn't it?
 
Last edited:

black winged fighter

AW Addict
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 19, 2005
Messages
568
Reaction score
155
Location
Austin, TX
For fantasy/sci-fi world building, I find that minor characters offer excellent opportunities for injecting world structure. They have minor, everyday experiences and talk about them, a sidelines-commentary on the world. Also, pubs (or space bars, in SF) provide an easy fix to insert some explanation dialogue.
And, as Mr. Underhill says, everday activities are the key to crafting a believable world.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.