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[Agency] BookEnds, LLC / Beyond the Page Publishing

flygal716

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Twizzle, I read the news, too, in Publishers Lunch. I'm still trying to wrap my head around the various kinds of e-publishing there are, and what the advantages are to going this route with BookEnds as opposed to the traditional route. I mean, if they offer to represent, why not have them go the traditional route first?
 

Twizzle

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Twizzle, I read the news, too, in Publishers Lunch. I'm still trying to wrap my head around the various kinds of e-publishing there are, and what the advantages are to going this route with BookEnds as opposed to the traditional route. I mean, if they offer to represent, why not have them go the traditional route first?

Well, BookEnds is the literary agency.

This Beyond the Page Publishing is, well, a publisher.

What's best for you and your career, that's what your literary agent is supposed to advise you on. What's best for you.

Is it a conflict if your agent is also a publisher...

Great blog post here on Writer Beware.

I think David G. raises some interesting points here.

And, of course, Barry Eisler on Joe Konrath's blog here.

There's more out there, but, you know.

Opinions differ. So. It's something you definitely want to think about, and ultimately decide for yourself.
 
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flygal716

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The Writer Beware blog post is excellent. Excerpt: "Becoming publishers for clients' not-yet-published manuscripts seems like a fundamental violation of the author-agent relationship, which is founded on the premise that the agent's job is to sell the client's work for the best possible advance to the best possible publisher." Definitely something to think about.

Thanks for all the links.
 

amergina

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You know, I'm absolutely ok with agents offering self-publishing services (that is, cover art, cover design, editing, copy editing, proofing, conversion) to their clients who want them, for a percentage of the profit.

Beyond the Page, though, is open for query by non-clients. That makes my eyebrows go up. I'm not sure how I feel about that.

:chair
 

kaitie

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I was pretty okay with this until I got to that last paragraph about the publishing company. Very unsure about that element of it. Particularly, as amergina pointed out, that it's open to non-clients.
 

veinglory

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I think it is a blatant conflict of interest for any agent to be any kind of publisher no matter what they call it and how many of them choose to do it.
 
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Jersey Chick

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I'm in total agreement with veinglory. My husband and I were talking about it this morning (and the only thing he knows about publishing is that I write romance novels. :D) and the first thing he wanted to know was how this didn't create some conflict of interest.
 

jennontheisland

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FFS. If you're going to publish books, call yourself a fargin' publisher already. Jeez.
No shit. Because really, the "assisted self publishing" thing just screams "vanity press".

And I still think it's a conflict of interest.
 

victoriastrauss

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Good or bad, these agency/publisher ventures, or agency/publisher-like ventures, are here to stay. There are plenty of people who say that agencies should never be publishers, and plenty more who say that anyone who worries about agencies being publishers is recycling old, tired prejudices--but no one (no one in the business, at least) seems to be looking at things from a practical standpoint--that is, from the standpoint of "Agencies are going to do this no matter what we think, how can we make sure they do it reasonably ethically?"

Backlist only, with a 50/50 profit split and a non-exclusive, limited term grant of digital rights only. A wall between the agency and the publisher (no agency client could use the publisher, no publisher client could be repped by the agency). A clients-only policy (which would mean only backlist or new works by existing clients). If non-clients are accepted by the publisher, a strict no-referral, one-shot-and-you're-out policy (no agency queries would be directed the publisher's way, and you could query either the agency or the publisher--not both). All of these policies, and others, could be reasonably adopted, and would help to provide an ethical framework.

I worry that these established, reputable, successful agencies are relying too much on their own integrity. "Of course we'll operate ethically; we always have done." But it's hard to police yourself when striking out into uncharted waters, and easy to slip across ethical lines by degrees. Adopting some guidelines at the outset might prevent that.

So far, I haven't seen anyone taking that extra step. I hope that'll change.

- Victoria
 

veinglory

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The thing is they seem to see 'operate ethically' in response to mainstream presses. Are they even seriously considering that these clients might do better with a specialist epublisher? I, personally, get the feeling they don't think 'epublishing' is even a distinct skill set. Like there is no real difference between what Samhain does and what the estate of Catherine Cookson are doing....

Time will tell, I guess.
 
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Ari Meermans

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Victoria, I believe you when you say these ventures are here to stay. I'm sure they are; that doesn't mean I trust them or would consider using them. I'm a born cynic and skeptic and the more someone assures me of their ethics the more skeptical I become.

How would I be able to know whether my agent is wearing her agent hat or her publisher hat when dispensing advice to me on my writing career? I'm not the trusting sort by nature, anyway, and entering this type of arrangement would make me uneasy from the get-go. Actually, no it wouldn't; I flat out would not even consider it. I cannot imagine myself paying someone 15% (or more) to do something I can do myself—or go with someone who already has that expertise—if that's the route I want to take.

IMHO, these agent-as-publisher ventures are preying on the perception that all writers are desperate to be published. Strangely enough, not all of us are. Lordy, it would be nice, but if I die unpublished, so be it.

What this does do is pare the list of agents I will query.
 
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djherren

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I get why all this is happening, I do. Revenue is shrinking, and agents still have to make money. But is this seriously the way to do it? It can't be.

My greatest concern--besides the inherent conflicts--is the time factor. Where is Jessica Faust going to find time to be a publisher if she already didn't have time to respond personally to queries and the like? The simplest answer is that her time investment will necessarily be minimal, so what's the justification for her percentage?
 

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Courtney Milan posted the first of a two-part blog post about this issue. Great food for thought: http://www.courtneymilan.com/ramblings/2011/07/26/an-open-letter-to-agents/

If you can’t figure out what you’re going to do to make it worthwhile for a Joe Konrath, or an Amanda Hocking, or a Bella Andre to stay with you, you don’t have a viable long-term business model. It’s that simple. If your business model is, “let’s hope my authors don’t figure out how to do things on their own,” you don’t have a business model. Your authors are figuring it out, and we’re happy to teach each other how to do it for free.
 

DennyCrane

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Good or bad, these agency/publisher ventures, or agency/publisher-like ventures, are here to stay. There are plenty of people who say that agencies should never be publishers, and plenty more who say that anyone who worries about agencies being publishers is recycling old, tired prejudices--but no one (no one in the business, at least) seems to be looking at things from a practical standpoint--that is, from the standpoint of "Agencies are going to do this no matter what we think, how can we make sure they do it reasonably ethically?"

Backlist only, with a 50/50 profit split and a non-exclusive, limited term grant of digital rights only. A wall between the agency and the publisher (no agency client could use the publisher, no publisher client could be repped by the agency). A clients-only policy (which would mean only backlist or new works by existing clients). If non-clients are accepted by the publisher, a strict no-referral, one-shot-and-you're-out policy (no agency queries would be directed the publisher's way, and you could query either the agency or the publisher--not both). All of these policies, and others, could be reasonably adopted, and would help to provide an ethical framework.

I worry that these established, reputable, successful agencies are relying too much on their own integrity. "Of course we'll operate ethically; we always have done." But it's hard to police yourself when striking out into uncharted waters, and easy to slip across ethical lines by degrees. Adopting some guidelines at the outset might prevent that.

So far, I haven't seen anyone taking that extra step. I hope that'll change.

- Victoria

I'm an attorney and I know that if I were to enter into a business relationship with a client, I'd be in violation of my code of ethics and subject to a wrist slapping...or worse.

Frankly, I'm fine with the 15% for self-pub advocating (editing, advice, etc.). But there are lines being blurred here that open the door to practices that carry the potential for abuse. I'm not worried about the Book Ends-type agencies. I believe they have earned their integrity for a reason. However, where the industry begins to use this new agency-publisher business model, you will see more instances of bait-and-switch with lesser agencies taking advantage of unsuspecting authors.

The author, now more than ever, has to be informed of the industry and become an expert in publishing. And really, this isn't much to ask. It's something the author should do anyway.
 

veinglory

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Are they limiting themselves to 15%? That is relatively restrained compared to previous agent-epublishing deals (~50%). Assuming they are actually good at epublishing of course. IMHO, ebooks with no excerpts/samples for readers is not a good start.
 
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veinglory

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Looking a little closer, they get the 15% solely for putting the completed book into distribution. By our usual metric, that would make this a vanity press as the agent/publisher provides services for which the author pays them cash money.

"The clients cover the costs of conversion, the cover, editing (if necessary), etc., and we manage all the books once they are ready to be loaded to the sites."


 

Deb Kinnard

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If ever I did this (and my agency doesn't currently offer such services, only the traditional "let's sell your book" things), I'd want not a percentage but a flat fee. After all, if I put out on my e-loops a solicitation for someone to edit for me, or design a cover, or do layout, I'd be talking flat fee. Why should an agency's similar services be any different? It's a one-off, book by book, so IMO should be paid as a one-off.

If I'm 180 degrees wrong on this, I'd like to hear reasons and will mull them with all respect.
 

Adobedragon

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If ever I did this (and my agency doesn't currently offer such services, only the traditional "let's sell your book" things), I'd want not a percentage but a flat fee. After all, if I put out on my e-loops a solicitation for someone to edit for me, or design a cover, or do layout, I'd be talking flat fee. Why should an agency's similar services be any different? It's a one-off, book by book, so IMO should be paid as a one-off.

If I'm 180 degrees wrong on this, I'd like to hear reasons and will mull them with all respect.

I agree. But then, I'm a small business owner. I don't have any problem managing sub-contractors and the like. I don't see any reason to pay an agent %15 to acquire me an editor, cover designer, etc. I can do that. It's a question of valued added and as I see it, the agent as a publisher adds none.
 

veinglory

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Given that they say they are providing cover art, you would be paying 15% for them to aquire the art, and then paying for the art.

But according to them you are acquiring the art, that they just happen to also make, and the 15% is for distribution and marketing of the finished result. It doesn't relate to the editing and packaging per se.
 

victoriastrauss

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If ever I did this (and my agency doesn't currently offer such services, only the traditional "let's sell your book" things), I'd want not a percentage but a flat fee. After all, if I put out on my e-loops a solicitation for someone to edit for me, or design a cover, or do layout, I'd be talking flat fee. Why should an agency's similar services be any different? It's a one-off, book by book, so IMO should be paid as a one-off.

I think I agree with you. A flat fee would be cleaner, would sidestep the rights issue, and would avoid all the "is it publishing? Isn't it publishing? No, it's ESTRIBUTING!!" confusion.

Of course, the conflict of interest issues would remain.

- Victoria
 

veinglory

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But you would pay a flat fee for editing and packaging. That is *not* what they are offering under the 15% deal. The author is already paying for that out of pocket.

The 15% offer starts only when the book is completely finished and digital bookshelf ready. It is for distribution and promotion of that finished book.
 

Kitty27

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This doesn't sit well with me. It opens a whole new can of potential phuckery. I don't want an agent that wears two hats. An agent has to focus on business for his/her clients and writers that are trying to get in with them. Just how is said agent going to find the time to do all of this? There are only so many hours in each day. I want an agent that focuses on traditional pubs and being an agent only. Not running a side hustle full of potential hot messes and drama.

Why put in work for a novel when you know that it can be published by your agency instead? Can you be sure that an agent that also publishes would truly put forth the effort for your book? I know we should trust the agency's reputation but I'm a cynical chick. Sometimes,money makes ethics and whatnot fly out the window.

If you're not satisfied with their publishing venture,just who do you complain to? The agent is the publisher. So,if you feel screwed or pissed about something,who exists to check the agent? What if other issues arise? Are you going to have to get an agent to deal with YOUR agent?

Will your agent get a bit of "tude" if you do so? Things could go to the left quite quickly.

Just what do they do that a self pubbed author with determination and hard work can't?

If queries are coming in,will said agent "kindly" suggest that the writer publish with them once they take them on? Or run game saying that they just can't sell the book but are oh so ready to offer their publishing services?

For writers that are very serious minded and see prizes/reviews from like minded peers in their futures,will self-pubbed books be taken seriously? Will they be up for things like The Man Booker Prize? Correct me if I'm wrong,but are self-pubbed books even considered?

I wouldn't sign with an agency that has this situation going on. There is too much going on here for my tastes.
 
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