Siren Publishing / Rapture Publishing / BookStrand

KimJo · Oct 4, 2010

Agreed. Sales figures for any one author can vary widely across publishers, and sales by any one publisher can vary widely among their authors.

I don't have all my sales figures handy, nor would I post them if I did. However, I will say (having just checked this morning) that the lone novella I published with Siren, a contemporary hetero romance, has sold fewer than 30 copies directly from Siren's site since January of this year when it came out. This despite promos and interviews, etc., that I've done. Don't know offhand how it's done through third party distributors.

I'm not complaining, just stating that there is a wide range of sales figures amongst Siren authors, just as I assume there would be with any publisher. However, I do feel Siren is a good publisher, does well by their authors overall, and if I wrote something again that I thought would fit them, I would submit again.

Sydewinder · Oct 4, 2010

triceretops said:
If you want to e-pub, don your hard hat and get your azz over to veinglory's site and read the numbers. Start at the top and stop. Stay there and pub with the giants. If you must.

Bolding mine

Just remember, THE TOP for epublishing is still the major print publishers. They sell ebooks too (All pubs do nowadays), and they do a far better job than the best e-only publisher. Unless you write in a genre that is not picked up by other publishers, going the e-book route is just limiting your sales potential.We all know that ebooks account for about 10% of total book sales, but I think it would be a mistake not to realize that 9.99999% of that 10% is still dominated by the big print pubs.

triceretops · Oct 4, 2010

Sydewinder said:
Bolding mine

Just remember, THE TOP for epublishing is still the major print publishers. They sell ebooks too (All pubs do nowadays), and they do a far better job than the best e-only publisher. Unless you write in a genre that is not picked up by other publishers, going the e-book route is just limiting your sales potential.We all know that ebooks account for about 10% of total book sales, but I think it would be a mistake not to realize that 9.99999% of that 10% is still dominated by the big print pubs.

I agreed with this analogy--The big print boys are and will dominate in the e-field for their fanbase. I said this.

I'm also not talking about novella's or short stories in e-pubs. Cripes, I can see where those would fly off the virtual shelf--what are the cost of those VS the novels? Mine was a super novel, and that was my first shot at e-pub--I have no fanbase there. But that was my point for the newbie writer, so I'll clarify that by saying they/we cannot expect to sell in these massive numbers when they're seeing these very high reported figures. Somebody covered that point well.

You're right, it is none of my or your business to throw our personal sales out there. Me, I don't give a shit. I'm too old and have been doing this too long to not expose the reality side of this business. I'll always do it, and I don't give two hoots and a cheese cracker about my standing or rep. If it opens a newb's eye to some blunt core reality, I've done my job. Take me with a grain or pound of salt. I showed you the other side of the coin.

Yes, there are exceptions, and this is MY example, in no way representative of the very successful e-pubbed authors out there. Clarify: for an e-pub debut author I'm probably pretty typical of what's happening out there, except that I might be below average.

For any e-pubbed author that keeps track of their sales, reads the industry news, makes comparisons and submits their stories/novels to e-pub houses, I find it extraordinary that they have not heard of Lyrical Press. Uh, have you seen the thread here on them? They're a blip on the radar, a fairly new one, but a blip nevertheless.

If we did not have Emily's comparision site, what the heck else is out there that's feeds us anything about numbers? Her's is an on-going site, remember. It's building. It's a good reference. Soon it will be a great reference--the cat's meow. She's got guts, going out on a limb to post these stats, knowing that she'd probably get hell-fire flak from somebody that's going to dispute a few data points or question analysis. I don't see anybody else doing us a favor, exept the "Show Me the Money" gal. Almost forgot about P. Anthony.

You know what scares me about e-pubs, as of late? Even my own? It's so damn close to the author mill mentality and mission statement that it gives me the shivers. K-Mart tactics--"we'll sell masses of products to the masses to make up for our low-end." Ask not what you can do for the author; ask what you can do for your publisher. Uh, huh.

Tri-advocate

veinglory · Oct 4, 2010

Piers also published his own sales as do a few others--all remarkably consistent. And for the record all feedback I have had about EREC from established epublishers has been supportive. Several presses inclusing Ellora's Cave have reported data directly. The only flack is when I hang a warning sign on an epublisher when the reports of non-payment start coming in.

triceretops · Oct 4, 2010

veinglory said:
Piers also published his own sales as do a few others--all remarkably consistent. And for the record all feedback I have had about EREC from established epublishers has been supportive. Several presses inclusing Ellora's Cave have reported data directly. The only flack is when I hang a warning sign on an epublisher when the reports of non-payment start coming in.

Glad that you're getting support. I stumbled upon your site a little late in game some time back. But I found the numbers and comments to ring pretty true about what's happening. I was unaware at the time that cave, sammy and some others were as large and popular as they were. I've always appreciated Piers' site, kind of a watch-dog archive. His own personal sales numbers were kind of an eye-opener for me and taken to heart. I admire him and his efforts to protect and inform the writer.

Tri

gingerwoman · Oct 7, 2010

triceretops said:
I don't believe the numbers at ALL. I've seen so much exageration in the e-pub business from publishers (and writer newbs) who are start-ups, all the way up to the big five number-one hitters. I don't know whether these people are suffering from delusions of grandure or compensating for some type of self-inflicted inadequacy associated with e-pubbing in the first place. Eighty percent of the time when an e-pub author bleats out that they are a bestseller on Kindle for (name your genre), what they neglect to tell you is that they've sold more titles than the other authors in their PUBLISHER'S database--not overall Kindle sales. Considering how many e-pubs are out there and the questionable quality of the product, compounded with the problematic low sales beneath them, they might have ripped off a couple hundred sales, max. An achievement for a best-seller in your own e-pub stable? Perhaps. Who is the publisher, though, and how many titles did you fight off for that rank?

My e-publisher is clearly more recognized than these bozos, at least I think so. I've had about nine reviews/interviews for one of my paranormal romance titles; it's currently appearing on six online stores; I dumped that title into 30+ (member) display sites, plastered the reviews all over hell's half acre and then spamed the frickin world for nine months--two months shorter than its lifespan. I held third place for highest ranked title for eight months overall for my PUBLISHER'S front and back list (beating out 180 authors). Not Kindle's list. My publisher busted her ovaries going after every vendor and review source on this planet, with a knife in one hand and a money bag in the other (bless her heart). All the reviews were four and five stars. All ducks in a row, asks you? Pretty much for an average author, good genre seller, great cover art and a medium-size e-pub with a good rep. AVERAGE is key word here.

I don't know why people are so afraid to post their true numbers. I believe it is your business to know.

The reality: 63 books sold in 11 months (pretty damn close to that mysterious 75 digit we've heard about). One from Amazon, the rest from Fictionwise. The majority sold in the first three months. Thereafter I've sold one copy per month. This book is dead now. I didn't regret the decision--I had to find out for myself what the average e-pub bottom line was all about.

In the e-pub world you'll find those truthful high numbers with the largest, established giants like Sammy, Cave, and the liquid one. There's a few more, but the point remains; it's location, location, location (name recognition), plus longevity, plus quality product, plus genre = huge fanbase, which generates repeat business for outstanding sales.

We're at the thresold right now where we don't have the demand to encourage the supply in e-publishing. The major print publishers, having dragged their tails long enough, are now scrambling to get ALL their titles on electricity, so you can forget about "e-publishing is the wave of the future and it's going to take over the industry" crap.

If you want to e-pub, don your hard hat and get your azz over to veinglory's site and read the numbers. Start at the top and stop. Stay there and pub with the giants. If you must.

Thank you for listening to this service announcement.

Tri--red-shifting

I've noticed that they don't seem to be on writers' radars and aren't on Veinglory's site.
I've also noticed that they have certain types of books that have high sales on Amazon.com Mostly they seem to have a reputation for sexy westerns. I think if you write erotic westerns they sell like hotcakes over there.
Also I have bought a couple of books from them, and they were really good. And a lot of erotic ebooks I have bought I never finished reading because they were boring. I finished both of these.

triceretops · Oct 8, 2010

The poster was throwing around, initially, the number of 10,000 copies A MONTH, although not necessarily of a single title, and implying that anyone could do the same. When called on the numbers, the poster adjusted it to 2,500 copies a month as a low-ball figure for sales there, again, probably not of a single title, but cumulative of several. And even that seems high, unless an author is releasing 10 books a year (figure on the high side, with 1,0000 copies in the first month, and then dribs and drabs of the other books over several years to cover the other 1,500 copies).

Just to clarify, the above is what I found unbelievably disturbing. Especially from a writer who claims to be with this publisher. Any author who PMs me with legitimate proof that they have sold just 1,000 copies for a single novel-length title from this publisher, then I'll eat my virtual fedora online. To be sure. The next thing I'll ask (around a mouth-full) is how in the hell did you do that?

Tri

michael_b · Oct 8, 2010

triceretops said:
The poster was throwing around, initially, the number of 10,000 copies A MONTH, although not necessarily of a single title, and implying that anyone could do the same. When called on the numbers, the poster adjusted it to 2,500 copies a month as a low-ball figure for sales there, again, probably not of a single title, but cumulative of several. And even that seems high, unless an author is releasing 10 books a year (figure on the high side, with 1,0000 copies in the first month, and then dribs and drabs of the other books over several years to cover the other 1,500 copies).

Just to clarify, the above is what I found unbelievably disturbing. Especially from a writer who claims to be with this publisher. Any author who PMs me with legitimate proof that they have sold just 1,000 copies for a single novel-length title from this publisher, then I'll eat my virtual fedora online. To be sure. The next thing I'll ask (around a mouth-full) is how in the hell did you do that?

Tri

That 75 copies sold was way below the average. I don't know what your subject/genre was, but I can state that my books--and I'm only a 'mid-lister'--sell in the three figures in the initial couple weeks of sales, with additional sales coming in at a steady rate of 1 (for the femdom)-20 (for the m/m titles) per month after that at my main publisher.

Unfortunately what we often hear is true: You can't tell if or how well a book is going to sell.

The story I disliked the most actually made the Bestsellers list at Fictionwise by selling hundreds of copies there. The one I like the most hardly sells any copies at all. Go figure.

shameless · Oct 11, 2010

Just a note from a Siren-BookStrand author --

My publishers reached the 2 million books sold mark today, so I'd say they're doing something right. Congratulations to the Siren-BookStrand publishing team! You're a joy to work with! :partyguy:

brainstorm77 · Oct 11, 2010

I can see them having way better than average sales. Their books are everywhere. I say bravo. It shows they are doing something right.

jennontheisland · Oct 11, 2010

shameless said:
Just a note from a Siren-BookStrand author --

My publishers reached the 2 million books sold mark today, so I'd say they're doing something right. Congratulations to the Siren-BookStrand publishing team! You're a joy to work with!

How many individual titles have they had on the shelves during the time that 2M were sold?

Sydewinder · Oct 11, 2010

jennontheisland said:
How many individual titles have they had on the shelves during the time that 2M were sold?

QFT.

Number of TOTAL sales means about zero. I'm sure Publish America can say that they have a two million sales, too. Too bad it's only 2 sales of a million different titles. Not saying that's the case here, just that that statement is misleading.

a) how many copies has their top seller (single title) sold
b) what are the average sales per book.

Those are the facts I'm curious about.

ETA: Looks like they had their 700th title published on September 28th . . . when did they open their doors? their blog starts mid 2008, does that mean they've published about 350 titles a year? That can't be right.

jennontheisland · Oct 11, 2010

2,000,000 total books sold with 700 titles available over that period averages to over 2,800 sales per title.

That number is more than double what EREC reports as "average total sales for books out for one year or more" from Samhain and Ellora's Cave.
http://www.erecsite.com/SALES.html

Sydewinder · Oct 11, 2010

I agree, if those numbers are accurate I'd say they're miles above many other epublishers.

Semi-Pro · Oct 11, 2010

Sydewinder said:
I agree, if those numbers are accurate I'd say they're miles above many other epublishers.

Wow, how wonderful for them if those numbers are accurate.

I've been watching SP since they opened back in 2005, and I must say that to me, at least, they remain an enigma. The little I hear about them remains mostly positive, and though I've never had dealings with them, many of us blog readers noticed how quickly they move to put out a quality product. Over the years, they've dumped three writers (that I'm aware of) when reviewers assigned low grades to certain titles. Seems they run a tight ship, and I don't see anything wrong with that. Although, I do hope their vetting process has improved...dismissing an author because of a sloppy/unedited manuscript they agreed to publish kind of rubbed me the wrong way. Each time it happened, I was like, "d'oh!"

I'm a bit of a cynic, so I'll admit that the reason I've never taken the large sale numbers seriously is probably a petty one: the authors I know write for love AND money. I watch the same names circling the Big Five and to a lesser extent, what I call the second tier. And now that known quantities like Harlequin/Carina and Red Sage have entered the building, I see many authors from the first tier e-pubs signing with them. These authors are not at Siren.

None of this is to say that Siren isn't a great publisher in its own right; I particularly loved them for stepping in to help out ex-Triskelion authors. But after reading some of the numbers being bandied about, I keep waiting for a "big get." Meaning a top earner, a known quantity, taking her place on Siren's roster. Hell, Red Rose published two extremely popular NY-pubbed authors. Even New Concepts got some play a few years ago from NY-pubbed authors (before they burned down their company). So, yeah, I'm cynical. Until one of the BETTER KNOWN (I'm aware that some of Siren's roster are with the majors) EC, Samhain, Loose Id, LSB, Amber Quill or Changeling author begins cranking out books for them, I'll always question those fabulous numbers.

jennontheisland · Oct 11, 2010

Sydewinder said:
ETA: Looks like they had their 700th title published on September 28th . . . when did they open their doors? their blog starts mid 2008, does that mean they've published about 350 titles a year? That can't be right.

There are three publishers listed in the title of the thread. Which one hit 2M (or was it a total for all three) and which one has 700 books?

As for the 350 / year... that's more than Ravenous.

shameless · Oct 12, 2010

I believe the 2 million is from sales at all outlets for all their imprints, and yes, they have released 700 individual titles. I know this because my book All the Right Reasons is a free download in celebration of that 700th hundred title.

Remember, they've helped start the careers of several fantastic writers, including the fabulous Emma Wildes.

veinglory · Oct 12, 2010

Is 700 the total number of titles contributing to the 2 mill figure? Currently both numbers cannot be confirmed-- including those now out of print? Where, exactly, did both numbers cone from?

shameless · Oct 12, 2010

veinglory said:
Is 700 the total number of titles contributing to the 2 mill figure? Currently both numbers cannot be confirmed-- including those now out of print? Where, exactly, did both numbers cone from?

Those numbers were released by my publisher. If you have issue with them, and I don't understand why you would, please feel free to contact them.

veinglory · Oct 12, 2010

My only "issue" is to ensure I don't make any comment unless numbers are both accurate and issued publically or directly to me (per book by the author, per publisher by the publisher).

shameless · Oct 12, 2010

This is a cut/paste of the announcement on their public loop. That should qualify as "from the publisher."

Siren-BookStrand is proud to announce we have sold over

2,000,000 books

as of September 30, 2010.

(From all sources.)

Launched: January 1, 2006
Number of Authors: 242
Number of Published Titles: 730

michael_b · Oct 12, 2010

shameless said:
This is a cut/paste of the announcement on their public loop. That should qualify as "from the publisher."

Siren-BookStrand is proud to announce we have sold over

2,000,000 books

as of September 30, 2010.

(From all sources.)

Launched: January 1, 2006
Number of Authors: 242
Number of Published Titles: 730

So that's total sales since 2006 across all branches of their company and from all vendors?

That would give an average of 2,739.7 per title? Hmmm...

I know authors who say they've had books sell in the 2000+ copy range with Siren. If they're doing that good, they might be someone for me to check out.

jennontheisland · Oct 12, 2010

michael_b said:
So that's total sales since 2006 across all branches of their company and from all vendors?

That would give an average of 2,739.7 per title? Hmmm...

I know authors who say they've had books sell in the 2000+ copy range with Siren. If they're doing that good, they might be someone for me to check out.

The thing I wonder though: if they're doing that good, why didn't you jump as soon as you heard the numbers? Likely the same reason I didn't when I heard them: skepticism. Siren flies well below the radar of most writers I know. Ask anyone who's either epubbed or submitting to epubs who the big three or big five are and you rarely, if ever, see Siren in the response.

Perhaps Shameless and some of her cohorts at Siren would be willing to send their sales data to Veinglory so that it can be tracked and analysed by an independent third party.

ETA: I notice on the Bookstrand.com site the header includes "popular ebooks from your favorite publishers" and the New Arrivals include books published by Solstice Publishing and Wild Child Publishing. Neither of which are Siren. Were the 2M Siren books only? Or were the 2M just sold through the Siren-Bookstrand storefront?

triceretops · Oct 12, 2010

I e-pubbed all over hell's half acre, and honestly I never ran across Siren. If the average title is pulling 2,700 + for each book, that would mean there are a lot of writers there who have possibly sold over 5,000 per title or even more. And I wonder why I'm not hearing about the big pub houses flocking after those authors and their books for print rights. Yet, I did not take into consideration that they have been open for almost four years. Still...those kind of averages, or the higher totes, would sustain an agent. Are they carried by Fictionwise?

Tri

jennontheisland · Oct 12, 2010

triceretops said:
I e-pubbed all over hell's half acre, and honestly I never ran across Siren. If the average title is pulling 2,700 + for each book, that would mean there are a lot of writers there who have possibly sold over 5,000 per title or even more. And I wonder why I'm not hearing about the big pub houses flocking after those authors and their books for print rights. Yet, I did not take into consideration that they have been open for almost four years. Still...those kind of averages, or the higher totes, would sustain an agent. Are they carried by Fictionwise?

Tri

Yes, Fictionwise has them.
http://www.fictionwise.com/ebooks/publisherlist.htm

Siren Publishing / Rapture Publishing / BookStrand

Outside the box, with the werewolves

volitare nequeo

So many ideas, never enough time.

Superlative Type A

practical experience, FTW

the world is at my command

the world is at my command

the world is at my command

Superlative Type A

volitare nequeo

Superlative Type A

volitare nequeo

Superlative Type A

So many ideas, never enough time.

the world is at my command

the world is at my command