The f-bomb in fantasy. (Adult Language Warning)
- Thread starter sirensix
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Yes, that won't knock anyone out of the story.
The knights faced each other across the courtyard. The king and queen watched as the jousting tournament began. The two knights raced toward each other, lances pointing at the opponent. With a crash of metal and flesh, the red knight was knocked from his horse.
The queen cried, "Shazbut! That was certainly very entertaining!"
The knights faced each other across the courtyard. The king and queen watched as the jousting tournament began. The two knights raced toward each other, lances pointing at the opponent. With a crash of metal and flesh, the red knight was knocked from his horse.
The queen cried, "Shazbut! That was certainly very entertaining!"
i think im going to try to rerail before this thread goes bye bye to tthe TIO.
i have no problem with the word fuck in a story. if it fits the character to say something like that when mad, then i will not throw me out of the story.
i have no problem with the word fuck in a story. if it fits the character to say something like that when mad, then i will not throw me out of the story.
Or 'By Scarlettpeaches boobies, good shot!'
If you're in a fantasy world and you have prominent gods, I always think they'd figure in the cursing.
Or, as Ilfayne would say 'By Herjan's bloody arse, I'm going to fry someone's eyes today!'
I'm going to write a fantasy novel now just so I can have a character ejaculate, "By the hairy scrotum of Flibblegarb!"
"Oh dear me"
Is this a modern or a high fantasy? Modern, I'd think there would be no trouble with dropping an f bomb, but in a high fantasy, I'd reconsider. I personally don't use it in my writing because as Ambrosia said, it sounds too modern.
Well, I keep saying this, but my dialogue is all translated from other made-up languages anyway, so why translate into anything other than modern English? And second of all, I'm not sure mine qualifies as "high" fantasy. Closest analogy really is George R. R. Martin's fantasy, in that it's set in a historical setting but is very gritty and down to earth.
However, even Martin has his characters speak in kind of a "ye olde" way at times (despite use of the f-bomb, he uses a lot of non-modern words and sentence construction). I really don't understand the point of that. Why translate to an older form of English when even the Bible isn't really doing that anymore? I can't have my characters speak the way they're REALLY speaking, because they're speaking Ancient Kyrethian. If I choose to translate Ancient Kyrethian into modern rather than medieval/Renaissance English, what's the big deal?
I agree with these sentiments. The type of cursing I like to see is something consistant with and unique to the world you've created.
Yeah, but "By the blistering bollocks of Bantharr" or whatever, though colorful, just doesn't sound quite as VICIOUS. No made-up curse word does. What do you do when you need something short, to the point, brutal, and truly vile?
I don't see the point of making up entirely new curse words for a fantasy world. If it has long ears and hops, just call it a rabbit, right? Don't people f*** in other worlds too? Don't they have a vulgar word for it? Why wouldn't we "translate" it into the vulgar word WE have for it when telling the story?
Why go to the trouble to make up some fake curse word? How does using the f-bomb take people more out of the moment than throwing some fake word in there? I'm trying to get people to focus on what's happening, not how clever I am at making up new words. For me, made-up words throw me out of the moment a LOT more than an f-bomb. I want my dialogue to be somewhat "invisible" to the reader; I don't want it slowing them down as they try to remember who Bantharr is and why his bollocks would be blistered. Even the use of "frak" in BSG throws me every time I hear it. Fake curses just sound stupid to me.
I feel like the f-word DOES blend more into the world I'm making. It's raw, it's brutal, people are washing out menstrual blood in the river and dying of abscessed teeth and getting their brains smashed in by bronze maces. Why wouldn't they use something with similar punch to the f-bomb? If you're translating from Russian or Spanish, you translate the curse words into English, right? Why wouldn't you do the same for Ancient Kyrethian?
Keep in mind, if I seem like I'm beating a dead horse that a) no one has actually addressed this question yet - instead I've had about half a dozen people all say the same thing without explaining it - and b) the question I was seeking an answer to in the first place was "If there IS foul language in my story in the middle, how do I prepare the reader for it at the beginning so it's not such a shock?"
I am not saying that people are wrong if they think the f-bomb should not be used in fantasy, but I really would like to know WHY they think that. I don't understand why we can't translate into Modern English to make the dialogue flow more smoothly to the reader's ear. If someone could answer that for me I'd be really grateful.
I don't see the point of making up entirely new curse words for a fantasy world. If it has long ears and hops, just call it a rabbit, right? Don't people f*** in other worlds too? Don't they have a vulgar word for it? Why wouldn't we "translate" it into the vulgar word WE have for it when telling the story?
Why go to the trouble to make up some fake curse word? How does using the f-bomb take people more out of the moment than throwing some fake word in there? I'm trying to get people to focus on what's happening, not how clever I am at making up new words. For me, made-up words throw me out of the moment a LOT more than an f-bomb. I want my dialogue to be somewhat "invisible" to the reader; I don't want it slowing them down as they try to remember who Bantharr is and why his bollocks would be blistered. Even the use of "frak" in BSG throws me every time I hear it. Fake curses just sound stupid to me.
I feel like the f-word DOES blend more into the world I'm making. It's raw, it's brutal, people are washing out menstrual blood in the river and dying of abscessed teeth and getting their brains smashed in by bronze maces. Why wouldn't they use something with similar punch to the f-bomb? If you're translating from Russian or Spanish, you translate the curse words into English, right? Why wouldn't you do the same for Ancient Kyrethian?
Keep in mind, if I seem like I'm beating a dead horse that a) no one has actually addressed this question yet - instead I've had about half a dozen people all say the same thing without explaining it - and b) the question I was seeking an answer to in the first place was "If there IS foul language in my story in the middle, how do I prepare the reader for it at the beginning so it's not such a shock?"
I am not saying that people are wrong if they think the f-bomb should not be used in fantasy, but I really would like to know WHY they think that. I don't understand why we can't translate into Modern English to make the dialogue flow more smoothly to the reader's ear. If someone could answer that for me I'd be really grateful.
*cough* answered on the first page, several times *cough*
In answer to the 'made up swear words' I didn't advocate that ( I hate the frak thing too) - but to take a look at your world and think what they would say that fits in with the culture you've built. If that word is fuck, then have at it. If you can think of something else that really fits in with your culture, have at that. Or both.
Tbh I wouldn't put a book down for using fuck in a fantasy. If it works it works. But you may alienate some readers. It's up to you.
Oh, yes, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to imply that my original question wasn't answered. I think you can see from my posts that I decided what to do about that. The question I meant that was not answered was "Why can't I use the f-bomb in fantasy at all?" I'm just now concerned about the fact that so many people are saying I shouldn't use the f-word at all, and I'm trying to understand why that is so I can figure out if they're right or if they're coming from a point of view that's irrelevant to the story I'm trying to tell.
I think people are saying, "Don't use 'fuck'," NOT because it's overly offensive, but because it's anachronistic.
When it comes to causing offence, so what? You have to be true to the characters and for ever one person who drops the book, there will be ten more to pick it up.
HOWEVER - you might jerk the reader out of the story if you use a profanity that isn't appropriate to that time and place.
See, either way it's about authenticity. If your characters say 'fuck', then let them. However, if the setting makes this unlikely, choose another swear word.
When it comes to causing offence, so what? You have to be true to the characters and for ever one person who drops the book, there will be ten more to pick it up.
HOWEVER - you might jerk the reader out of the story if you use a profanity that isn't appropriate to that time and place.
See, either way it's about authenticity. If your characters say 'fuck', then let them. However, if the setting makes this unlikely, choose another swear word.
Um, you can. Didn't hurt old GRRM any did it?
Some people may not like it. Some won't care. But lets face it, whatever you do it'll put a portion of readers off - you cannot please everyone. If you can't use fuck, then you can't use sardonic, or bugger or sodomy or...as was posted up thread. How far do YOU want to take it?
Bugger - what SP said too. Damn ninja woman.
I know!!! And this is what's driving me mad!!!!
Let me think if there is some other way I can say this, because obviously I am failing completely at putting myself across, and it's really starting to frustrate me.
Let's start by having someone answer this direct question: "What exactly makes the f-word anachronistic?"
And re: GRRM, when I'm 60-something years old and already famous, I imagine I can do whatever I want. Right now, I need to make sure my first effort pleases as many readers as possible.
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Because it is a word that only came into usage at a certain time in our history. And as many fantasys are set in pseudo medieval times, it would not have been in common usage then. It's slang. Each country / culture has their own slang, so to use it ii an alternate world MIGHT by some be considered anachronistic.
BUT if you take the view that you are only translating, it's not a problem. It all depends on your style, and how far YOU want to take it
BUT if you take the view that you are only translating, it's not a problem. It all depends on your style, and how far YOU want to take it
Using it in a novel set before the time period it first became popular in the real world, I would imagine.
That is exactly the view I take. But now I'm worried about it, because so few people seem to think this way, and I want to know why they don't.
Yes, the word only came into usage at a certain time in our history (14th century was it?) But this isn't our history. This is the history of another world, where the English language is not even spoken, anywhere, by anyone. So how can the use of any English word be called "anachronistic?"
I know exactly why I (as translator from Ancient Kyrethian to modern English) chose that particular word. But all my wonderful reasoning doesn't matter if everyone who reads it is going to stop and go, "Ugh, that word doesn't belong." I don't want readers doing that. I just want them to be enjoying the story. But won't they stop and go "ugh" if I insert some weird f-bomb substitute as well? Is my only recourse to have really pissed-off warriors speaking like Disney characters?
*tears hair out*
Ugh, I hate days when BOTH of my current WIP seem doomed.
Darlin' whatever you do, you won't please ALL your readers. It's impossible.
So do your thang. You want it as a translation - cool. Won't bother me, or many other people in the slightest. It might bother others, but if you please them, you'll upset a whole other load.
So just just doooOOOOit!
Sorry, bit of Flasheart crept in there.
So do your thang. You want it as a translation - cool. Won't bother me, or many other people in the slightest. It might bother others, but if you please them, you'll upset a whole other load.
So just just doooOOOOit!
Sorry, bit of Flasheart crept in there.
Like the beard bridesmaid, gives me something to HANG on to!
And please, will you stop agreeing with me SP. It's making me nervous.
And please, will you stop agreeing with me SP. It's making me nervous.
In different cultures people have different ways of swearing. The three major categories are religion, sex, and excrement. Which of those a culture mainly uses says something about that culture. It reveals which concepts have the most power for them.
In my opinion, contemporary American swearing is quite limited in that it relies heavily on a single word. I also think the sexual concepts embedded in that word follow directly from American culture (overall) still being Puritanically uptight about sex.
If you translate all of your Medieval-style swearing into the F-bomb, you're missing an opportunity to show something about your culture.
Does that mean translating is wrong? Not at all. It just means that, like every other choice, it has pros and cons.
In my opinion, contemporary American swearing is quite limited in that it relies heavily on a single word. I also think the sexual concepts embedded in that word follow directly from American culture (overall) still being Puritanically uptight about sex.
If you translate all of your Medieval-style swearing into the F-bomb, you're missing an opportunity to show something about your culture.
Does that mean translating is wrong? Not at all. It just means that, like every other choice, it has pros and cons.
The earliest for-certain uses are in late 1400's/early 1500's texts. There are some possible etymologically similar words/references before that, but it's less certain whether they're actually uses or precursors of "fuck" or if they just sound like it.
Either way, I'd say it was definitely around and probably common among the lower classes by the end of the Middle Ages, and possibly earlier, so I think it's definitely appropriate to Medieval-set fantasies.
Furthermore, it seems to me we can safely assume most characters in fantasy aren't actually speaking English anyway, and just about every language has some equivalent of the word "fuck." Why, then, is it so hard to assume that the word "fuck" has been "translated" by the author from their fantasy societal equivalent like the rest of the dialogue is assumed to be?
Saying "fuck" is anachronistic or shouldn't exist in fantasy always struck me as silly. I do agree that it is one of those genres where it should be set up rather early that it'll have curses still in use today, otherwise they can feel out-of-place later in the story. But it's not like a character in an atheist society saying "hell" or "oh god!"
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