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Energy becoming Matter: examples please?

Higgins

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Thanks for all the info and thoughts and discussion, everyone!

I followed up on some of the research some of you suggested, and one of the tidbits I ran across (though now I'm wondering if I wasn't delirious and imagined I read it, or rather dreamt I read it) was the statement that all of the energy our Sun produces, if converted back into matter, wouldn't add up to the mass of a cheeseburger.

Not surprisingly, hearing that confused me again (and now I cannot find that article again to re-read it) :)

I suppose talk like that would've gotten Galileo into deeper trouble with both the Church (who, let us remember, basically sentenced him to go home and stay there and eat cheeseburgers) and the cutting-edge Scientific crowd who thought the Universe revolved around the Sun attached to perfect crystal spheres!

Anyway ... thanks for the interesting ideas!

Here's something on Solar fusion:

http://www.tim-thompson.com/fusion.html

And Galileo didn't have so much of a problem with the cutting-edge crystal sphere crowd
since Copernicus had already started on breaking up that image of the cosmos and the crystal spheres were no longer cutting-edge science.
 

dobiwon

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Energy will transform into matter as something of finite mass approaches the speed of light. Here is an example with electrons:
Inside the Advanced Light Source, electrons are boosted up to a very high kinetic energy of 1.5 billion electron volts (1.5 GeV). During the very early part of this energy boost, the electrons are in the speed range covered by Newtonian physics, and most of their
gain in kinetic energy comes from speeding up. As the electrons approach the speed of light, they move into the relativistic regime, and successive energy boosts produce more change in the electrons’ masses than in their speeds.

Here's the link.
 

Popeyesays

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I'm not sure what you mean here. E=mc2 is a linear equation. The c is a constant, so double the m and you double the E.




I've heard some people propose that in the future we will be able to aim hundreds of high energy lasers at the same point in space, and the energy density will be so high that matter and anti-matter will be produced. In that way we could produce anti-matter fuel.

I can't find any references for that, unfortunately.

It's not e=mc2, it's e=mc(squared). Square 186,000 kilometers per second and see what you get. It's somewhat larger than doubling.

Regards,
Scott
 
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dobiwon

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It's not e=mc2, it's e=mc(squared). Square 186,000 kilometers per second and see what you get. It's somewhat larger than doubling.
What RedRobin says is true--E is proportional to m--if m is doubled, then E is doubled. No matter what though, E is always c-squared times as big as m.
 

oscuridad

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Supernova. When a star goes supernova it creates the heavier elements found on the periodic table, like gold. Most heavy elements are formed this way.
Jeff

ALL heavy elements are formed in this way. We are stardust, man.
 

blacbird

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Supernova. When a star goes supernova it creates the heavier elements found on the periodic table, like gold. Most heavy elements are formed this way.

But it doesn't create these heavy atomic nuclei out of energy. It creates them through forced fusion of protons and neutrons already in existence as part of the stellar mass.

caw
 

benbradley

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But it doesn't create these heavy atomic nuclei out of energy. It creates them through forced fusion of protons and neutrons already in existence as part of the stellar mass.

caw
It's both, though of course the vast majority of 'stuff' in an atom is still the protons, neutrons and electrons. But the total mass of an atom is DIFFERENT form the sum of its subatomic particles' separated, individual masses.

Here's a Google search applicable to my earlier post. I just KNEW I wasn't imagining this stuff - I should have paid a little more attention in chemistry and physics classes, I might have remembered these keywords:
http://www.google.com/search?q="binding+energy"+"mass+defect

Most links discuss only nuclear binding energy, as the change in mass is more significant with atomic/nuclear reactions because they involve so much more energy change per unit mass than do chemical and mechanical interactions. But a few of the links do discuss binding energy and mass defect as related to other forces and systems, such as the Wikipedia entry, and this link:
http://www.egglescliffe.org.uk/physics/relativity/binener.html
 

blacbird

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It's both, though of course the vast majority of 'stuff' in an atom is still the protons, neutrons and electrons. But the total mass of an atom is DIFFERENT form the sum of its subatomic particles' separated, individual masses.

Yes, of course, although the amount of energy transformation is very, very small, as you have implied. My main point was that supernovas do not just transform raw energy into new heavy atomic nuclei.

caw
 

Jeff Colburn

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Here's something I just found.

Question - If matter can be "converted" to energy, as suggested by
the theory of relativity, can energy be alternately "converted" to
matter? what conditions are needed to carry out this process?
Also.. if particles could be created by this process, is there a way to
form matter that is stable? Or would all matter formed thus be prone to
>decay?
>
>Yes. This happens all the time in the target area of a particle
>accelerator. Both stable and unstable particles can be made in this
>way. You always make particle-antiparticle pairs, so you need energy
>equivalent to twice the rest mass of a particle to get anything.
>
>Tim Mooney
=========================================================
>Matter can be formed from energy.
>
>One example of this is reverse beta-decay. If an electron, an
>anti-neutrino, and a proton come together with enough kinetic energy, they
>may join into a neutron. The neutron has more mass than the original three
>particles. If the neutron is within an atom, it may stay put.
>
>A more dramatic example is the stream of particles that come from a nuclear
>explosion. Much of the original mass turns into energy. Afterwards some of
>the energy turns into mass, many of them particles that did not exist within
>the original nuclear fuel.
>Mellendorf
=========================================================
>No, once matter is converted to energy, it is used. Energy is converted
>into mechanical or electrical energy or just lost to the atmosphere as heat
>energy. This is why there are people trying to figure out new forms of
>energy -- because fossil fuels and the like will eventually run out.
>Katie Page

Have Fun,
Jeff
 

MargueriteMing

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http://www.amazon.com/dp/0387988971/?tag=absolutewritedm-20

Absolutely the BEST book I've read to date for someone who is looking to understand the concepts, without all the intense math. It traces the growth of knowledge of particle physics from the late 1800s. It explains the history and development of the Standard Model, the current theory of the structure of matter, in a way that is accessible to anyone who has a bit of science background, without bogging down in lots of math.
 

MargueriteMing

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I'm not sure what you mean here. E=mc2 is a linear equation. The c is a constant, so double the m and you double the E.




I've heard some people propose that in the future we will be able to aim hundreds of high energy lasers at the same point in space, and the energy density will be so high that matter and anti-matter will be produced. In that way we could produce anti-matter fuel.

I can't find any references for that, unfortunately.

Anti-matter is created routinely in supercolliders.
 

benbradley

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I'm not sure what you mean here. E=mc2 is a linear equation. The c is a constant, so double the m and you double the E.
Yes, it is a linear RATIO, but the earlier poster's point is that the C constant is big, and it's actually C squared, so it takes a huge amount of energy to make a little bit of matter, and conversely when you convert a little bit of matter to energy you get a huge amount of energy.

I've heard some people propose that in the future we will be able to aim hundreds of high energy lasers at the same point in space, and the energy density will be so high that matter and anti-matter will be produced. In that way we could produce anti-matter fuel.

I can't find any references for that, unfortunately.

And apparently the energy available in the antimatter will be no more than then energy used by the lasers to generate it, much like electrolysis to get pure hydrogen from water, you're just converting "energy" from one form to another. But of course, antimatter is much denser than anything else as far as the amount of energy it generates when combining with ordinary matter (pro-matter?). Just drop a fraction of an ounce onto any major city...
 

lpetrich

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I'd like to know what "small axe" is counting as energy and matter.

But from what I'm guessing that he's thinking of, particle accelerators and cosmic rays do it all the time. Particle accelerators or "atom smashers" give elementary particles a lot of kinetic energy, and when they collide, the result is often a big shower of particles, whose mass-energy and kinetic energy all came from the original particles' kinetic energy.
 

Doug Johnson

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The amount of mass created is e/c squared.

c squared is a huge number. When you divide a huge amount of energy by c squared, you get a tiny bit of mass.


If you double the amount of energy, you double the amount of mass, but it's still a small amount of mass.

Final point. Writers shouldn't talk about math.
 

Ruv Draba

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A lot of posts in this thread are old, but it might be worth clearing up some confusion... This stuff is from my old University physics and chemistry days...

Scientists normally distinguish chemical change from physical change, and neither of these is what we need to create matter from energy, but they're a good starting point, so here they are:

Chemical change: a change that produces a new substance. Burning wood changes molecules of wood into molecules of smoke. Eating food changes molecules of food into molecules of people. You can tell when a substance is new because it acts differently in contact with other substances. Photosynthesis is an example of chemical change.

Chemical changes often either consume energy (e.g. baking bread) or produce energy (e.g. burning wood), but the energy that goes into these changes is normally locked in the molecule. One principal of chemical changes is that the total amount of mass doesn't change. If you burn a tonne of wood you will produce a tonne of wood-smoke, ash and steam. If you eat a half-pound meal then you'll gain weight by half a pound (less whatever what you excrete)

Physical change:a change that alters the physical properties of a substance, but keeps the chemical properties. Cutting a log into sawdust doesn't stop the sawdust from acting like wood (it'll still burn, for instance, and termites will still eat it). Freezing or boiling water doesn't make it poisonous to us. Physical changes often either consume energy (e.g. boiling water), or release energy (e.g. a hot oven cooling). The total mass of substances undergoing physical change doesn't alter either. Freeze 1kg of water and you get 1kg of ice (except for some air bubbles that escape while you're freezing it, but these add up to the total).

Point is: neither physical nor chemical changes are an example of energy converting into matter - because the total mass of the substances doesn't change.

For our purposes, energy only converts into matter with great difficulty, and only in tiny quantities. The most common way this occurs on Earth is via a particle accelerator, where small particles of matter are smashed together at high speed (the energy is in the speed), to produce more particles of matter that actually weigh more than the original particles. If you can imagine a high-speed smash between two Minis that manages to produce an SUV and two bicycles, that's pretty much what scientists are trying to do with particle accelerators.

Unfortunately, these collisions don't produce even a single atom -- just fragments of atoms. And you can't really 'aim' one single particle at another - you have to fling a lot together and hope that a few of them crash together in the right way. Then you find a clever way to whisk away the original, light particles, and see if there are any heavy ones left.

What does this mean for the universe?

Well, it's all speculative, but here's a popular view:

Whatever created all the matter in our Universe, it was an extraordinary event, and it seemed to happen all at once. A lot of matter was created and flung outward with a lot of excess energy. This matter collided and made more matter, and eventually made atoms which were heavy enough to combine into molecules, which got big enough to attract one another through gravity. This matter is still flying apart. Last time I read anything on this, the idea was that it would keep flying apart -- never to come back together and explode again.

If that happened, then eventually galaxies would move so far apart that we couldn't see them, and so the night sky would lose most of its stars. I'm not sure what would happen to our own galaxy - would it fly apart, or get pulled back in to smash together again? If the latter, it might create some more matter, but it's not the sort of thing you could see from earth, because our solar system would get mooshed to atomic paste too.

So, no Instaburgers?

Back to Science Fiction and Instant Mass, the energy-mass equation (E = mc[SUP]2[/SUP]) is not your friend if you want to turn electricity into a hamburger, say - even if you had machinery clever enough to do it. Converting a single sugar cube into pure energy could light a small city for a whole year, so to get the sugar cube back, you'd have to drain that city's lighting for a year. And nanotechnology won't help you get a sugar-cube rather than atomic paste, since nanotech is made of big molecules, and we're talking about assembling splinters of a single atom.

If you want instant food, you're much better off assembling it from existing molecules - via chemical change. That's essentially what nanotech is meant to do - just the same thing we do in a kitchen or a chemistry lab, only on a smaller scale and with more efficiency.

Hope this helps. :D
 
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benbradley

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Final point. Writers shouldn't talk about math.
Then only non-writers should talk/write about math? Maybe that explains some of the math books I've read...
A lot of posts in this thread are old, but it might be worth clearing up some confusion... This stuff is from my old University physics and chemistry days...

Scientists normally distinguish chemical change from physical change, and neither of these is what we need to create matter from energy, but they're a good starting point, so here they are:
If by "creating matter" you mean making atoms or even subatomic particles, yeah, that's not gonna happen with physical or chemical changes. And as discussed, that usually doesn't even happen with most nuclear changes. But any change that increases or decreases the amount of energy in the system DOES change the mass (by, of course, a very, very small amount).
Chemical change: a change that produces a new substance. Burning wood changes molecules of wood into molecules of smoke. Eating food changes molecules of food into molecules of people. You can tell when a substance is new because it acts differently in contact with other substances. Photosynthesis is an example of chemical change.

Chemical changes often either consume energy (e.g. baking bread) or produce energy (e.g. burning wood), but the energy that goes into these changes is normally locked in the molecule. One principal of chemical changes is that the total amount of mass doesn't change.
For (almost?) all practical purposes and to the limits of most (all?) mass measurements we know how to do that's true, but theoretically the mass DOES change (by of course a very slight amount), even though the total number of atoms and subatomic particles does not change. Re-read my other contributions to the thread, or research Mass Defect. It's not just for nuclear reactions anymore.;)
 

Ruv Draba

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If by "creating matter" you mean making atoms or even subatomic particles, yeah, that's not gonna happen with physical or chemical changes. And as discussed, that usually doesn't even happen with most nuclear changes. But any change that increases or decreases the amount of energy in the system DOES change the mass (by, of course, a very, very small amount).
Well, that's interesting and thank you for it, but it's kinda infinitesimally pernickety too.

When I posted I was already aware of the ministichiscule (technical term!) mass effects of capturing photons, say... and the Mass Deficit effect you mention (yes, I did look it up!) is smaller than that still for molecular bonds... So it might be pushing the point too far into theory-land to worry about systemic 'mass deficits' from cutting your steak before you eat it (I certainly won't be wolfing mine whole to avoid steak-loss!). I think you'd get more mass loss from losing infrared photons as your steak cools -- and that's immeasurable compared to the mass loss from the steam, say. (Eat your steak frozen with your head in a plastic bag if you want to maximise the experience!). :D And let's not talk about the relativistic mass effects of throwing the steak down your throat at near light-speed (feels like more steak, but adds no calories - and you have to eat it blue!)

Think I'll stick with 'Conservation of mass' for most purposes. It's easy to explain and understand and durnit we know that when you add 200mls of milk to 0.5kg of flour, you get 0.7kg of cake batter, and zapping it with electricity won't give you 0.75kg! :D:D:D

(Oh, and since when did Catslave and me become the same person? One of us should be offended at least!! :D :D)
 
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PiggyGirl

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I thought the whole idea behind the "Big Bang" was energy turning into matter.
 

kullervo

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Wow, there's a bunch of wrong in this thread.

1. Energy is converted into matter inside particle accelerators. But do to the conservation laws of particle physics, matter/anti-matter pairs are created and destroyed in tiny fractions of a second.

2. Supernovae and fusion do not create new matter. They simply combine simpler atoms into more complex atoms.

3. Photosynthesis does not create new matter. It lends energy to the process by which plants create sugars.

4. Nothing can be said of anything "before" the Big Bang. Energy, matter, spacetime, and all physical laws came into being at that moment. As time started at the Big Bang, there was no such thing as "before."
 

benbradley

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I just saw an "article" that reminded me of this old thread...glancing through it again, now I recall that it was a bit cantankerous...
Wow, there's a bunch of wrong in this thread.
Whoa, that appears a bit accusing and unneccesary. If you feel that way It might be better if you responded to each statement you see as wrong with a correction (yeah, perhaps a lot of work), that way we ignorant people can at least learn from you. But anyway...
1. Energy is converted into matter inside particle accelerators. But do to the conservation laws of particle physics, matter/anti-matter pairs are created and destroyed in tiny fractions of a second.
This is exactly what brought this thread to mind - this "article" says energy is converted to matter and antimatter in equal amounts, just as presumed to have happened in the Big Bang, but mysteriously since then, the parts of the Universe we can test are virtually 100 percent matter with no antimatter.

So with that, here's the article:
http://www.newscientist.com/blog/shortsharpscience/2008/07/rappin-physics.html
Here's another version on a page with more commentary, but this one has the volume going up and down:
http://www.boingboing.net/2008/07/31/large-hadron-rap-bes.html
 

Lhun

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Wow, there's a bunch of wrong in this thread.

1. Energy is converted into matter inside particle accelerators. But do to the conservation laws of particle physics, matter/anti-matter pairs are created and destroyed in tiny fractions of a second.
You're thinking vacuum fluctuations here. Particle pairs that are created via collision (in contrast to those just popping into existence) can persist longer.
2. Supernovae and fusion do not create new matter. They simply combine simpler atoms into more complex atoms.
Elements created by fusion have a (ever so slightly) different mass than the two elements fused. So, strictly speaking supernova fusions do create matter.
 

Prozyan

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4. Nothing can be said of anything "before" the Big Bang. Energy, matter, spacetime, and all physical laws came into being at that moment. As time started at the Big Bang, there was no such thing as "before."

This isn't exactly accurate, either.

First, it is important to keep in mind that when astronomers think about the Big Bang, in general, they are not thinking about the actual event itself. Rather, they are thinking about the model used to describe what happened afterward. It is important to keep that in mind, as current math cannot calculate to t=0. To try, you get things like zero volume and infinite density of matter and energy. It’s not that this moment didn’t exist physically, or that something impossible happened, it’s just that the math we currently use can’t describe it. Indeed, the closer you get to t=0, the more the math breaks down.

What happened beginning a nanosecond after the event can be modelled fairly accurately. But the event itself, and even before the event? The way our math works, it doesn't make sense. The basic problem is the non-unification between Einstein's relativity, which gives us a good idea how certain things work (like large-scale gravity) and quantum mechanics, which gives us a good idea how other things work (like particles) but no one has been able to combine the two. And, without that combination, it is impossible to model the occurance of the Big Bang or anything before that point. However, that is changing and we are starting to see plausible theories of what there was prior to the Big Bang.

I'd encourage you to look into Loop Quantum Gravity, and into the research being done by Martin Bojowald: http://www.science.psu.edu/alert/Bojowald6-2007.htm

Brane Cosmology also provides several other theories about what existed prior to the Big Bang.

To simply state that nothing existed before the Big Bang and therefore any study of what was before the Big Bang is pointless as you did is completely incorrect.