Are you living the dream?

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ash.y

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A dream, but not that particular one.

This question reminds me of this song. (ALO's Barbeque)

"And in this life we're free to dream whatever we want to
But that doesn't mean that your dreams are gonna come true
Instead as a way of getting us to move
Life dangles your dreams in front of you
And unable to resist the temptation, we continue"
 

Lhowling

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"And in this life we're free to dream whatever we want to
But that doesn't mean that your dreams are gonna come true
Instead as a way of getting us to move
Life dangles your dreams in front of you
And unable to resist the temptation, we continue"

I dig that.
 

TheAmir

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I don't buy that many writers can only write for a couple of hours before their brains turn to mush. If so, they couldn't handle most day jobs, either. Even if so, write more and you grow the right muscles to get over it.

But how many hours per day does it take to write full-time? I have written all day, every day for extended periods, but for the most part, I write five hours per day, five days per week. I know a triple handful of full-time pro writers who never write more than four hours per day. If you're actually writing, you can get a lot of words down in four hours. I know one full-time writer who treats writing like a nine to five job for six months, and then takes six months off.

But there are a ton of writers who do write eight hours or more each day because they want to do so. This includes some very rich writers who don't have to write anything. Dean Koontz probably leads the pack. he typically puts in seventy hour weeks, even though he doesn't have to write at all.

They love writing. If you don't love the process, why would you want to write at all? If you do love it, your brain is incredibly unlikely to turn to mush after a couple of hours. Writings is no more draining than any other profession where thought is a major part of the process, and I've met and read about a library full of people who work eighteen hours per day at intellectual jobs because they love the work.

I think you have the same misconceptions far too many who haven't written for a living hold. Writers who write full time still let passion be their guide, they still write what they want to write, when they want to write it. When this includes very long hours, like Dean Koontz, it's usually because they'd rather spend their time writing than doing anything else.

Why is it so hard to understand that being a full-time writer changes nothing? I don't work in a factory where I have a quot to fill, I write so many words per day because a writer writes, and I love the process of writing.

But it's this paragraph that's telling.

I don't know about you guys, but when I fell in love with storytelling and writing in my formative years, I never once thought, "I can't wait to spend my days stressing about whether I've hit my designated word-count for the day, then dive into the daily self-promotion/marketing shuffle via social-media, and end the day by thinking long and hard about how I can push more books out faster so I can build a bigger fanbase that will generate more income.Do you really think being a full-time writer has anything whatsoever to do with what you've written here? If it does, that write is not very bright, and probably can't earn a living as a writer, anyway.

That's the view of someone who's never been there and done that. That's just NOT how it is. You're so far off base that a blind man could find the bag and get you out before you got back to it. Not one sentence of it is anywhere close to the truth of how it is to write full-time. It's so far off base that it's pretty darned close to being insulting.

Full-time writer do not love writing less than you do. Full-time writers do not spend their days stressing about hit8uing a word count. We try to hit a word count simply because if you don't, you aren't a writer, you;re just someone who talks about being a writer, and because we love to write, and we love to finsh one thing and start another because we love to write. Did I mention that we love to write. It's true. We love to write. Not talking about it, not acting like it, but actually sitting down and doing it.

We sure as hell don't end our days thinking long and hard about how we can push more books out faster so we can build a bigger fanbase that will generate more income. This is not only nonsense, it really is insulting. It's just plain BS.

We are doing what we love to do, and many of us are making very good money at it. You can keep your investments, your living modestly, and whatever you did for a living. I wouldn't enjoy any of it, and wouldn't live that way. As a writer, I've never had to.

Why is it so hard to understand that we're simply doing what we truly love to do, that we're enjoying our lives, our writing, and everything else more than you seem to be enjoying your own. We are not slaves to publishers, we do NOT spend time thinking for a second about cranking out books to build anything, we simply write what we want, when we want.

The only difference is that we actually do write, and we actually do sell what we write. I don't care why you fell in love with storytelling, the question is are you actually telling stories on a regular basis because you LOVE telling stories. This is what we do.

The writing life is simply nothing whatsoever like you seem to think it is, and full-time writers are nothing whatsoever like you seem to think they are.

If you don't or can't write for hours a day you're not a real writer spiel? Are you kidding me? I've read some famous and well received authors giving advice to LIMIT your writing time if that's what works for you. The whole "don't write beyond what you KNOW will happen next for certain" method. It works for some. For others? Sure, they can sit down all day and pound away at the keyboard without a problem.

But not everyone is you. Not every method -works- for every author. I'm both an aspiring author AND an artist. For me? I WILL burn myself out if I sit there for hours and hours on end trying to force a scene that just isn't coming because I need to re-think it or talk to my alpha reader about it. It's the SAME with a piece of artwork - you can sit there and scribble all day, but not every artist works well that way, nor should every artist TRY to. Burn out is real for some people.

Some of us have other things to do in life. I have a 2 year old that gets me up at 5 am and maybe lets me sleep 4 hours a night (right now, she's got a cold so I got even less sleep the past few days). I have housework, I have bills and errands, I am alone for much of the day taking care of my -very- high energy kiddo while my husband works. She gave up naps 4 months ago, so unlike many parents of young kids, I don't even have -that- time to do anything. I get 1-2 hours a day, if I'm lucky, to write. I enjoy that time immensely and always dedicate it to writing, but you know what? Yeah, my brain IS mush after that 1-2 hours because I've got my energy being pulled in many, many other directions.

I'm sorry if that doesn't fit into your definition of a "real" writer. But you know what? I'm writing. I've also done content writing, soul sucking as that was, for 4 years. I'm a real writer, despite your scorn for my ilk.

Rant over.

OP: To hit it big as an author is a looooooooong shot. There are thousands and thousands (and thousands...) of writers out there, some published, some self-published, some aspiring to be published. VERY FEW will hit the big time and be able to make a living off it. You really can't go into this with the -expectation- of being the next Stephen King or what have you. You can hope, in your little secret heart of hearts (nothing wrong with a bit of hope, after all), but you have to realize it's PROBABLY not going to happen that way.

I look at it this way - if I can write something that even a few people really enjoy, and happen to make a bit of money from it as a bonus - that's "the dream". You've impacted someone's life with what you've written. Can't ask for more than that, in my opinion.
 
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InspectorFarquar

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I read somewhere once, Writers write. I assumed it to mean: Writers write often. I decided that definition sufficient for me.

I also decided to leave it to others to decide how often, how long, and how well. And for how much.

It's a club after all. There has to be membership criteria.
 

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Hi Guys,

I hope you don't mind me asking, but are you a published novelist? And if so, are you being paid well enough to do nothing else but write? If so, how many books did you have to publish to obtain this wonderful lifestyle?

Have your published novels made you quite wealthy, or financially comfortable? Or do you still have to work another job despite being a published novelist?

Also, when a novelist is published for the first time, is it common that that person will soon be able to give up their day job? Do many published authors still have to work other jobs?


I think most of these questions have been answered, but I'd like to add that when all things are equal (good book, good writing, etc), the only thing that separates a full time published writer from a writer who is unpublished and still has to work a day job is luck.

Dumb luck.

A full time writer isn't necessarily more talented or harder working than a writer who still goes to a cube every morning. They just happened to land in front of the exact right people at the exact right time, and that's it. So, if you're discouraged by the business, you have every reason to be. You can work your entire life to be the best writer you can be. You can write great book after great book and never catch the eye of the right person, never get published, and never make a dime from your writing.

As sad as it is, this is one of the fundamental truths of the publishing industry.
 
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InspectorFarquar

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I think most of these questions have been answered, but I'd like to add that when all things are equal (good book, good writing, etc), the only thing that separates a full time published writer from a writer who is unpublished and still has to work a day job is luck.

Dumb luck.

A full time writer isn't necessarily more talented or harder working than a writer who still goes to a cube every morning. They just happened to land in front of the exact right people at the exact right time, and that's it. So, if you're discouraged by the business, you have every reason to be. You can work your entire life to be the best writer you can be. You can write great book after great book and never catch the eye of the right person, never get published, and never make a dime from your writing.

As sad as it is, this is one of the fundamental truths of the publishing industry.


I'm guessing the "lucky" writer doesn't believe any of this.
 

Jackx

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I'm guessing the "lucky" writer doesn't believe any of this.

They do if they're honest with themselves.

I think all writers who've had success realize on some level that they're incredibly lucky. They might not project it to others in public, but the thought is there during the quiet times.
 

Ken

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Write a great book or even a very good book and you'll have little difficultly getting it published and making money. Books of such sort are in high demand. They're rather rare. Mediocre books are another matter. With those luck may be needed to an extent. There's a glut of them.
 

Jackx

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Write a great book or even a very good book and you'll have little difficultly getting it published and making money.

You'd think that would be the case, but it's not. "Great" books are rejected all the time for all kinds of reasons not related to the quality of the book (look at John Kennedy Toole or Hugh Howey). Even if the stars align and the book lands on the perfect editors desk, and that editor falls in love with the novel, it still has to pass through several other departments including marketing and sales before it's picked up for publication. If those departments don't think they can sell the book, it won't be picked up.
 

Ken

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You'd think that would be the case, but it's not. "Great" books are rejected all the time for all kinds of reasons not related to the quality of the book (look at John Kennedy Toole or Hugh Howey). Even if the stars align and the book lands on the perfect editors desk, and that editor falls in love with the novel, it still has to pass through several other departments including marketing and sales before it's picked up for publication. If those departments don't think they can sell the book, it won't be picked up.

Thnx for sharing your opinion.
You've given me something to consider.
 

davidwestergaard

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It's trite, but true: "luck is the intersection of hard work and opportunity."

Anyone who hasn't made it yet isn't working hard enough. Some people are luckier than others; you can't control that. You can control how much of yourself you give to your dream. Make sure you are giving 100% before you complain about anything outside of your control.
 

Jackx

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Thnx for sharing your opinion.
You've given me something to consider.

Sure, although I'm starting to regret my original comment. Not because it's wrong (because it's not), but because I have an extremely cynical view of the publishing industry. I've been at this for a while now, and I've been (am) far luckier than most, but I've also seen many friends have their careers end before they ever got started because of how this business works.

Maybe all this talk about luck is just survivor's guilt.

Either way, this place has a lot of new authors who are aiming for big publishing. It doesn't help to have me point out things that they'll figure out on their own if they ever get lucky and reach their goal.
 
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Jackx

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Anyone who hasn't made it yet isn't working hard enough.

A lot of editors in big publishing houses assign assistants and interns to read backlogged manuscripts in order to weed out the books that aren't a good fit for the house. These people are usually kids, barely out of college, and a lot of them have kid priorities. I've personally witnessed assistants rejecting manuscripts they've barely skimmed or haven't even looked at in order to get out of work in time to meet their friends at Happy Hour. Nobody even bats an eye over this because why would they? These publishers get thousands of submissions every single week, the majority of which they reject anyway, so what does it matter?

Tor, one of last major publishers to take unsolicited submissions, used to hire (still might) a staff of unpaid undergrads every December to handle the flood of NaNoWriMo "books" that come in. They were called "Slush Killers" and their entire job was to go through the mountain of manuscripts and find any reason at all to reject them. Without a doubt, publishable books have been passed over time and again because of these practices, and it had absolutely nothing to do with how hard they worked.

I get what you're saying, or at least I understand the wish behind what you are saying, but hard work will only take you so far in publishing.

All things being equal, what you really need is luck.
 
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dondomat

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The more good books you've written and sent out, the more the odds are in your favor that a) someone will notice one, and b) the publisher/agency will be looking for something like that, or will know a third party that does and alert them. Once one of many MS opens the door, the rest of the many will follow.

Writing one book and sending it to one publisher ain't gonna cut it, in the luck department.
 
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Jackx

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The more good books you've written and sent out, the more the odds are in your favor that a) someone will notice one, and b) the publisher/agency will be looking for something like that, or will know a third party that does and alert them. Once one of many MS opens the door, the rest of the many will follow.

Writing one book and sending it to one publisher ain't gonna cut it, in the luck department.

True, there are ways to increase your chances (including having a good agent), but at some point we're all reading tea leaves and rolling chicken bones and hoping for the best.
 

Jackx

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Or an agent.

Since all things aren't actually equal.

I was actually referring to the quality and marketability of the book. But yeah, a good agent helps.

When my first novel was picked up, I became friends with another writer who had his first book accepted the same time I did. He had a very high profile NY agent while I had a wonderfully nice agent at a much smaller agency. Same kind of books, same genre, both published in hardcover three months apart. He's no longer publishing because he never found his audience, but I ran into him a few months ago and we sat around reminiscing about that time in our lives when it was all bright and shiny and new. Turns out that the advance his agent negotiated for his book was literally 10X what they paid me for mine.

I've since signed with his agent.
 
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InspectorFarquar

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Interesting anecdote. But we're supposed to extrapolate some profundity from it?
 

Jackx

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Interesting anecdote. But we're supposed to extrapolate some profundity from it?

Do you speak for everyone here, or are there several people gathered around your computer?

Maybe I'm not following your question. Are you looking for some profound meaning in this forum, or just in my posts? Judging by what came before, I assumed everyone was just throwing out opinions and talking about their experience. I didn't think I was doing anything differently.

What exactly are you asking?
 

Putputt

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A lot of editors in big publishing houses assign assistants and interns to read backlogged manuscripts in order to weed out the books that aren't a good fit for the house. These people are usually kids, barely out of college, and a lot of them have kid priorities. I've personally witnessed assistants rejecting manuscripts they've barely skimmed or haven't even looked at in order to get out of work in time to meet their friends at Happy Hour. Nobody even bats an eye over this because why would they? These publishers get thousands of submissions every single week, the majority of which they reject anyway, so what does it matter?

Tor, one of last major publishers to take unsolicited submissions, used to hire (still might) a staff of unpaid undergrads every December to handle the flood of NaNoWriMo "books" that come in. They were called "Slush Killers" and their entire job was to go through the mountain of manuscripts and find any reason at all to reject them. Without a doubt, publishable books have been passed over time and again because of these practices, and it had absolutely nothing to do with how hard they worked.

Wow. That's pretty sobering to read. I've seen agents who say that they go through their query inboxes and "look for reasons to reject" so that they can cull the enormous amount of mail they get. I mean, it makes sense, given that the most popular agents get tens of thousands of queries every month.

But I've never heard of agents or assistants or interns culling willy-nilly just to make Happy Hour with their friends. Do they have like a quota to reach or something? Like, "You have to go through 500 queries by the end of the week, o lowly slush reader!" sort of thing?
 

thelittleprince

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I do sometimes dream about writing full time. But then I remember how many of my story ideas have grown out of things I see and experience at work, and I think...would not having a day job really be a good idea?

And I also remember how much I hate being pressured to write. I like to write when I want, not when I'm told, thank you very much. Which probably means I would be a terrible, and very poor, full-time writer!
 

cornflake

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Wow. That's pretty sobering to read. I've seen agents who say that they go through their query inboxes and "look for reasons to reject" so that they can cull the enormous amount of mail they get. I mean, it makes sense, given that the most popular agents get tens of thousands of queries every month.

But I've never heard of agents or assistants or interns culling willy-nilly just to make Happy Hour with their friends. Do they have like a quota to reach or something? Like, "You have to go through 500 queries by the end of the week, o lowly slush reader!" sort of thing?

I believe he's talking about actual slush, not queries.

The quality of actual slush is such that spending five minutes on any given submission is usually four minutes of generosity and some unstoppable wellspring of hope.
 
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Putputt

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I believe he's talking about actual slush, not queries.

The quality of actual slush is such that spending five minutes on any given submission is usually four minutes of generosity and some unstoppable wellspring of hope.

What are yew still doing here, cereal flake?

Although you do speaketh sense. If Slushpile Hell is anything to go by, many of the stuff agents get are a "skim through, yep, weird/inappropriate/noobish/some other terrible thing, therefore, reject" job.
 
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