I don't think the type of POV makes the slightest difference on whether stories are character-driven or plot-driven.
And ideally, all plots should be character-driven.
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Basic Writing questions is not a crit forum. All crits belong in Share Your Work
Why 1st person?
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I don't think the type of POV makes the slightest difference on whether stories are character-driven or plot-driven.
And ideally, all plots should be character-driven.
And it's not my job to dig through the archives for you and pull out specific threads and post them here for your convenience when you never even asked me.
Relax, there, Turbo.
If you make assertions, on the board or in your novels or in real life, you need to be ready to back them up. It's not an attack, it's how things work.
Being *asked for links* to some of those posts would be nice instead of going 'it's not my job!' I mean nobody said it was. If you're curious, look it up, if you don't feel like it, then ask me POLITELY. It makes me feel like you guys think I'm making it up or something. Why would I?
This was back in 1998-2002 so most of those places don't even exist anymore so I don't have links anyway. but I googled and found two on absolute write that mention the type of sentiment that I felt back then:
I've read a lot of experts, so-called, who speak of first person as though it's inferior to third person limited, which is, according to them, the most popular fictional perspective. Personally, I think it keeps the reader at a distance, whereas first person gives the novel a lyrical, story feel. We feel like we're encountering a person, not a catalog of events.
Picking through some of the other threads i notice that present tense isn't exactly everybody's favourite tense when reading a novel.
Why is this?
I tried looking for the threads on livejournal but it's literally impossible.
All of this feels terribly derailing to the OP's post to be honest so I apologize to the OP.
This was back in 1998-2002 so most of those places don't even exist anymore so I don't have links anyway. but I googled and found two on absolute write that mention the type of sentiment that I felt back then:
I've read a lot of experts, so-called, who speak of first person as though it's inferior to third person limited, which is, according to them, the most popular fictional perspective. Personally, I think it keeps the reader at a distance, whereas first person gives the novel a lyrical, story feel. We feel like we're encountering a person, not a catalog of events.
Picking through some of the other threads i notice that present tense isn't exactly everybody's favourite tense when reading a novel.
Why is this?
I tried looking for the threads on livejournal but it's literally impossible.
All of this feels terribly derailing to the OP's post to be honest so I apologize to the OP.
Right, but if you read the whole thread here, you'll see that the source for information is just as important, if not moreso, than the actual information. Random weirdos on the internet are all entitled to their weirdo opinions *cough* but, overall, you're not going to get great writing advice from fanfic communities.
Yes, I say that disparagingly.
I could say that human protags are overdone and dated, but that doesn't make me right, or a good source to back up another's claim.
Yes, I say that disparagingly.
I could say that human protags are overdone and dated, but that doesn't make me right, or a good source to back up another's claim.
Oh no I totally agree with everything you're saying, especially the bolded parts! That's why I said it was a 'sad story' that I ended up swallowing up all that twaddle like it was gospel and changed my own writing style. I mean I DO like writing in 3rd person now but I still want to go back to 1st person for a new project - which I'm not allowed to start until at least SOME of my WIPs are finished.)
It was more supposed to be a warning to people to not listen to what everyone says and just pick your own tense (even if it's 2nd person) and just do your best with it!
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Personally I feel first person is distancing; I don't feel like I'm in the MC's head or like I'm experiencing things along with them, I feel like they're telling me what happened to them after the fact. And I generally find first to be irritating these days, to be honest. All that "I did this, I did that." It's very hard to pull of a first-person voice that doesn't feel like all the others, at least for me; there just seems to be a sameness in them all, probably because--again--I feel like I'm not part of the action.
But I'm aware I'm in the minority here.
But I'm aware I'm in the minority here.
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That imo, is because of something I've always believed: First person is the easiest and most natural voice to write in, esp for beginning writers. But at the same time, it's maybe the most difficult to write really well.
Personally I feel first person is distancing; I don't feel like I'm in the MC's head or like I'm experiencing things along with them, I feel like they're telling me what happened to them after the fact. And I generally find first to be irritating these days, to be honest. All that "I did this, I did that." It's very hard to pull of a first-person voice that doesn't feel like all the others, at least for me; there just seems to be a sameness in them all, probably because--again--I feel like I'm not part of the action.
But I'm aware I'm in the minority here.
Good first person has very, very little "I did this" or "I did that", and all past tense fiction, whatever the POV, is telling you what happened in the past.
The point of first person is to be the character, not have him tell you anything.
If all first person voices sound the same to you, then you read very little first person. They're as different as Huckleberry Finn is from Spenser. There's far more variety in first person voice than in third person limited.
The reason I primarily write in first person is because most of the novels I've read are written in first person so, in a way, it is easier for me, but it is hard to do it well.
I wrote my first novel when I was in elementary school. Yeah, it was crap, but I did win first place in the school wide writing competition, and I was in the third grade at the time.
When first starting out, all of my voices were the same, but then again I was a kid and didn't think it mattered.
I will say that with first person it seems more intimate. I mean, you're inside the character's head and you're experiencing everything they're experiencing.
I also agree with Jamesaritchie in that there are way more variety in first person voice than in third person limited, but this is just my opinion
I wrote my first novel when I was in elementary school. Yeah, it was crap, but I did win first place in the school wide writing competition, and I was in the third grade at the time.
When first starting out, all of my voices were the same, but then again I was a kid and didn't think it mattered.
I will say that with first person it seems more intimate. I mean, you're inside the character's head and you're experiencing everything they're experiencing.
I also agree with Jamesaritchie in that there are way more variety in first person voice than in third person limited, but this is just my opinion
^This made me LOL
I think POV is entirely opinion and that any story can be told in any POV and told well as long as the author is comfortable writing in that POV.
I'm not a pro. I will never claim to be a pro. I am not good at grammar. I just happen to like to tell a story.
I am an avid reader. When I first started reading and all the way into my 20's, I refused to read 1st person POV novels because frankly, I hated them. I dont think there was anything wrong with the writing, I think that it just so happens I read a couple 1st person POV stories that I didnt care for and in my immaturity decided that 1st person POV was the reason they sucked.
I refused to write in that POV as well. POV is something that is very difficult for me because im a total head hopper. This makes it difficult for me to write in any POV frankly, but especially in 1st.
Then something wierd happened. I started writing in 1st person. I didn't choose the POV, the story i was writing chose it for me.
Oh one more little thing. I don't believe Stephanie Meyer's Twilight was in 1st person POV was it? 'The Host' might have been :/ can't recall. I don't have a copy handy to look at.
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At least for me, 1st person feels more personal.
I use it when I want to evoke an emotional response from my reader.
1st person is also traditionally used when you want to stick with only one person's point of view. With 3rd person, it's easier to switch characters and follow them in the story for a while. I don't think I've seen this done in 1st person.
I use it when I want to evoke an emotional response from my reader.
1st person is also traditionally used when you want to stick with only one person's point of view. With 3rd person, it's easier to switch characters and follow them in the story for a while. I don't think I've seen this done in 1st person.
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Interesting thread. I think it's very individual. For the way I write, first person simply will not work. I want the reader to know what's going on in places my MC will not experience first hand, plus in my current WIP I lurk for awhile inside the mind of a lion when he first catches the scent of 'man meat'. I come back to him throughout the story as he has a key role near the end. Couldn't do that in first person and I need him.
I agree. POV has always been a big nightmare for me. As I've gotten older and written more its become easier to understand but sometimes I like to 'lurk' around in the minds of some of the other characters in a story as well.
I agree with a number of the above that the difference between 1st and limited 3rd is really quite subtle, particularly where the limited 3rd is clearly in the voice of the character. However I do think there is a difference. I wrote a YA novel with chapters from the PoV of four characters, loosely rotating. Two were human teenagers and two telepathic dogs from a parallel world and without consciously thinking about it I made the humans 1st person and the dogs 3rd. The dogs narration is clearly in their 'voice' but the 3rd person gives that little more distance because the reader will never understand them as fully as they will the humans.
Maybe I'm excessively literal-minded but it irritates me beyond belief when a 1st person narrator dies. "So who's writing this?" I can't help yelling at the book. Just shows how much I relate to the narrator I suppose.
No-one is necessarily writing this - first person (especially first present) can just as easily be interior monologue.
Jenny Downham's Before I Die is in first present, from the POV of a teenage girl with terminal leukaemia. The title gives away what happens at the end. (I don't think that's a spoiler.)
I write first person because I see my stories from first person (e.g. imagine I'm a character and look at it like that). May come from playing too many first-person shooters as a kid.
I read first person and third person but third always throws me out of immersion. I prefer first because it reads as someone's thoughts and not a narration.
I read first person and third person but third always throws me out of immersion. I prefer first because it reads as someone's thoughts and not a narration.
When I'm exploring ideas for stories or trying to further a plot I generally write in 1st POV as I find it much easier to write that way. Writing 1st POV helps me to see what is going on, tell the story through the characters different senses. When doing rewrites or edits I change it to 3rd.
I notice too that there seems to be a great trend towards 1st POV these days. I wonder if self-publishing has anything to do with it, where people write the story the way they want rather than the way they think a publisher or agent might want it.
I notice too that there seems to be a great trend towards 1st POV these days. I wonder if self-publishing has anything to do with it, where people write the story the way they want rather than the way they think a publisher or agent might want it.
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You mean people aren't doing that now?
Am i doing this all wrong, then?
All asked with tongue-in-cheek, mind you....
I think we're splitting hairs between good writing and bad writing, and not between the chosen POV. 1st and 3rd are really very similar from the reader's standpoint - the stories either work as a narrative, or they don't. If I feel distanced from a 1st person narrative, it's because the writing kept me distanced. Same with 3rd, or omniscient, or any other POV. Engagement in a story - assuming it's the sort of story the individual reader wants to read - is a matter of the author's writing skill, and not the chosen POV. While, as readers, we all have our personal preferences, I wouldn't approach any book with the idea of Oh, no, not another first/third/omniscient narrative... I try reading it. If it doesn't engage, I blame the writer, not the POV... This is true for the tense-choice debates as well. Ultimately, it always comes back to whether the choice works in that particular story, and to know, the story has to be read.
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