Is this for real? The ugly face of homophobia.

Alpha Echo · Dec 5, 2014

Lyv said:
It really is all over. For just one example, a church in Harlem makes the news every so often for their anti-gay signs, including at least one calling for gays to be killed.

Ugh! This pisses me off so badly. How in the world is calling for ANYone to be killed living a Christ-like life? They give "real" Christians, those who simply believe that we should all strive to love as Jesus did (whether he was a man or God's son) a bad name.

Myrealana said:
I offer this in contrast:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/rogerwolsey/2011/12/why-im-a-gay-friendly-pastor-world-aids-day/

Now THAT is uplifting and amazing. Thank you for sharing that.

Zoombie said:
The "agenda" described by those bigots is almost always about how gay people want to corrupt the youth of America, or "convert" their children...which is a big part of why homophobia to be the right term.

It is not just that the hypothetical person is scared that they are gay. It is that they are terrified of their children being gay - and that terror turns to anger. I mean, it was only very recently that the use of "gay panic" defenses were made illegal.

In one state.

(though, thankfully, it often fails elsewhere)

Here's the flash: The gay "lifestyle" is pretty much like the straight "lifestyle" in that there IS no set lifestyle.

Exactly.

Whenever anyone says someone has an "agenda," it has a negative connotation and usually means that said person selfishly strives to preserve his or her own twisted beliefs through any means possible.

And "lifestyle" means simply how people live - I prefer the suburbs, you prefer the city. I want kids, you don't. I drive a truck, you want a sports car. I like musicals, you prefer movies.

THAT is lifestyle.

There is no "gay lifestyle" or "straight lifestyle" because we all live and have the same choices to make in life. The way I live being straight it no different than my Aunt and her partner! (Except they live on 60 acres in the middle of nowhere, and we'd rather be here in the suburbs.)

virtue_summer · Dec 5, 2014

I have a question. I've never understood why it matters, in terms of oppression towards gay people, whether being gay is a choice or not. Homophobic attitudes wouldn't make any more sense to me if being gay were proven to be a choice. Certainly decisions about who to actually date have a choice element to them, whether one is heterosexual or homosexual or bisexual or whatever. But so what? Does that make it okay to attack someone because they're dating someone you're not attracted to? I don't think so. I know lots of people in relationships where I wouldn't want their partners for myself, but I don't flip a gasket over it. Gay or straight, choice or not, why should anyone have the right to dictate someone else's love life? And how would it still be anything but irrational to essentially say, "Well, you're dating someone I'd never date, so I hate you and think you're less of a human being"?

Zoombie · Dec 5, 2014

Yeah, really, the difference between "born this way" and "gay is a choice" is really whether you're Hitler or Stalin.

...cause...Hitler killed people because they were born a certain way, and Stalin killed people because they disagreed with him. Either way, evil.

rugcat · Dec 5, 2014

Amadan said:
Sure, but you can't then avoid the implications.

Calling homosexuality a lifestyle and talking about the "gay agenda" has very specific connotations, at least in the U.S. If you intended them, then of course you're going to get resistance. If you didn't intend them, then you'll have to decide whether continuing to use those terms and arguing about what you actually meant by them is an effective communications strategy.

Language, by usage, often develops very clear cut connotations.

"The homosexual lifestyle" or "the gay agenda" are commonly used by anti-gay speakers, sometimes rabidly so. They are coded phrases that carry a very deliberate and distinctly pejorative connotation.

But when called out about this language it is also common for some to rush to the dictionary in an attempt to prove that "lifestyle " or "agenda" are neutral terms with no connotations whatsoever, and only the supersensitive could ever conceive that they have any other meaning.

Like concentrating on the technical psychiatric definition of phobia, and then pretending that the common cultural meaning of homophobia is somehow therefore invalid and means nothing.

Not to mention actually citing a definition thusly:

1. Fear of or contempt for lesbians and gay men.
2. Behavior based on such a feeling.

And then concentrating on the word "fear" while completely ignoring that this very definition includes the word "contempt" when describing homophobia.

Every poster is entitled to their opinions. And those opinions, when expressed at length, give a very good picture of the mindset and beliefs of the poster. Despite the semantic wiggling, I believe this poster has made it abundantly clear exactly what his beliefs are and what kind of person he is.

Unimportant · Dec 5, 2014

Andreas_Montoya said:
The free dictionary defines a phobia as..

1. A persistent, abnormal, and irrational fear of a specific thing or situation that compels one to avoid it, despite the awareness and reassurance that it is not dangerous.
2. A strong fear, dislike, or aversion.

Andreas_Montoya said:
1. Fear of or contempt for lesbians and gay men.
2. Behavior based on such a feeling.

Again, when did the dislike of something become fear?

OR. OR. OR.

Fear OR dislike OR aversion.
Fear OR contempt.

You're a writer. You know what 'or' means.

heza · Dec 5, 2014

Andreas Montoya said:
I'm not afraid of liver, I simply don't like it, fear has nothing to do with it.

This is not a parallel... not even the way you're talking about it.

You don't like liver. Okay. You are not afraid of liver. That's fine; no one here would assume you have an actual pathological fear of liver. I mean, the problem is that you don't like the way liver tastes or the texture of it or that it's organ meat. Whatever. Basically, you don't choose it for yourself to eat and you don't want anyone else to make you eat it, right? Not fear; just a preference. And you don't care if other people eat it, right? That's their choice. You don't get upset if someone at the next table orders liver, right? You don't say that someone else who is eating liver is throwing that lifestyle in your face, do you? You don't try to promote and maintain laws and policies that would prevent people who prefer liver from being able to legally purchase or cook or serve liver... right? Of course you don't.

Because if you really hated liver that much, to the point that you considered how other people cooked with liver to be an entire "lifestyle" and described eating liver, when enjoyed the exact same way you might enjoy steak or grilled chicken, as "throwing it in your face," well... then, we might start to think you actually had a liver phobia.

So maybe... just maybe the people who don't choose a gay "lifestyle" for themselves but still go so far as to be offended by it whenever they see evidence of it really are just a little bit irrationally afraid of it.

Unimportant · Dec 5, 2014

rugcat said:
Every poster is entitled to their opinions. And those opinions, when expressed at length, give a very good picture of the mindset and beliefs of the poster. Despite the semantic wiggling, I believe this poster has made it abundantly clear exactly what his beliefs are and what kind of person he is.

Yes. Very well said.

regdog · Dec 5, 2014

“Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.” Yoda

And I agree with Devil too. It's not a phobia, it's antagonism.

Lyv · Dec 5, 2014

Andreas_Montoya;9199962 Was the link anti gay?[/quote said:
Yepper.

Perhaps that's because you don't put your lifestyle in other people's face.

Click to expand...

Yes, I do.

Since it seems you've boiled "lifestyle" down to sexual orientation, I spend a lot of time putting my lifestyle in other people's faces. I kissed my husband in the driveway this morning. I mentioned him to the shopkeeper at the wine store. I have photos of us all over my Facebook page. You could even say I *flaunt* my heterosexual lifestyle all the time.

Haggis · Dec 5, 2014

rugcat said:
Language, by usage, often develops very clear cut connotations.

"The homosexual lifestyle" or "the gay agenda" are commonly used by anti-gay speakers, sometimes rabidly so. They are coded phrases that carry a very deliberate and distinctly pejorative connotation.

But when called out about this language it is also common for some to rush to the dictionary in an attempt to prove that "lifestyle " or "agenda" are neutral terms with no connotations whatsoever, and only the supersensitive could ever conceive that they have any other meaning.

Like concentrating on the technical psychiatric definition of phobia, and then pretending that the common cultural meaning of homophobia is somehow therefore invalid and means nothing.

Not to mention actually citing a definition thusly:

And then concentrating on the word "fear" while completely ignoring that this very definition includes the word "contempt" when describing homophobia.

Every poster is entitled to their opinions. And those opinions, when expressed at length, give a very good picture of the mindset and beliefs of the poster. Despite the semantic wiggling, I believe this poster has made it abundantly clear exactly what his beliefs are and what kind of person he is.

Absolutely.

I

have beliefs, tenets, core values, principles, a moral compass, code of behavior, ethics.

You

have an agenda.

Devil Ledbetter · Dec 5, 2014

Andreas_Montoya said:
A person can choose to distance themselves from certain behavior for any number of reasons. This does not mean they fear it.

I'm not afraid of liver, I simply don't like it, fear has nothing to do with it.

Homosexuality isn't "a behavior." It's a sexual orientation.

The fact that you simply don't like liver doesn't mean liver "has an agenda." The fact that you're aware liver exists, and may see it on a menu or behind the butcher counter, or someone may mention within earshot that they enjoy liver, doesn't mean liver is "in your face."

Billtrumpet25 · Dec 5, 2014

Andreas_Montoya said:
I don't twist other people's words. It seems there is plenty of that here to go around.

cmhbob · Dec 5, 2014

Actually, I think it's safe to say that the LGBTQ community does indeed have a very serious agenda, and it's one I support.

They want the same rights as any other person. They want to live their lives in peace and safety, free from the threat of violence just because some see them as "different." That agenda is not a bad thing.

MarkEsq · Dec 5, 2014

cmhbob said:
Actually, I think it's safe to say that the LGBTQ community does indeed have a very serious agenda, and it's one I support.

They want the same rights as any other person. They want to live their lives in peace and safety, free from the threat of violence just because some see them as "different." That agenda is not a bad thing.

Dude, we're talking about liver here, stop derailing.

Tazlima · Dec 5, 2014

MarkEsq said:
Dude, we're talking about liver here, stop derailing.

Silly liver, wanting equal treatment with superior meats. Internal organs need to know their place! I mean, they're internal! They should be hiding away in a body cavity, not flaunting their existence alongside the muscles and skin like they're somehow just as important.

....wait.

cmhbob · Dec 5, 2014

MarkEsq said:
Dude, we're talking about liver here, stop derailing.

Oh. Sorry. I'll never ever do it again.

And gizzards are clearly better than livers.

mccardey · Dec 5, 2014

If we could merge this thread with the ostentatious breastfeeding thread, we'd have - well - quite a thread.

ETA: But we'd prolly run out of popcorn.

shakeysix · Dec 5, 2014

I once had ostentatious breasts --s6

Cyia · Dec 5, 2014

I hate liver. Can we pick another organ? How do you feel about the spleen? No one ever shows love to the spleen, though in fairness, it would be rather messy to flaunt your spleen in someone's face. It would probably even require hospitalization.

Amadan · Dec 5, 2014

Cyia said:
I hate liver. Can we pick another organ? How do you feel about the spleen? No one ever shows love to the spleen, though in fairness, it would be rather messy to flaunt your spleen in someone's face. It would probably even require hospitalization.

Liverphobe!

CassandraW · Dec 5, 2014

Amadan said:
Liverphobe!

I don't think it's fair to imply Cyia is afraid of liver. She merely dislikes it. However, her preference for spleen is likely learned, rather than genetic.

Cyia · Dec 5, 2014

You are totally misconstruing my preference of one bodily organ over another. I totally have a liver, so how can I possibly be afraid of them.

#logicfail #SoThere #sticksTongueOut

Spleen-haters.

CassandraW · Dec 5, 2014

Pffft. Many liverphobes secretly have livers.

RichardGarfinkle · Dec 5, 2014

CassandraW said:
Pffft. Many liverphobes secretly have livers.

This statement is quite unnerving next to your current avatar.

Devil Ledbetter · Dec 5, 2014

mccardey said:
If we could merge this thread with the ostentatious breastfeeding thread, we'd have - well - quite a thread.

ETA: But we'd prolly run out of popcorn.

If we could just throw in circumcision now we'd have a trifecta topics irresistible to trolls/prudes/people who don't find MYOB an option.

Is this for real? The ugly face of homophobia.

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