Moved OT posts - Teachers Unions

There are good and bad things about all unions. They protect the teachers and fight for decent salaries (which the schools would gladly cut to less than the pittance they make now) and other benefits teachers wouldn't be able to get otherwise.

The bad things are that you have to take the good employees with the bad. My husband is a Teamster at his job, and we have the same issues. There are several employees that SHOULD be fired, and WOULD be fired at any other job, but because of the union, it's nearly impossible. On the other hand, when the contract comes up for negotiation, the union helps keep Husband's raises and benefits in line so we can continue to live (on the pittance they pay him).

If you delete the unions, you open up a whole other can of worms. What we really need to do is cut the salaries of the administration and funnel some of that money back into the schools. The pay some superintendents get around here is obscene.

There's no union for office jobs, and most of us seem to do okay with the threat of arbitrary firings, low raises and shrinking benefits...

Are you being forced to stay after hours and do 'volunteer' work? Many teachers would be without contracts negotiated by unions, under the guise of 'giving back'. They give plenty of hours already, both in class and at home, yet many districts require a certain number of 'extra-curricular' activities.

Teachers have rights. You work 9-5 and when the day is done you go home. Teachers take their work home with them often, and there would be abuses without some sort of boundry.

I agree that they wind up protecting idiots, but they also protect good teachers. Without unions to negotiate salaries, MORE good teachers would wind up leaving for more lucrative jobs. It's a huge problem in education that many districts cannot keep the good teachers they have, let alone attract new ones. I do favor Obama's educational plan, which would encourage more teachers to stay in their jobs, but I can't say if that would affect the unions or not.

Christine N. said:

Teachers have rights. You work 9-5 and when the day is done you go home. Teachers take their work home with them often, and there would be abuses without some sort of boundry.

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I'm not sayin it's the same kind of work, and I respect teachers a whole lot - I give training to adults and it's exhausting. But "extra" work is not unusual for any company I have ever worked for.

I personally have sacrificed many weekends and nights to deadlines, emergencies, travel, special projects, training, late night calls with Asia, and trying to stand out. 9-5 is a thing of the past, and so is a lunch "hour." Not to mention those people who are on-call or tied to a Blackberry.

What is so different? And why do teachers need to be protected from what is an arm of the government? Don't voters have enough influence to sway bad policies and put proper funding in teachers hands? Are walkouts and strikes really in the best interest of educating kids on how to deal with problems?

I agree that they wind up protecting idiots, but they also protect good teachers. Without unions to negotiate salaries, MORE good teachers would wind up leaving for more lucrative jobs. It's a huge problem in education that many districts cannot keep the good teachers they have, let alone attract new ones.

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Good teachers don't need to be protected - they go where the money and respect are.....just like any employee with a shred of self-awareness. Bad teachers won't last long, and districts that can't retain any teachers wise up real fast.

Jimmyboy1 said:

Having inadvertently started this thread, I could say more than the thread would hold.
I should/will therefor start another.

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A new thread will get merged into this one anyway. Better to just make your comments here.

I personally have sacrificed many weekends and nights to deadlines, emergencies, travel, special projects, training, late night calls with Asia, and trying to stand out.

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Do you get comp time? Most places give comp time for things like weekend work (if it's THEIR work, not something you choose to do on the weekends), travel, etc. Teachers don't get comp time.

Good teachers don't need to be protected - they go where the money and respect are.....just like any employee with a shred of self-awareness. Bad teachers won't last long, and districts that can't retain any teachers wise up real fast.

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Wow. I think you really believe that. In the great educational food chain, teachers aren't at the top. Or even NEAR the top. You would think they would be, and they SHOULD be, but they aren't. You can't necessarily say that teachers will stay where they are respected, because I haven't seen too many districts where they are respected the way they should. They are caught between administrators, board members, parents and taxpayers. They have to fight for basic supplies while supers ride around in taxpayer-paid for vehicles. The parents treat them like it's the teacher's job to raise their kids. It's a thankless but rewarding job, and I think they deserve more than they get now. If unions went away, there's no way that would happen. They'd cut salaries. I think you have to be inside the system to understand that.

Right now the one district I work for has cut down on hiring full time aides in special ed classrooms. Only half-time. Doesn't matter how having two different aides will affect the students, only that the district doesn't have to pay benefits. But the aides aren't in the union, so they're able to be treated like crap.

In the end it's a government job, and all government jobs are covered by unions. Which makes it different than office jobs. Even government office workers are part of a union. Unions have their problems, but they also have their usefulness.

My aunt bitches about crap like this: Why should my husband have off the day after Thanksgiving and she doesn't? She's a nurse in the private sector. My husband's contract says he has off the day after Thanksgiving. If you don't, well, either negotiate for it or find another job.

Christine N. said:

Do you get comp time?

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Nope. But now I'm starting to think unionizing Cubicle Jockey Local 457 might be a good idea.

Even government office workers are part of a union.

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And government is known for it's effective and efficient workforce.

I agree with everything Christine said.

I would advise any teacher to join the union. The insurance for accidents that could happen in the classroom (I know someone who got a new student- no paperwork had been sent by the old district). For whatever reason, ten minutes later the new student was beating her with a desk. She was in the hospital for weeks.

It is easy to let teaching consume your entire life. It can become a calling as well as a career, which is fine when you allow it to do so. The problem arises when people expect it to be a calling.

And government is known for it's effective and efficient workforce.

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No, but at least the employees aren't subject to unlawful abuse.

Granted, many of the reasons unions were developed in the first place - to keep workplaces free of abuses and workers being paid reasonable wages for reasonable work - aren't as big an issue now as they used to be. But that's BECAUSE of unions. I think the union system needs serious revamping, but I like the idea of some kind of job protection. I mean, my husband now could just lose his job when the mayor gets a bug up his butt, if not for the union. He's a hard worker, and we're an at-will employment state. Without that union, he could be fired for no reason at all and we'd be royally screwed.

I mean, think about it, Matt - your boss could say "Work Christmas day or you're fired." If you were part of a union, and having off for Christmas is in your contract, he cannot make such a demand. No discussion, and no reprimand for your refusal. Any problems get referred to your union rep to deal with. Boss is in big trouble.

As it is now, YOU would have to decide whether or not working for such an ass is worth missing Christmas dinner. If you were a teacher and the principal said "we're coming in on New Year's day" or "We're staying here until midnight", you'd have no choice without a union.

My husband is expected to be at certain after-hours activities. He has to do tutorials every day for an hour after school. He also does work at home, not once or twice a week, but every day. He's an English teacher with over a hundred students - some of them ESL and some of them pre-AP. Some of them are "mainstreamed" meaning that they have issues that would normally prevent them from being in a standard classroom. He has to make special lesson plans for them and attend regular meetings on their progress. He grades LOTS of essays while at home, and in fact, just to keep up with all the grading at home, we have HIRED a guy to come in every Monday and grade the straight-forward stuff so that my husband can focus on writing samples. My husband still has zero free time during the week, and only one day on the weekends.

Teaching is not a 9-5 job. Many of these teachers are pushed to their limits as it is, WITH the unions in place. Between that and "Moral Terpitude" and being caught between the school board, the parents, and the students themselves, I think it's a damned good thing they have a union.