Why education standards are falling...

There's a shorter answer.

Coercive monopolies have zero incentive to provide decent customer service.

Don said:

There's a shorter answer.

Coercive monopolies have zero incentive to provide decent customer service.

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So. . . how are the charter schools doing?

Xelebes said:

So. . . how are the charter schools doing?

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Dunno, but I thought I'd take this opportunity to brag that my home-schooled 1st grader just tested at third grade levels in reading, language, and math. (3.5 in math.)

Chrissy said:

Dunno, but I thought I'd take this opportunity to brag that my home-schooled 1st grader just tested at third grade levels in reading, language, and math. (3.5 in math.)

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I went to public school and I managed that. The next year, I was caged up in cutely named "opportunity rooms" but that's what happens when you have a principal who doesn't have the -er- facilities to handle children with (neuro)psychological disorders.

Xelebes said:

I went to public school and I managed that. The next year, I was caged up in cutely named "opportunity rooms" but that's what happens when you have a principal who doesn't have the -er- facilities to handle children with (neuro)psychological disorders.

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My middle son tested high too at younger ages (he goes to public school), but slowly over time, has settled to average in most subjects. And worse, he hates school.

I'm trying to figure out what to do with my youngest to keep that from happening.

Chrissy said:

My middle son tested high too at younger ages (he goes to public school), but slowly over time, has settled to average in most subjects. And worse, he hates school.

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Does he like learning?

I just asked him. He said no.

*sigh*

Just put him to play videogames. They educated me more than grade, junior and high school.

I am not kidding.

Kaiser-Kun said:

Just put him to play videogames. They educated me more than grade, junior and high school.

I am not kidding.

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All 3 of my boys played video games before they learned how to walk.

But about Zach, he does what he's supposed to do--what he has to do--in school. Gets Bs. He's "playing the education game" like I suspect a lot of kids are. He has accepted school as a necessary evil.

I just spent 7 weeks reading and scoring persuasive essays from Pennsylvania. I strongly doubt machines are capable of making the determinations I had to when grading those things.

Chrissy said:

But about Zach, he does what he's supposed to do--what he has to do--in school. Get's Bs. He's "playing the education game" like I suspect a lot of kids are. He has accepted school as a necessary evil.

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I went to private school pretty much my entire education, and I still did the same thing up through 9th grade or so. I regarded myself as fairly average in intelligence most of that time, although I was comparing myself against people who weren't average.

For some reason, in high school, I suddenly found myself bored, and realized there were certain things I wanted to do, and if I tried a little bit, I could go quite far. I suddenly found myself surpassing all the people I'd always regarded as smarter than me, since I suddenly had motivation.

Now in grad school, I'm basically back where I started. My classroom grades are in the drain lately because I can't arse myself to care or try, but my research seems to be impressing lots of people. ...and at the same time I'm starting to regret not just going into liberal arts, financial security be damned.

kuwisdelu said:

I went to private school pretty much my entire education, and I still did the same thing up through 9th grade or so. I regarded myself as fairly average in intelligence most of that time, although I was comparing myself against people who weren't average.

For some reason, in high school, I suddenly found myself bored, and realized there were certain things I wanted to do, and if I tried a little bit, I could go quite far. I suddenly found myself surpassing all the people I'd always regarded as smarter than me, since I suddenly had motivation.

Now in grad school, I'm basically back where I started. My classroom grades are in the drain lately because I can't arse myself to care or try, but my research seems to be impressing lots of people. ...and at the same time I'm starting to regret not just going into liberal arts, financial security be damned.

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IMO, the best thing that can a happen to any human being on this planet is to discover what they truly want to do, and then have the means to do it. Finding that thing that excites, motivates, compels you, makes you feel like you have not only a purpose, but a bone-deep desire to accomplish that purpose... whatever it is.

I think for a lot of us here, it's writing. At least it is for me. Says the accountant.

It's frustrating that at the age of 18, 19, 20, 21, young people are supposed to "find" their purpose, pick their major, and become fulfilled and happy individuals. Life doesn't actually work that way, at least in my experience.

Years ago columnist Mike Royko ran the Gettysburg Address through one of those gizmos, and the gizmo didn't like it. Maybe they've since gotten better...

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1990-03-08/news/9001200448_1_computer-store-sentence-dedicated

Are educational standards falling?

Which standards, exactly?

How far have they fallen, exactly?

My kids are expected to know more, do more and understand more than I ever was in school. The math is harder. The literature is more complex. The science is more involved. The rubrics are far more detailed and stringent. The projects are complicated. The behavior rules and dress codes are more strict. The books are heavier. The homework is more intense.

My parents got 4 report cards a year for me. I'm expected to check an online progress and grade report daily. My parents heard from the school if I got in big trouble, which was never. I get emails, phone messages and newsletters from the school several times a week and the vast majority of it is meaningless "communication" meant to fool parents into believing the school is "staying in touch" with us.

Yet we keep hearing "The standards are falling! The standards are falling!" This Chicken Little statement is invariably accompanied by demands for change, change and more change. Cut teacher salaries! Institute more for-profit charter schools! Homogenize everything! Leave no overpaid administrator behind! Test! Test! Test! Test some more!

There isn't a problem being addressed. There is only change for the sake of saving money and building power bases.

Chrissy said:

Dunno, but I thought I'd take this opportunity to brag that my home-schooled 1st grader just tested at third grade levels in reading, language, and math. (3.5 in math.)

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That's great.

'Course, it begs the question: is he way above average or are the standards for each grade level just way below what they should be?

All three of my kids--public schools all around--test higher than their grade level in reading, but having seen some of the "reading" being done by their fellow students, I do worry. And it's not the fault of the teachers at all, imo. The kids seem to get zero help from home. Parents don't care or are too busy with their own lives to spend time doing things to help their kids improve. The conseqeunces? Kids spend the school year learning/improving (slowly, for those with disinterested parents), then really and truly take the summers off. They return to school and teachers need to bring them up to speed, meaning they need to be retaught things they had forgotten.

As to the automated testing, I agree it's a bad idea. But I guess given the weak standards at play, it probably doesn't ultimately matter. In fact, it may even "benefit" borderline kids. Which I guess really makes it even worse...

Devil Ledbetter said:

My kids are expected to know more, do more and understand more than I ever was in school. The math is harder. The literature is more complex. The science is more involved. The rubrics are far more detailed and stringent. The projects are complicated. The behavior rules and dress codes are more strict. The books are heavier. The homework is more intense.

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My experiences are different. There is more homework, oftentimes, even for my youngest (who is in kindergarten). But for her and the one in middle school, the homework is not effective imo. It's busywork for the sake of having homework. Many assignments are overly remedial, poorly designed, or just stupid.

My son--in middle school--does have a lot of books, but he rarely needs to make use of them.

There have been a number of complicated projects for all three, but that doesn't mean such things are good learning experiences for the kids, at all.

Literature wise, I don't see any increase in complexity whatsoever. Exactly the opposite, for the younger two. The oldest is in an IB program however, so what she is doing is hardly district-wide (and actually, the program is top notch, one of the best in the State and country).

Yet we keep hearing "The standards are falling! The standards are falling!" This Chicken Little statement is invariably accompanied by demands for change, change and more change. Cut teacher salaries! Institute more for-profit charter schools! Homogenize everything! Leave no overpaid administrator behind! Test! Test! Test! Test some more!

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This is true, however. And I think most of these repsonses--more testing, more charter schools--are exactly the wrong thing to do to correct very real and very significant problems in this regard.

robeiae said:

That's great.

'Course, it begs the question: is he way above average or are the standards for each grade level just way below what they should be?

All three of my kids--public schools all around--test higher than their grade level in reading, but having seen some of the "reading" being done by their fellow students, I do worry. And it's not the fault of the teachers at all, imo. The kids seem to get zero help from home. Parents don't care or are too busy with their own lives to spend time doing things to help their kids improve. The conseqeunces? Kids spend the school year learning/improving (slowly, for those with disinterested parents), then really and truly take the summers off. They return to school and teachers need to bring them up to speed, meaning they need to be retaught things they had forgotten.

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After much thought, I've come to the conclusion that, basically, all 7 year olds are brilliant. It's the system that makes them mediocre.

I don't blame parents, per se. After all, parents have been guaranteed a good education for their kids by the government.

That said, I do think that the interaction between parent and child when it comes to learning is extremely valuable. For example, when, during this last school year, my 15 y.o. and I googled answers to geometry questions (we couldn't easily find them in his textbook--what an obnoxious textbook, might I add!--and I sure as hell couldn't remember what I'd learned), we have the most amazingly fun time doing it, finding the answers.

There is indeed a special connection between parents and their kids (even their teens! ) when it comes to learning. I think it means something to those kids, too, to connect through learning with their moms or dads. More even than a connection with a teacher, although teacher/student connections are quite valuable as well.

Chrissy said:

After much thought, I've come to the conclusion that, basically, all 7 year olds are brilliant. It's the system that makes them mediocre.

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And there is your problem. There is no all. Many 7 year old kids are brilliant. There are others that will never learn the alphabet.

Maxinquaye said:

It is because the idea that computer automated grading software can be used in real life testing environments with actual students gets bureaucrats salivating at the "increases in efficiency" and "cost savings".

http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/mortarboard/2013/may/24/automated-marking-bad-for-essays


Think about it. An essay is an argumentative piece of prose; it's - in its finest form - something that elevates people like my avatar from mediocrity to shaping the world. It is intellectual, analysing, sarcastic. It is word-brawling with ideas and facts. The essay is an instrument for convincing other people about something.

How can you convince a machine about anything?

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I don't know, maybe it's easier to convince a machine than an idiot. I'm not so sure which intelligence I should trust anymore.

Xelebes said:

And there is your problem. There is no all. Many 7 year old kids are brilliant. There are others that will never learn the alphabet.

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My problem? Really.

My point is that, absent mental/psychological challenges, all 7 year olds have the ability (i.e., the aptitude) to learn, and learn QUICKLY. They are like sponges. It's the natural state of a young brain. Do you disagree?

Chrissy said:

My point is that, absent mental/psychological challenges, all 7 year olds have the ability (i.e., the aptitude) to learn, and learn QUICKLY.

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So . . . the U.S. is basically a giant version of Garrison Keillor's Lake Wobegon, where all the children are above average?

caw

Chrissy said:

My problem? Really.

My point is that, absent mental/psychological challenges, all 7 year olds have the ability (i.e., the aptitude) to learn, and learn QUICKLY. They are like sponges. It's the natural state of a young brain. Do you disagree?

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Why would they be absent of those challenges?

Xelebes said:

Why would they be absent of those challenges?

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You're being needlessly antagonistic.

What I meant to say (and yes, I used the term "all" incorrectly) is that the vast majority of children are SMART, simply because they are born. Mental or psychological challenges make this not 100% true. But human beings, by and large, are born with a massive capacity, lacking any hindrance, to learn. Children are sponges. Have you ever watched a toddler learn to speak? Have you ever watched a young child learn to read? It's akin to magic, it's so amazing.