What do you demand of a novel?

redneckballerina · Apr 25, 2012

I'm a pretty patient, forgiving reader because even a poorly executed book can teach me something about the craft of writing. And I admit I enjoy snarking a bad book occasionally (in private, with my friends. I don't believe in publicly bashing books.) So I'll finish reading (or at least skimming) a lot of books even if I'm not impressed by them.

Things I dislike: prose so clunky the story trips over it; flat characters and stilted dialogue; weak motivations or a badly structured plot.

I can't say I have any true deal breakers because so much depends on the book itself, my mood, why I'm reading it, etc.

What I particularly look for in a book, or what creates a book I'll love: dimensional, credible characters; smooth prose; an engaging voice; a well-crafted, intricate plot with unexpected corners and hidden paths; depth and nuances that make me think; a vivid setting.

BethS · Apr 25, 2012

Barbara R. said:
Present tense, in that list?! I protest, on behalf of those of us who can't (on occasion) help ourselves, and on behalf of those books that demand to be in present tense.

A cut all the more egregious since the rest of your list is spot on.

I know, I know. But I can't help it. Present tense drives me crazy. I'm constantly editing it back to past tense while I read.

That said, I did suffer through it just so I could read Suspicion. Which was worth it.

quicklime · Apr 25, 2012

What are deal breakers for you? piss me off, bore me, etc. and you will likely lose me. turn it into a grim treasure-hunt (oh, look, another goddamn exclamation point) for things I feel ridiculously over-used, and you lose me. get clever, not in a subtle and well-managed way, but in a ham-fisted way, and lose me. Basically, anything that pulls me outside the story runs a risk of it. I may go back in (I usually do) but I'm less likely to buy a second book. As examples, I found Practical Demonkeeping to be a very fun read sometimes, gratingly "aren't I clever" self-aware and capable of dragging jokes out far too long in others....so I haven't bought another book by Moore. I also found the mythos interesting in the first Anita Blake book....her fucking hair, not so much. So I only read one of those, too.

What kinds of things have to happen immediately for you to read past the first few pages?
something interesting. that could be a bomb going off, or a guy taking a leak.....it doesn't require an action or body-count threshold, but an ability to hold and draw me in, so there is no real metric for this.

How far into a book is the author still in danger of losing you?
depends how bad the book is. or gets. and as I said, I may well read the book start to finish, but they may still lose me for future volumes.

When you finish reading a novel, what kinds of things will determine how you qualify your experience?
did I like it? I might like it because it scared the shit out of me, made me sad, made me laugh, whatever, but I have to enjoy it. The why is less important. Weigh that against whatever I didn't like. I don't do a lot of in-depth analysis of my reading experience, other than on the fly (I may read "like sinuous sea beasts lurked below" and groan at the metaphor and alliteration, and this will be noted somewhere in my brain, but I don't write a mental treatise on the book and evaluate my experience in that manner), so at the end it is as simple as "did I enjoy it?". Some books, btw, I enjoy more for the ability to make me uncomfortable...I just finished The Cormorant and it was one of those. Still, I liked the awful book and told my wife to read it.

Just trying to find some commonalities in the reading habits of writers.
I doubt there are many. Different people "like" different things, and have different approaches as well as reasons. If you just asked "what have you read recently?" I could say I read Bridges of Madison County, bevause the jacket excerpt was so horrible and purple I wanted to study that book--I didn't enjoy it, but I did choose to read it. And someone else....they may well have enjoyed it. Folks here loved Twilight. Other folks here loathed it. I haven't read it, but if I did, it would be read to study it, which is a reading habit I have (studying books I think are bad to see why....and also, why they succeeded anyway), a lot of other writers do not. And very few recreational readers have. So I'm not sure how many commonalities there are....it would be like polling to ask what people liked to eat, to seek commonality.

Please feel free to answer one or more of the above, and also to address any issues I overlooked that you think relevant. Thanks. no others, good luck with the survey

bearilou · Apr 25, 2012

As long as the prose isn't clumsy to the point of near unreadability*, I can look past it and hope to be engaged by the characters and the situation. If I'm hooked there, I'm along for the ride, even with moments of rough writing.

*and that's not just horrible grasp of writing. The prose can be written beautifully *cough*Kushiel'sDart*cough* but if I'm stumbling along trying to make sense I'll never get to the fascinating characters and interesting worlds and plots, I'll drop the book like a bad boyfriend.

Barbara R. · Apr 25, 2012

BethS said:
I know, I know. But I can't help it. Present tense drives me crazy. I'm constantly editing it back to past tense while I read.

That said, I did suffer through it just so I could read Suspicion. Which was worth it.

Thanks. I guess we all have our speedbumps. Stories written in second person always make me want to smack the writer.

shadowwalker · Apr 25, 2012

The most important thing for me is the characters. At the very least, I have to not dislike the MC. I may not like him at the outset, but the author better change my mind within the first chapter or two. Once I've decided I can root for the MC, then I want, as others have said, to be engaged/entertained - lose me in the story.

But I'm also a stubborn reader. Once I decide, based on author or cover blurb, that I'm going to read a book, I do my darnedest to finish it. I'm reading one right now by an author I usually like - but it's tough because the MC, while being set up, is a real a**wipe. I keep plowing on, hoping for him to have some kind of revelation, but halfway through the book I'm about ready to give up.

I seem to be running into a spate of those lately - two of my last three reads have been favored authors disappointing me. :e2bummed:

Maze Runner · Apr 25, 2012

buzhidao said:
Yes, entertainment and engagement are pretty much the main draw of fiction, I'd say. At the very least, they're the main business.

Literary fiction is sort of a blurry term sometimes, from what I hear, but the basic line I see over and over is that literary fiction is more about the characters with the plot happening sort of under the surface, whereas other fiction has the plot as the main thing driving it forward. In both, characters and plot are important, but the balance is different. (And I'm just regurgitating things I've read--I don't actually know any of this firsthand.)

If entertainment and engagement sound like too little to you, think of what those things actually entail: emotional attachment, emotional involvement, intellectual stimulation, making someone feel more alive and giving them happiness. A really good book will have me seriously messed up about it. It will keep me awake without caffeine and I'll be trembling and freaking out and when it's over I'll be seriously depressed. The more involved I am, the worse the emotional fallout. It's like having really long, gradual sex, but the afterglow is replaced with moody emo fucked-up-in-the-head withdrawal. ...Okay, not sex. More like crack. With a comedown.

If I could stick my book in someone's face and have them snort it up and make it do that to them, I'd be the happiest person in the world. (Until I got sick of the high and decided to go put porcupines in my bathroom or something. I'm insatiable.)

Yes, I've read that clarification on literary fiction before, but forgot that I had. Thanks.

Right- I was a little vague when I asked if that was all-- what I wanted to do was ask for more specific demands. I know I'm pretty demanding, but it's due to the fact that I'm a pretty impatient person. I don't sit still very well. I have to connect to the narrator's voice. That doesn't mean they have to "speak" in a certain way, or from a certain class or era. So much is about the rhythm, the sound of the prose.

Yes, I've actually had that thought. Nothing better than a 300 page seduction. (other than maybe a 400 page seduction)

Maze Runner · Apr 25, 2012

triceretops said:
More than anything, I appreciate/adore a great voice/style.

I really have to agree with this. I do however get disappointed if after 50 or so pages not much happens. I liken it to melody in song.

Maze Runner · Apr 25, 2012

BethS said:
Poor/amateurish writing. Lack of conflict. Unlikeable characters. Boring situations. Present tense. Likable, but no saints right? At least not as MC's.

Good writing and the beginnings of an engaging story.
Yeah, I think something has to happen early on to assure me that there's an actual story here.

That can depend. I've been known to quit after two sentences or halfway through a book.

Would I ever want to read the book again? Only the very best ones get a "yes" to that. Good ones often don't, because while I liked the outcome, I don't necessarily want to repeat the journey.

Beyond that, I like books that engage me both emotionally and intellectually, and that tell a ripping good story. I also love lyrical writing (but not purple prose) and a voice that draws me in.

Do we agree, I wonder, that just as in movies there are certain places in a story where something has to happen? I doubt it's as stringent in novels (though I'm not sure of this) but just places where the reader/audience is saying to themselves- "Ok, I'm with you so far. But something better happen here."

Maze Runner · Apr 25, 2012

jjdebenedictis said:
I kept statistics on this one year, and generally if I was going to give up on a book, it was by page 10.

With one book (that year), I held on until page 50 because the writing was so good, but nothing was going on with plot and I finally gave up.

I'm a very impatient reader. I do give up on books because of the quality of the writing or finding that I can't stand the protagonist, but I'm most likely to give up simply because nothing that hooks my interest has happened yet.

Until page 10. That's all you get.

I'm the same way. I do care a lot about voice. But this is supposed to be a story, no? That implies that things have to actually happen. I need something almost immediately, in the way of conflict or problem to drive plot- I need another something around page 50. I need escalating conflict throughout and a big plot point I think comes about 3/4 into the book to twist the action in an unexpected way.

Maze Runner · Apr 25, 2012

Mikael. said:
These days, I'll drop a book as soon as it bores me. Can't empathize with the protagonist? CBA reading it. I don't look for the meaning of life in books, I look for something that will make me: laugh, cry or bite my nails, preferably all three.

I definitely don't look for the meaning in life, but if it's a credible, pertinent (to life), a believably developing story, you can't help but take away a few nuggets, right? At least for people in those particular kinds of circumstances.

Maze Runner · Apr 25, 2012

heyjude said:
I read to be entertained. I'm perfectly willing to pitch a book at any time during if it stops being entertaining. I dislike religious bashing, animals (and to some extent kids) in peril, annnd what else? --that's about it, I think, those are the immediate things that will make me throw a book, other than being bored.

Oh, and omni. I have a hard time with this POV, esp. if the voice is distant, like I can't quite latch onto a character to root for.

If the ending is so ambiguous as to be WTFish, I won't read anything else by that author.

I mostly don't like omni either. I want intimacy. I want to look at the world through the character's eyes. I think it is more telling.

Phaeal · Apr 25, 2012

To choose a book, I read the first few pages. I'm "listening" for the voice of the writer, for a storyteller who makes me trust him or her to do this thing (whatever it may be) right.

It's easier to point out what destroys my trust than what wins it, which can be quite subtle. Deal-breakers include poor technique on any level, lack of originality (same-old-same-old syndrome), blatant inconsistencies, flat or cliched characters (especially sick of sarcastic and/or whiny and/or supposedly hard-assed babes/dudes), and any sense that the writer is showing off for the sake of showing off.

A good book will catch me by the end of the first page, a great one perhaps by the first or second sentence. Sometimes that voice I'm listening for just rings like a bell, calling me home.

Maze Runner · Apr 25, 2012

Barbara R. said:
[FONT=&quot]Good question, Bebop, and one I've thought about a lot, since I evaluate many novel openings each year. Every novel begins, I believe, with a tacit contract between writer and reader. The writer asks for the reader’s time and attention, and lays out what he/she offers in return: a story set in a particular time and place, told in a particular voice from a particular POV, peopled by a main character worth reading about. This character is faced a big problem or quest that is either implied or shown early on. The advent of that problem gives the novel a starting point; its resolution provides an end. In addition, openings need to be tense, because tension is what compels readers to keep turning the pages; and they need to be written in a voice and a style that engage me as a reader.

When I read for my own pleasure, it doesn't take more than a page or two for me to decide whether or not to continue. Not everything shows up that quickly---structural problems obviously take longer to surface---but a couple of pages are enough to determine if a writer's style engages me.
[/FONT]

Thanks, Barbara. There is most definitely a deal made on page one, right? The reader's end is to say that they are willing to take the journey, to suspend their disbelief and the writer's end is to make it worth their while. The tension has to be there, because without tension or conflict there's no need for action.

The question of style is the most intriguing one for me. It seems that may be the most subjective of the demands. Do we agree that though many might find a certain style all they could ever wish for, others may just not be able to latch on? It is a little like fishing, isn't it? A writer casts a line fitted with attractive bait, hoping for that hit and then, once you have 'em hooked, to hold 'em through all the twists and turns and reel 'em into the boat?

Maze Runner · Apr 25, 2012

redneckballerina said:
I'm a pretty patient, forgiving reader because even a poorly executed book can teach me something about the craft of writing. And I admit I enjoy snarking a bad book occasionally (in private, with my friends. I don't believe in publicly bashing books.) So I'll finish reading (or at least skimming) a lot of books even if I'm not impressed by them.

Things I dislike: prose so clunky the story trips over it; flat characters and stilted dialogue; weak motivations or a badly structured plot.

I can't say I have any true deal breakers because so much depends on the book itself, my mood, why I'm reading it, etc.

What I particularly look for in a book, or what creates a book I'll love: dimensional, credible characters; smooth prose; an engaging voice; a well-crafted, intricate plot with unexpected corners and hidden paths; depth and nuances that make me think; a vivid setting.

A lot to be learned in books you don't like. What not to do!

Flat characters and stilted dialogue- I agree. Not like life.

I do like a surprise. And I do want to think. I want to look at something a little differently than I had before.

quicklime · Apr 25, 2012

I'm a fan of tension, but I don't think it needs to be there on the first page at all. you need to interest the reader. "The Cormorant" opened with a box and description....kinda-sorta tensiony, because if you knew what the book was about beforehand, you had an idea. But if not, it was still just a box. "It" took several pages of waxing poetic and tinny nostalgia before anything happened.....you either stuck around because it was Stephen King, because he engaged you, or both, but it wasn't because of any tension. Many books go as long or longer without tension....there's more than one way to grab a reader.

Maze Runner · Apr 25, 2012

Phaeal said:
To choose a book, I read the first few pages. I'm "listening" for the voice of the writer, for a storyteller who makes me trust him or her to do this thing (whatever it may be) right.

It's easier to point out what destroys my trust than what wins it, which can be quite subtle. Deal-breakers include poor technique on any level, lack of originality (same-old-same-old syndrome), blatant inconsistencies, flat or cliched characters (especially sick of sarcastic and/or whiny and/or supposedly hard-assed babes/dudes), and any sense that the writer is showing off for the sake of showing off.

A good book will catch me by the end of the first page, a great one perhaps by the first or second sentence. Sometimes that voice I'm listening for just rings like a bell, calling me home.

Your post reminds me of something I heard. May not be news to you or to most on here- but it was I believe referenced to art in general- IT has to at once be like everything you ever (read), and like nothing you ever (read). Meaning I think, that there has to be an immediate identification, but treated in a unique way.

Trust is a big word. More trust involved than in music or movies, if only because of the time a reader must invest. Your dealbreakers sound a lot like mine. When the writer's intention gets in the way it breaks the dream. It's like what Spencer Tracy said about acting- "Never get caught doing it."

And believability- when I don't buy something I no longer trust the story and the author.

Barbara R. · Apr 25, 2012

Bebop said:
Thanks, Barbara. There is most definitely a deal made on page one, right? The reader's end is to say that they are willing to take the journey, to suspend their disbelief and the writer's end is to make it worth their while. The tension has to be there, because without tension or conflict there's no need for action.

The question of style is the most intriguing one for me. It seems that may be the most subjective of the demands. Do we agree that though many might find a certain style all they could ever wish for, others may just not be able to latch on? It is a little like fishing, isn't it? A writer casts a line fitted with attractive bait, hoping for that hit and then, once you have 'em hooked, to hold 'em through all the twists and turns and reel 'em into the boat?

The deal is struck within the first few pages---sometimes all it takes is a paragraph. I just finished reading Edward St. Aubyn's PATRICK MELROSE NOVELS, and he had me from the first line.

And yes, the issue of style is very individual. I'm looking for a voice I can trust to take me on a ride. It has to be self-confident, the voice of a writer who knows he's got a story to tell and that he's the exact right person to tell it; nothing wishy-washy or tentative about it.

Maze Runner · Apr 25, 2012

quicklime said:
What are deal breakers for you? piss me off, bore me, etc. and you will likely lose me. turn it into a grim treasure-hunt (oh, look, another goddamn exclamation point) for things I feel ridiculously over-used, and you lose me. get clever, not in a subtle and well-managed way, but in a ham-fisted way, and lose me. Basically, anything that pulls me outside the story runs a risk of it. I may go back in (I usually do) but I'm less likely to buy a second book. As examples, I found Practical Demonkeeping to be a very fun read sometimes, gratingly "aren't I clever" self-aware and capable of dragging jokes out far too long in others....so I haven't bought another book by Moore. I also found the mythos interesting in the first Anita Blake book....her fucking hair, not so much. So I only read one of those, too.

What kinds of things have to happen immediately for you to read past the first few pages?
something interesting. that could be a bomb going off, or a guy taking a leak.....it doesn't require an action or body-count threshold, but an ability to hold and draw me in, so there is no real metric for this.

How far into a book is the author still in danger of losing you?
depends how bad the book is. or gets. and as I said, I may well read the book start to finish, but they may still lose me for future volumes.

When you finish reading a novel, what kinds of things will determine how you qualify your experience?
did I like it? I might like it because it scared the shit out of me, made me sad, made me laugh, whatever, but I have to enjoy it. The why is less important. Weigh that against whatever I didn't like. I don't do a lot of in-depth analysis of my reading experience, other than on the fly (I may read "like sinuous sea beasts lurked below" and groan at the metaphor and alliteration, and this will be noted somewhere in my brain, but I don't write a mental treatise on the book and evaluate my experience in that manner), so at the end it is as simple as "did I enjoy it?". Some books, btw, I enjoy more for the ability to make me uncomfortable...I just finished The Cormorant and it was one of those. Still, I liked the awful book and told my wife to read it.

Just trying to find some commonalities in the reading habits of writers.
I doubt there are many. Different people "like" different things, and have different approaches as well as reasons. If you just asked "what have you read recently?" I could say I read Bridges of Madison County, bevause the jacket excerpt was so horrible and purple I wanted to study that book--I didn't enjoy it, but I did choose to read it. And someone else....they may well have enjoyed it. Folks here loved Twilight. Other folks here loathed it. I haven't read it, but if I did, it would be read to study it, which is a reading habit I have (studying books I think are bad to see why....and also, why they succeeded anyway), a lot of other writers do not. And very few recreational readers have. So I'm not sure how many commonalities there are....it would be like polling to ask what people liked to eat, to seek commonality.

Please feel free to answer one or more of the above, and also to address any issues I overlooked that you think relevant. Thanks. no others, good luck with the survey

Yeah, anything that breaks the dream, that calls unnecessary attention to itself. I don't want to see the grinding gears.

As long as you're in a state of uncertainty?

Yeah, sometimes it feels like a game of pluses and minuses. Even when I'm writing, there are some scenes, lines or images, etc, when I say, I nailed that mother! Other ones get I rework till they're at least the best they can be.

You got guts! Madison County's been on my shelves for years.

Maze Runner · Apr 25, 2012

Barbara R. said:
The deal is struck within the first few pages---sometimes all it takes is a paragraph. I just finished reading Edward St. Aubyn's PATRICK MELROSE NOVELS, and he had me from the first line.

And yes, the issue of style is very individual. I'm looking for a voice I can trust to take me on a ride. It has to be self-confident, the voice of a writer who knows he's got a story to tell and that he's the exact right person to tell it; nothing wishy-washy or tentative about it.

It's like when you stop to ask someone for directions and they start, "Well, I think, I'm pretty sure..." and you're already looking down the block for somebody else to ask.

EarlyBird · Apr 25, 2012

It depends on the book.

Literary fiction must be well written, with thoughtful, ingenious prose and multi-layered characters.

Historical fiction demands rich, vibrant settings with enough historical details to make me think I've learned something about that place and time.

Contemporary fiction, specifically women's fiction, must be told in a modern voice and feature a strong main character, one I could envision as my neighbor or co-worker or clerk at the grocery store. Real, in other words.

Suspense novels have to be relatively fast-paced. Don't give me too much description, just stick with the action and move along at a good clip.

Naturally, every novel should have elements of each of these characteristics, but for me the extent varies with the genre.

An across-the-board deal breaker for me is sloppy/confusing sentence construction and typos. I might overlook one or two, but beyond that I move on to the next book.

RobJ · Apr 25, 2012

Bebop said:
What are deal breakers for you? What kinds of things have to happen immediately for you to read past the first few pages? How far into a book is the author still in danger of losing you? When you finish reading a novel, what kinds of things will determine how you qualify your experience?

Ugh. You make it all sound so formulaic.

Soccer Mom · Apr 25, 2012

I just want to be entertained. That's pretty much my only requirement.

Ken · Apr 25, 2012

... date of publication. If it's been published after 1951 I toss it in the trash, unless it's by an (((AW author))).

Maze Runner · Apr 25, 2012

Ken said:
... date of publication. If it's been published after 1951 I toss it in the trash, unless it's by an (((AW author))).

Not sure if I believe you, Ken. I subscribe to the campaign of Christian McBride, the great jazz bass player- All well and good to acknowledge the greats of the past-- But, "Support LIVING musicians!"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_McBride

What do you demand of a novel?

redneckballerina

I ride the wind and dance the stars

BethS

quicklime

all out of fucks to give

bearilou

DenturePunk writer

Barbara R.

Old Hand in the Biz

shadowwalker

empty-nester!

Maze Runner

Maze Runner

Maze Runner

Maze Runner

Maze Runner

Maze Runner

Phaeal

Whatever I did, I didn't do it.

Maze Runner

Maze Runner

quicklime

all out of fucks to give

Maze Runner

Barbara R.

Old Hand in the Biz

Maze Runner

Maze Runner

EarlyBird

Grinding it out

RobJ

Soccer Mom

Crypto-fascist

Ken

Maze Runner