The Old Neverending PublishAmerica Thread (Publish America)

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vstrauss

PA's B&N quote

I've just been kind of assuming that PA made up that quoted B&N "letter".

- Victoria
 

aka eraser

Shuffling

I copied and pasted several posts from here and re-posted the lot at a new topic on the Take It Outside board called: Hashing and Re-hashing.

I then deleted those posts from here. Feel free to continue the discussion on the TIO Board.
 

Ed Williams 3

PA doesn't censor their authors???

....you wouldn't be Baghdad Bob in disguise, would you?
 

absolutewrite

Re: good catch, Jim, on the PA letters

Simon, I'm playing clean-up committee here all by my lonesome. My mods are more tolerant than I am, I'm afraid.

Me, I feel the need to move on. I didn't see this thread before now because I already *had* moved on, but was directed back just to see that you're still playing the same note. I'll take the liberty of responding to you on behalf of everyone:

Simon, you're right. If people had realized PA was fishy, they should have done some research and found boards like this earlier. Could have saved them some grief. And no, it isn't on the same scale as rape or murder. But it is still painful. And the people who complain loudly are the ones who can help save future writers from the same grief.

This thread-- the ONLY thread where people can freely complain about PA on a message board filled with literally thousands of other threads-- is made for a purpose, which has become encompassing of (a) warning writers who have not yet been sucked in, (b) discussing ways those who've already been sucked in can deal with it, and (c) offering support, camaraderie, and resources. That's the purpose, and you are serving to make people feel small and stupid for (a) not realizing something was fishy to begin with, and (b) not being willing to just move on and forget the product of their hard work.

Anything further you have to say on this topic, you're free to share in the Take It Outside forum. You'll still have plenty of an audience there; this is just not the place for it. If anyone comes here looking for real info about PA, you and those who responded to you just spent about 3 pages keeping it obscured.

I'm asking the mods to delete anything further from you here. Please, whine to me about censorship. I can take it.
 

CaoPaux

Bass Akwards publishing

I have a hazy recollection that someone asked about the elusive hardcover a few pages back. Or maybe it was me.

www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/4926.htm

For those just joining us, if a PA author manages to sell 500 copies (including what they buy themselves), their book will be "considered" for reissue under the Independence label. This honor includes availability in hard cover and a returns policy, so a bookstore may actually stock their book on shelves.
 

James D Macdonald

Re: Bass Akwards publishing

If I recall correctly there are a few other caveats besides the weasel-word of being "considered" for the Independence program after 500 sales:

1) They're inconsistent as to whether books you purchase yourself count.

2) The books have to be paid for in advance by the bookstore (vice net 60-90 days as is usual in publishing).

3) There are maximum and minimum orders required.

4) Any returns must be within sixty days.

5) There's no mention of distribution, a catalog, or a sales force.

6) There's no mention of what the bookstore discount might be.
 

KW

Bass akwards

And it is only to B&N. I haven't heard of any other bookstores getting the deal.

Kevin
 

FM St George

Re: Bass akwards

it changes almost monthly on the standards - recently they included something like "a work that illustrated the best principles of fighting against all odds like PublishAmerica has" or some such drivel...

I've seen them include AND exclude books bought by the author - probably more than likely they exclude them if you go out and drop a bundle because then they'd have to follow through...

I've NEVER seen anyone speak about finding an ID book on the shelves...
 

DaveKuzminski

Bass Akwards publishing the second

Part of the reason for those, James, is that I suspect they're still learning how the book publishing business actually works. Their actions thus far make it appear that they came in with their own model after hearing only a small portion of how it worked and decided that couldn't be right or was unfair to them as a business. On top of trying to force their new model upon everyone, they still want to be considered to be a traditional publisher.
 

RejectME

What do you mean by ID book?

Do you mean one of PA's Independence books or do you mean you haven't heard of a book put out by an indie publisher being on shelves?

Thanks,
Jerry :hat
 

James D Macdonald

Re: What do you mean by ID book?

I've seen and continue to see books by all kinds of small-press and independent publishers on bookstore shelves. I'm reasonably sure that Dave means Indepencence Books (PA's imprint).
 

Jarocal

Re: What do you mean by ID book?

Dave,

I think your assessment on PA's actions give them more credence than they are due. I think they are just a nifty scam operation that learned a way to do it within the bounds of the law. I think the ID imprint is only an offshoot to bolster the image of PA in that the few books that do make it into the program will receive enough attention to become traditionally published books with mediocre sales which will encourage more people to ascribe a measure of legitimacy to a otherwise legal scam operation.
 

DaveKuzminski

Re: What do you mean by ID book?

James, I was referring to your post on the previous page with that topic subject.

I wasn't referring to any indie publishers.

Jarocal, that is only speculation on my part regarding how they started. At this point, I believe they know what they're doing and that much of it is or borders so close on illegal that they have to have a section in their contract specifying an independent company for quarrel resolution so they can avoid most, if not all, instances of writers taking them to court. However, I believe that eventually that defense mechanism of theirs will fail. When it does, they'll find themselves paying out most or all of their ill-gotten gains.

As to your own apparent speculation on their imprint, I agree with your assessment.
 

Jarocal

Re: What do you mean by ID book?

I honestly don't think they started with a good intention. I think that they delved into a concerted effort to create a scam that affords their company protection under the law. If they wanted to start a legit comapny they would not have gotten a townhouse in Frederick, they would have picked up a warehouse for the same price in a local commercial/Industrial park and did a inexpensive attempt of making it over into a business front. I would think that at the very least they would have done that and started filling a section of it with the one or two copies of each title they need to have on hand. That would have played to the "fighting on their side" image to the authors to see a modest warehouse converted for use. The larger building, at the same price, would have also struck away the claims of some that they can not do the job they claim to do in such a small office (although I believe I adequately explained the reason why they could function in the setting they are in). The idea of actually shelving and categorizing the books published by PA also would show that they were sincere in their efforts to help new authors whereas the office they have and the probable storage of the single copy of the books in a cheap U-Store-It garage somewhere show that they are only meeting the bare legal requirements. If I were to set up a scam I would do it exactly as PA has done because it looks like a scam, it sounds like a scam, but it appears to be technically legal, if somewhat unethical. I also stated before about their choice of venue for legal action (Maryland). I don't find that the location of Poetry.Con and Publish America to be a coincidence, I think if digging were done that one would find a case history or laws favoring the ability for such businesses to continue their practices unimpeded. I live a couple hours away and have been tempted to take the ride to Frederick just to see their setup in person. I do know of a couple Commerce parks in the area that would have suited their purpose better than the townhouse if growing a business were their intentions, which leaves me wondering if the townhouse may not also act as a residence for one of the principles in the company. Being able to write the lease to your home off as a business expense would be a handy thing for a scam artist to do. With as muh business as PA does it would be easy for them to take the maximum allowable deduction. Something even more interesting would be to get the guy in trouble for having someone reside in a commercial place of business without a residency permit.

The idea of the warehouse being the headquarters would also show that the ID label was something the company always envisioned PA to grow into, something beyond helping most people "get published", the space for expansion to support a honest concerted effort like the ID label for "the cream of the crop" which have a chance to hit the best seller list and actually warrant offset production runs.
 

HapiSofi

Re: PA's B&N quote

Victoria said:
I've just been kind of assuming that PA made up that quoted B&N "letter".
Nah. Too risky. You can chop-slice-and-dice a real letter, but quoting a nonexistent letter is straightforwardly illegal. There are no circumstances in which it's allowable. If caught, defendants have no grounds for arguing that they were, however stupidly or mistakenly, acting in good faith.
 

priceless1

Re: What do you mean by ID book?

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I believe they know what they're doing and that much of it is or borders so close on illegal that they have to have a section in their contract specifying an independent company for quarrel resolution so they can avoid most, if not all, instances of writers taking them to court.<hr></blockquote>

Dave, I've been told by two attorneys that this arbitration they talk about in their contract won't hold water in any court. It's fancy wording meant to scare and intimidate, but these guys I've consulted know their lit law.
 

DaveKuzminski

Re: What do you mean by ID book?

Yes, Lynn, I agree with that assessment. Intimidation is a significant part of their style. Still, it's worked for them so far in most of their dealings.
 

James D Macdonald

Re: What do you mean by ID book?

I was replying to Jerry's post, Dave.

I personally think that PA set up Independence Books when word of exactly how bad the "no returns" policy was got to spreading out in the naive-writer community. They had to do something, so they set up this pie-in-the-sky system to make it look like returnability was available -- only with so many restrictions on it that almost no one would ever be able to achieve it. It looks now like they have two books in the program, enough to make it look like it's real, without having to go so far as become a publisher or sell books.

All part of the window dressing.
 

aka eraser

Re: PA & Barnes & Noble

A former PA author sent me some correspondence between him and B&N. This author used to post on AW but was banned. He has asked me to post the exchange of mails and because it seems relevant to some of the above discussion I've decided to do so.

I've edited text that is not germane and that would identify the author.

In his initial letter to B&N (addressed to publisherauthorinquiry(at)book.com) he quotes PA and asks B&N to comment. It's not clear whether he is quoting from personal correspondence with someone at PA or from a message posted on the PA site.

The "they" he is referring to in the introduction to his quote is Publish America.

From former PA author:

This is what they say about you:

"BN is a commercial institution, out to make money. They have not been doing too great lately, overall sales down 4 pct in February, 8 pct in March, 2 pct in April, and 0.5 pct in May. Their BN.com enterprise does even worse, they had to decide to cut their operation expenses by 50 pct, because the unit continues to lose money. Add to this their B. Dalton daughter's results: sales down more than 11 pct.

And that's not all. BN is also a 49 pct owner of vanity publisher iUniverse, an outfit that, while lavishly funded by venture capital (last year they received a $18 million injection), has yet to make a profit.

So there's your landscape. BN is willing to sell books, not only because that is the business they're in, but because they have to. Do they sell print-on-demand books? You bet. They run their own on-demand presses, and they are now doing the printing of an ever-growing number of PA titles themselves, because they sell so well! Other titles they order either directly from us, or from wholesaler Ingram who prints them at their own outfit Lightning Source. In fact, BN is one of PA's largest customers, placing orders virtually every day.

The message that some of you advocate to be issued to their local store managers has actually already been issued through BN's internal channels. Each store manager knows, or is supposed to know, where and how to order PA titles, and the majority of them does so regularly. If you delve into the history of this message board, you will find numerous examples of authors who arranged events in BN stores with great success.

Does this mean that all local managers are helpful and pro-active? No, not always. We don't know for sure, but we suspect that there is some truth to the grapevine rumor that some managers detest BN's commitment to iUniverse. They had so many authors come up with substandard quality books that they paid a small fortune for to be published, books that sell badly but that BN stores are expected to order from their own on-demand printers regardless, that they go postal whenever their computer screen says "print on demand".

It is BN that has some internal educating to do, and at a headquarters level they are aware of this. BN headquarters continues to instruct their store managers that on-demand printing is the wave of the future (hence BN's heavy investments in on-demand printing equipment). They also show on their computer databases that all (!) PA titles can safely be ordered, together with the on-demand printed titles of the majority of our fellow traditional publishers, including Random House, Simon&Schuster, HarperCollins, etc.

We continue to maintain excellent relations with BN headquarters, and they assure us that more letterhead-carrying paperwork is unnecessary to underscore a corporate policy that is already in place, and we believe they're right because the sales numbers show it.

Need a little consolation for those who still run into a brick wall? BN has recently forced their vanity daughter iUniverse to drastically cut back on the number of titles that automatically qualify for special BN treatment, from many thousands down to a few hundred. Over time, this will help to ease the nerves of store managers who are only human. They will eventually know how to distinguish between vanity published books and traditionally published books such as PA's. Just give those poor souls some time. They will come around."

On Aug. 28/03 publisherauthorinquiry(at)book.com replied:

Hello,

Can you please provide a link to the text you provided?

thanks

On Sept. 8/03 the author replied:


Dear AE,
What ever happened with this issue? I'm very interested in the verdict on what this publisher claims they do. My investigation leads me to believe "nothing" is the answer, but I want your take on it. Thanks.
Sincerely,
(name)

On Sept. 9/03 publisherauthorinquiry replied:

Hello,

BN.COM does not stock POD books unless the sales are such that warehouse stock is warranted. The number of titles that fit that bill is minute. Yes major publishers use digital printing but not in the sense that Publish America does. Random, Simon etc, actually hold stock of books in their warehouse opposed to sending a file over to Lightening source to print.

Publish America may not be a typical vanity press since they do more, however neither are they a traditional publisher. Barnes and Noble stores do not generally stock POD books, that is an antithesis to the very meaning of print on demand. Once in a while, there is a pod title that will sell very well and the stores may make an exception and carry the title. That, however, is up to the store.

As taken from the BN website:

Print-on-demand titles: with over one million titles already in print, and another 50,000 or more published every year, we obviously cannot carry every book that is published. Indeed, the key to print-on-demand technology is that it enables publishers to keep a vast number of titles in print and available without stocking inventory. Print-on-demand titles will continue to be featured on the Barnes & Noble.com website, and available for customer orders in our stores.
-------------------------
 

James D Macdonald

Re: PA & Barnes & Noble

The PublishAmerica InfoCenter material appears to come from <a href="http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/6654.htm" target="_new">this thread</a>.
<hR>

Time to do a line-by-line on the mendacious InfoCenter Twaddle in that thread too.

First, this message:

infocenter
Administrator
5/30/2003


<BLOCKQUOTE>
We've replied to this issue before, and we wish that we could correct the apparent communication challenges within Barnes and Noble. Here is some information about the issue posted again, followed by the text of a letter from the Director of Barnes & Noble's InPrint (print on demand) facility.
</blockquote>

<BLOCKQUOTE>
Contrary to what you may have been told by a local Barnes and Noble bookstore manager, they have no such policy at all,
</blockquote>

Presumably as refusing to carry any PA books across the board.

<BLOCKQUOTE>
and no, they do not categorize PublishAmerica as anything other than what we are.
</blockquote>

How much easier to say "they catagorize us as a traditional publisher" if that were the case. The way this reads, what it undoubtedly means is "they catagorize us as a vanity POD, and by golly we are a vanity POD."

<BLOCKQUOTE>
As a matter of fact, Barnes and Noble contacted us about joining their new print on demand InPrint operation, in which PublishAmerica is now a partner.
</blockquote>

B&N at one point had a PoD operation called "InPrint," and owned their own digital printing machines. Perhaps B&N rented time on those machines to PA -- it's well within the realm of belief. Any time the presses weren't printing anything they were costing money. But B&N shut down their PoD operations in August of '03, selling all the hardware to Lightning Source International.


<BLOCKQUOTE>
Not only does Barnes and Noble have no policy against stocking print on demand books, Barnes and Noble actually runs their own print on demand facility! And, in that facility, they actually print PublishAmerica books.
</blockquote>

Yes, it's probably true that at some time they sold press time to PA. B&N has gotten out of that business since. Other than that, local managers can stock a small number of non-returnable books by local authors, at their option. I expect there are a number of hedges and caveats around that in internal B&N directives.

<BLOCKQUOTE>
We get along very well with Barnes and Noble, so well that they have quadrupled the number of books that they order from PublishAmerica during the past year. Your books are available from Barnes and Noble and all major bookstores and distributors.
</blockquote>

Which year did they quadruple orders in? Was it this year, last year, some other year, or every year? Some real numbers would be very handy here.

"Available from" isn't the same as "stocked in." "Available from" means they will special order the books, when individually requested and paid in advance.

<BLOCKQUOTE>
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
From: [Director of Barnes and Noble InPrint Operation]
Sent: Monday, April 28, 2003
Subject: RE: Barnes and Noble
</blockquote>

<BLOCKQUOTE>
[My colleague] and I spoke today and clarified that your
titles will continue to be orderable through
Barnes & Noble.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
17:08:40
</blockquote>

Note that "orderable" isn't the same thing as "stocked." It appears from this quoted portion of an email that there was a question of whether PublishAmerica books would continue to be orderable. I wonder what the problem was -- failure to ship in a reasonable time? Poor order fulfillment? Poor quality leading to customers requesting refunds?

<HR>

Second InfoCenter note:

Infocenter
Administrator
6/05/2003
21:44:24


<BLOCKQUOTE>
BN is a commercial institution, out to make money. They have not been doing too great lately, overall sales down 4 pct in February, 8 pct in March, 2 pct in April, and 0.5 pct in May. Their BN.com enterprise does even worse, they had to decide to cut their operation expenses by 50 pct, because the unit continues to lose money. Add to this their B. Dalton daughter's results: sales down more than 11 pct.
</blockquote>

This is, simply stated, a flaming lie. As in "not true." As in "made up from whole cloth."

First of all, the question must be asked, when the charge is that B&N refuses to stock PA titles, why does InfoCenter feel obliged to attempt to trash B&N as their first move? What's the point of that?

Next, per B&N's financials filed with the SEC (in other words, if they fib they go to jail):

Gross sales (dollars in thousands)

13 weeks ending May 3, 2003
$1,185,605

Compare that to the same quarter, previous year:

13 weeks ending May 3, 2002
$1,133,126

Up 4.6% from the previous year.

While gross sales at B.Dalton were down, that was due to closing B.Dalton stores -- fewer stores produce lower total sales. Gross sales per store at B.Dalton were up.

Any business will attempt to cut its cost of doing business, in an attempt to make more profit.

Gross Profit, all stores (Barnes & Noble, B. Dalton, and others)(Gross sales - cost of goods and occupancy, dollars in thousands)

1998 $862,891
1999 $1,002,314
2000 $1,206,080
2001 $1,310,352
2002 $1,413,493
2003 $1,627,248

That is, gross profits up by about 100 million dollars a year, every year, for the past five years. That doesn't look much like a business that has "not been doing too great lately."

BN.com, at the time PA posted this note, wasn't owned by Barnes&Noble. It was owned by Bertelsmann AG, a German conglomerate. Barnes&Noble bought bn.com from Bertelsmann on 15 September, 2003, for $165,406,000 in cash and notes.

<BLOCKQUOTE>
And that's not all. BN is also a 49 pct owner of vanity publisher iUniverse, an outfit that, while lavishly funded by venture capital (last year they received a $18 million injection), has yet to make a profit.
</blockquote>

Again, completely untrue. At the time InfoCenter posted this message, B&N owned 22% of iUniverse.

<BLOCKQUOTE>
So there's your landscape. BN is willing to sell books, not only because that is the business they're in, but because they have to.
</blockquote>

A nonsensical statement.


<BLOCKQUOTE>Do they sell print-on-demand books? You bet. They run their own on-demand presses, and they are now doing the printing of an ever-growing number of PA titles themselves, because they sell so well!</blockquote>

Because PA paid them to do so, is probably more like it. But, as noted above, Barnes&Noble is out of the PoD printing business now.

<BLOCKQUOTE>Other titles they order either directly from us, or from wholesaler Ingram who prints them at their own outfit Lightning Source. In fact, BN is one of PA's largest customers, placing orders virtually every day.</blockquote>

Orders virtually every day? Really? That means ... a minimum of 364 copies (since most orders are for single copies, right?)


<BLOCKQUOTE>
The message that some of you advocate to be issued to their local store managers has actually already been issued through BN's internal channels. Each store manager knows, or is supposed to know, where and how to order PA titles, and the majority of them does so regularly. If you delve into the history of this message board, you will find numerous examples of authors who arranged events in BN stores with great success.
</blockquote>

They know how to order copies. Great. The question was about stocking copies, wasn't it? "If you delve into the history of this message board" you'll find even more examples of authors getting shut out of B&N -- until the messages are deleted and the authors banned, that is.

In any case, "arranging an event" isn't the same thing as stocking copies on the shelf, particularly not stocking copies on the shelf in stores outside of the author's driving range.


<BLOCKQUOTE>
Does this mean that all local managers are helpful and pro-active? No, not always. We don't know for sure, but we suspect that there is some truth to the grapevine rumor that some managers detest BN's commitment to iUniverse.
</blockquote>

As opposed to the grapevine rumor that managers detest PublishAmerica?


<BLOCKQUOTE> They had so many authors come up with substandard quality books that they paid a small fortune for to be published, books that sell badly but that BN stores are expected to order from their own on-demand printers regardless, that they go postal whenever their computer screen says "print on demand".</blockquote>

Substandard quality -- sell badly -- no wonder they go postal whenever the computer screen says "print on demand." By the way, InfoCenter, are you admitting here that PublishAmerica books are "print on demand" titles? I seem to recall you denying that basic fact.

<BLOCKQUOTE>
It is BN that has some internal educating to do, and at a headquarters level they are aware of this. BN headquarters continues to instruct their store managers that on-demand printing is the wave of the future (hence BN's heavy investments in on-demand printing equipment).
</blockquote>

The guys at headquarters didn't get the news either:

B&N Abandons POD, Sells Shop to Lightning Source
by Jim Milliot, PW Daily for Booksellers -- 9/25/2003
BreakingNews


...

The acquisition was completed late last month, just before B&N.com announced its intention to stop selling e-books. The two decisions remove B&N from areas that many thought were the future of book publishing and bookselling.



<BLOCKQUOTE>They also show on their computer databases that all (!) PA titles can safely be ordered, together with the on-demand printed titles of the majority of our fellow traditional publishers, including Random House, Simon&Schuster, HarperCollins, etc.</blockquote>

InfoCenter is attempting to claim that digitally printed books from major traditional publishers are the equivalent of Print on Demand titles from PA. Merely because they use the same hardware you do doesn't mean they use the same business model, you know.

<BLOCKQUOTE>
We continue to maintain excellent relations with BN headquarters, and they assure us that more letterhead-carrying paperwork is unnecessary to underscore a corporate policy that is already in place, and we believe they're right because the sales numbers show it.
</blockquote>

An incoherent paragraph. BN returns your phone calls, but they refuse to put out a directive to their store managers telling them to stock PA books, is what this looks like.

<BLOCKQUOTE>
Need a little consolation for those who still run into a brick wall? BN has recently forced their vanity daughter iUniverse to drastically cut back on the number of titles that automatically qualify for special BN treatment, from many thousands down to a few hundred. Over time, this will help to ease the nerves of store managers who are only human. They will eventually know how to distinguish between vanity published books and traditionally published books such as PA's.
</blockquote>


Don't worry, chums -- the bookstore managers have long-since figured out how to tell the difference between traditionally published books and vanity titles such as PA's. Why do you think that your authors had, and continue to have, such a hard time getting their books on the shelves?

<BLOCKQUOTE>
Just give those poor souls some time. They will come around.
</blockquote>

In the thirteen months since this message from InfoCenter was posted things have gone from bad to worse for PA authors. When are those "poor souls" going to "come around"?
 

NancyMehl

Re: PA & Barnes & Noble

Wow, James.

Thanks for all the effort. You certainly addressed this PA misdirection with clarity and intelligence.

It is appreciated.

Nancy

nancymehlbooks.com
 

DaveKuzminski

Re: Dave gets a plug on PA MB

Hasn't been deleted yet. Now there's a plug for Writer Beware.

I'm surprised that HB didn't refer to me as a literary terrorist. He must be getting feeble.
 

James D Macdonald

Quadrupled

I got interested in that claim that B&N "quadrupled" their orders from PublishAmerica in the previous year. I went to the PA board to search on "quadrupled," and found:

Actually, Barnes and Noble has quadrupled the number of books they order from PublishAmerica during the past year, as can be seen by all the stories and reports here on the board from hundreds of authors whose books are stocked.

-- <a href="http://www.publishamerica.com/Press/response.htm" target="_new">Press Clippings (current)</a>


Actually, Barnes and Noble has quadrupled the number of books they order from PublishAmerica during the past year.

<a href="http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/4851.htm" target="_new">7/08/2004</a>


We get along very well with Barnes and Noble, so well that they have quadrupled the number of books that they order from PublishAmerica during the past year.

-- <a href="http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/6654.htm" target="_new">5/30/2003</a>


We get along very well with Barnes and Noble, so well that they have quadrupled the number of books that they order from PublishAmerica during the past year.

-- <a href="http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/signings/75.htm" target="_new">4/28/2003</a>


We get along very well with Barnes and Noble, so well that they have quadrupled the number of books that they order from PublishAmerica during the past year.

-- <a href="http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/general/123.htm" target="_new">4/09/2003</a>

<hr>

It might be interesting to get 'em to back those statements up in a court of law. It seems that they first started making that claim in '03, presumably speaking of '02 in comparison with '01. They're still making the claim in '04, presumably speaking of '03 in comparison with '02.

I think that what's going on is some vague hand-waving squishy claims that sound impressive if you don't think about them, but don't have any substance.
 
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