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A Certain Writing Issue...(Seeking help for a long time problem...)

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BenPanced

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You've been given good advice here, but it seems to me you've been asking the wrong questions.

What you want to know is, "how to finish a story?"

The answer is easy. Turn up. Write. Do not throw your work away.

Do that every day for a year. See what you end up with.
Hell, do it for a month. A week. You'll have a lot more written than you do now, I'd wager.
 

rohstod

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[FONT=&quot]If you're more interested in the villain, write the villain. Some people might require the protagonist to be sympathetic, but you just need to accept that this reader is not your audience: no book is going to appeal to everyone.
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[FONT=&quot]Our own interest in the character often seems to translate to reader interest. Your dislike for the typical hero-type is probably going to show through your writing.
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dirtsider

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The question I have is:

Who is trying to take the 'villain' down? If this villain is rich, evil, and powerful, s/he's going to piss someone off at some point. That person will want to take your villain out if only for the bragging rights.
 

Nogetsune

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@dirtsider- Usually a character I have no passion for. The reason I struggle with this issue is not just because "I like villains" but because the kind of villains I get -obssessed- with in my stories are the kind of villains that are -universally- hated by all: Selfish villains who hide behind privlage and systemic corruption to insulate themselves from the concequences of their actions. Case in point, most -effective- villain protagonists have been characters that have at least -some- shade of benevolence in them. Dexter Morgan, for example, while he is a seiral killer, and does love blood and murder, he also has something of a "code" and struggles with his darkside. He has evil within him, but also you could say, some good, that makes him limit his evil to only targeting people who are just as bad, if not worse, then him. He is evil, he loves to murder, but at the same time has a -benevolent- side that temperes his wickedness. He is a person in possession of both light and darkness, and nobody can ever quite know which is stronger. It is this clash between goodness and evil within one person and the suspense of not knowing which will ultimatly win out that makes dexter interesting.....if he targeted innocents as well as the guilty..if he was didn't have his little bit of unselfish "light" to war with his darkness...he would just be your garden varity seiral killer...and most likely not protagonist materal.

Likewise, take a look at Light Yagami. Sure, his end of anime self was a crazed megalomanic who was totally unsympatheitc, at the -start- of the anime he was right-minded. Even if his means where terrible he had a noble goal we could empathize with, even if we didn't agree with his approch. It was because of this side of him that people where willing to follow him, and why he was -effective- as a protagonist. if Light -started out- with his end of anime characterization, I don't think he would have been popular at all. He would have been a totally unsympathetic madman that would be a great antagonist but a poor MC. It is the fact that light -had- noble goals, and that those -noble goals- lead him down a dark path that made him interesting. If Light Yagami was just a greedy, selfish SOB that used the deathnote to, say, kill rich people and arrange things so he inheirited their wealth...or used it to gain an edge in buisness and reap massive profits...would he have been nearly as effective a protagonist? No. A great antagonist, to be sure....but protagonist materal not so much...

These are just some examples....but I can think of more. It seems that most villains who are protagonists are either motivated by a selfless or benevolent ends but use terrible means to achieve them(Light Yagami, Lelouch) or have a prominent -good side- that wars with and, at least sometimes tempers, their darker aspects(Dexter Morgan). They are sympathetic because of their good sides....because they walk the line between light and shadow. If dexter killed innocents as well as criminals, or Light started off as the deluded megalomanic he was at the end of Deathnote, would they really have been as effective protagonists? Characters who stand fully in the "darkness" rather then in the twilight line between light and dark, good and evil, make great antagonists....but can they be protagonists as well? I sadly think most people would say "no" and the characters that stand fully on the dark side rather then straddeling the line between light and dark are the kind I like best.

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To illustrate my point, compare the above examples to say, one of my characters. One character in paticular that I have been obssessed with ever since I first created them I feel makes a terrible, terrible protagonist. This, mind you, is a character I love, and would really like to explore, but no matter what I do I just can't bring myself to write them because they overtake any story I put them in, and they make a lousy protagonist.

Why? Well...they have...no tragic backstory. No childhood of abuse. No dead friend/girlfriend/crush/puppy/whatever to set them down the path to the dark side. They don't have any -grand goal- of making the world a better place, and have no -personal code- of honor that prevents them from crossing certain lines. They are a rich, spoiled brat who's emense privlage has utterly warped their perspective. Their life has been so sheltered and opulant that they have become utterly removed from reality. They see the world as basicly revolving around them, believe themselves to be entitled to doing whatever they want to do and are supremely arrogant.

This character, is not, however, thoughtless. They know that their greed and selfishness hurts people. They know that many people have it worse then them. They just don't care because they are misanthropic, and believe that everybody is just as selfish as them and that, if given the same privlage, they would do the same things as them and every other corrupt 1%er on the planet. People who claim they are "good" and do "good" deeds in their eyes are just doing it to puff up their own ego and make themselves feel better. They can boast about how they are "charitble" if they are wealthy, or if they are part of the 99% they can make themselves feel superior to their "betters" despite the fact they are "losing" the game of life. This character does give to charities, but does so only for the finaicnal incentives, and only gives to charities that aid animals, as they believe other humans to simply be a waste of good money. "At least animals can be cute sometimes....and taste really good."

This character see life as being random and inheirently unfair, and rather then try to change that fact they embrace it wholeheartedly and revel in their good fortune and privlage. They view life as a game, and they play it by their own rules. Nothing is off limits in the game of life as, in their mind, the massive head-start they have; their wealth and power, can be lost or taken away...and there are plenty of people just as selfish and ruthless as them who'd love to do just that. They also have a very unique, and entertaining style and flare with which they do their villainy, and can be quite...funny...when they want to be...but their laughter is usually at somebody else's expense. They rarely take anything they do seirously as to them it's just another game.....they will sentince underprivlaged children to a life of slave labor and send an assassin to murder a rival with the smile ane exuberance of a cliche' anime schoolgirl.

THIS is one of the characters I want to write...a FAR cry from the likes of Dexter and Light who either had good ends motivating their evil means or an inner goodness that temperes and fights their darker urges. This character is selfish, selfish, selfish and would happily sell you down the river either to make a profit, or just because they got bored with you. There is no love of the world, love of their fellow man or sense of honor in this individual. They don't walk the "twiight line" between light and dark. They gleefully wallow in shadow, fully accepting the intoxicating embrace of darkness while never once having seen the light. Thats why I feel they would not make a sucssessful protagonist. They are just a rich spoiled brat who is fundementally selfish that realizes what they are....and embraces it fully.


I guess maybe, just maybe...the fact that they never had a -chance- to see the light, to know what truely good people act like, may be their -only- sympathetic point. They, in a sense...are just as much a victim as a victimizer. They are a victim of prilvage, of wealth, and of growing up in a world filled with nothing but people who are shallow, superficial and motivated by greed. Chances are if they grew up in a middle-lower class home with parrents that actually instilled good values rather then just threw shiny new toys at them to keep them happy, they would have developed into a normal, well-adjusted person with a sense of morality. I's just their extreme wealth and privlage, and the kind of people that have surounded them for most of their life, that has shaped their views and made them into the selfish monster they are. I guess, in that one reguard, they could maybe be considered to have one, single sympathetic point...that they are what they are what they are because they when't given the opportunity to be anything else. "Absolute power corrupts absolutly..." is a phrase with a degree of truth, and this character who was born with absolute power, and thus never had a chance to be anything but corrupt. The emense privlage and power they so deeply value is in fact a prison for their mind, keeping them ignorant of any other way of thinking or being. However, you'd be hard pressed to find anybody else who would agree.

So yeah, that should give you some perspective on why I have so much trouble writing my villain(s). I guess since I have passion for this individual I should just write them anyway and see how it turns out. The worst that can happen is nobody else likes them like me and I have a story I can't share w/o going the self-publishing route....which I suppose is little different from my current situation, except for the fact I've actually acomplished something.....so I guess i have nothing to lose since the time lost would, at least, be time enjoyed, as you can likely tell my -passion- for this character from my post, and I do love them to death.
 
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Mr Flibble

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There is none so good he is without all flaw, and none so wretched he is without all good.

Your protag does not absolutely need to be "good*". He needs to be "interesting"

I am assuming you have read say American Psycho or Lolita or many other similar works? Then again, if you had you'd be aware that niceness is not a prerequisite?


*I love a morally ambiguous hero myself.

PS based on your posts about various worries.. you are procrastinating. Write the story, worry about it later.
 
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Sage

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This character is in your brain and he won't let go. Tell his story. Don't worry about whether he's marketable or sympathetic. Tell the story you want to tell. Seriously.

IF this is a novel that turns out to be unmarketable, then what have you lost? You've told his story so you can move on and gotten writing practice too.

But maybe this is a marketable story. Defeating yourself before you begin is a waste of your time, a much bigger waste than a novel nobody may ever enjoy except you (and I love a good wrote-for-myself kind of story, personally).

You haven't written anything yet. There's no point in stressing over something you haven't actually written. Let this guy out of your brain.
 

GregM

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Have you tried writing in a setting that is more morally greyish black? So even your protag would be a bit towards that darker spectrum?

If your setting/customs lean towards that side it's easier to build empathy.

An example might be like a medieval Romanian Prince, seventh in the line of succession, born on the wrong day of the wrong month. A predisposition to melancholy/illness that makes him physically less suitable, yet his heart burns with the ambition of a King.

He sleeps with a gypsy woman passing by that promises to teach him some dark art in return for the seed of a king growing inside her(for who knows what dark purpose).

You could go in a lot of different interesting directions. There's no rule that you have to write a story that centers around some outstanding member of society.

So imo just take your world to that greyish black end of the spectrum, then find a character you want to write about there.

A bad kinda dude vs. other bad kinda dudes. It's easy for the audience to be engaged and say to themselves, "Well that's just the time they live in/society," and sit back and watch the train wreck ensue. Or whatever your cup of tea might be.

We watch movies about Alexander the Great, Genghis Khan, Hannibal, Caesar, etc. These were pretty bad dudes... but their story is engaging and the time in which it took place is more acceptable... so it works.
 

Nogetsune

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@GregM: I HATE HATE HATE writing low-tech, medieval-esc settings, though. I need some degree of -tech- to keep me interested, and actually lean towards very high tech settings that blend sci-fi and fantasy elements...I have no interest in "past" based settings...at all....I'm much more about futuristic worlds....I LOVE evil corporations and corrupt capitalists, and generally don't care for nobility, at all, because they are overused and boring. Everybody and their mother is writing about the prince/princess. Nobody is writing about the guy that owns the corrupt megacorp and/or his ambitious son/daughter. Futurestic and modern/psudo modern corrupt capitalist elite interest me FAR more then your typical nobility ever will.... so while the advice is sound, I don't think it would work here because I just have -no- interest what so ever in a past-type setting?
 
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Mr Flibble

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@GregM: I HATE HATE HATE writing low-tech, medieval-esc settings, though. I need some degree of -tech- to keep me interested, and actually lean towards very high tech settings that blend sci-fi and fantasy elements...I have no interest in "past" based settings...at all....I'm much more about futuristic worlds....I LOVE evil corporations and corrupt capitalists, and generally don't care for nobility, at all, because they are overused and boring. Everybody and their mother is writing about the prince/princess. Nobody is writing about the guy that owns the corrupt megacorp and/or his ambitious son/daughter. Futurestic and modern/psudo modern corrupt capitalist elite interest me FAR more then your typical nobility ever will.... so while the advice is sound, I don't think it would work here because I just have -no- interest what so ever in a past-type setting?

You totally missed the point there. The setting is irrelevant to what he was saying. You can totally take it into a future one.

And that is,
There's no rule that you have to write a story that centers around some outstanding member of society.

So imo just take your world to that greyish black end of the spectrum, then find a character you want to write about there.

That can work anywhere and anywhen

There is no reason you shouldn't write this character's story. In fact he only reason to not write it is because you've told yourself you can't. I mean, Milton made Satan sympathetic in Paradise Lost.

Tell yourself you can and get cracking!

ETA: Because I thought this sounded familiar....you have started at least two other threads (maybe more, I didn't look at all of them) asking basically the same thing over the last eight months. You got the same answers now as you got then, you've had herds of examples of other authors who have done the same thing but still...here you are asking again like the answers will be different.




You've got two choices here. Write this story. Or don't. The only thing stopping you is you.
 
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dirtsider

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I think you're missing my point. I'm not saying you should write your story from the POV of the person taking down your villain. Your problem, if I understand it correctly, is that your villain/MC is at the top of the world with no where to go and no one to challenge him. Well, find someone to challenge him. You still write the story from your villain's POV.

To use your Deathnote example, Light Yagami really gets interesting because he starts to enjoy using the Death Note and he has to cover his tracks as "Kira" when "L" gets involved in the murder investigation. Now Light is up against someone just as intelligent as he is who is trying to take him (Light) out. So he has to do all these complicated maneuvers to stay one step ahead of "L".

So think about who would want to take your villain/MC out and why and then ask yourself how would your MC react to that.
 
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DoNoKharms

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I feel like you keep bringing up this issue, but are missing the point. The problem isn't that you like villainous protagonists; as has been mentioned, there's a massive amount of fiction out there about truly evil people. The problem is that the villains you are drawn to seem so overpowered that you have trouble coming up with a conflict. *That's* the issue; your protagonist, whether a heroic do-gooder or a diabolical scheming mastermind, needs some kind of a goal, and meaningful stakes in the way of that goal. Instead of focusing so much on this hero/villain issue, you should be focusing on coming up with what your villain-protagonist truly wants and what stands in the way of getting it. And if they already have everything they want and nothing is in the way... then you don't have a story, you just have a character.
 

VeryBigBeard

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*That's* the issue; your protagonist, whether a heroic do-gooder or a diabolical scheming mastermind, needs some kind of a goal, and meaningful stakes in the way of that goal. Instead of focusing so much on this hero/villain issue, you should be focusing on coming up with what your villain-protagonist truly wants and what stands in the way of getting it. And if they already have everything they want and nothing is in the way... then you don't have a story, you just have a character.

This.

Note similarity to katiemac's three query questions. Maybe go hang out in QLH for awhile and then think about how some of that fits what you want to do. You need stakes, motivation, inciting incident, development. Not more character traits.

DoNoKharms, what is that is your avatar?
 

ebrillblaiddes

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You could always make two such characters and have them fight it out.
 
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