The “N” Word (Neo-Con)

Robert Toy

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I read it, but slightly mis-read it (I blame bad eyes and cold weather). But BOP is correct, and my response to define my understanding of "neoconservative" was an attempt to get at what it means, because I think the term has been slathered about so widely that nobody, including moi, really knows what it means. I probably should have said that in my first post.

And I don't think there really is an "opposite", any more than there's an "opposite" to a dog or a cow. Obviously, there are oppositional positions to the policies advocated by neocons, but even those who are called neocons themselves don't agree on everything.

caw
I’m plugged into a drip at the moment and am not all that clear headed and a bit slow, but I had to reply to your post.

I can’t agree with the analogy that there is no opposite of a neo con, any more than there is an opposite of a dog or cow. Dogs and cows are species of animals, while a neo con is a basic political or philosophical position.

What started out as a bit of tongue in cheek humor now has me intrigued. As the term neo con is so widely used today, and as you stated “they” don’t even agree with each other all points, is it not then unfair to label someone a neo con?

Just for arguments sake (not that I would do that), it “appears” on AW and most of the main stream media that the term neo con is twisted to mean someone who is pro-Bush more than the literal definition of a neo con.

How about using Hawks and Doves, Republicans and Democrats, Pro Bush and Anti Bush, but I feel it is disingenuous to call someone a neo con if we can’t define the opposite.

Not too bad for 30 minutes of typing huh?
 

blacbird

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How about using Hawks and Doves, Republicans and Democrats, Pro Bush and Anti Bush, but I feel it is disingenuous to call someone a neo con if we can’t define the opposite.

As far as I've been able to determine, the people who first started calling Neoconservatives "Neoconservatives" are, well, the Neoconservatives. They were, and perhaps, despite everything, still are, proud of the label. So the only way I can define one is to look hard at it and make a summary interpretative description.

And I find it truly disingenuous to insist that people come up with a definition of the "opposite" of X, if you can't define X in the first place. And even if you can define X, or at least circumscribe it adequately, it doesn't follow that it has an "opposite", which is why I made the dog and cow analogy.

For most of us, life is more complicated than labels or binary either/or codes would suggest. At least for me, it is. I'm very suspicious of that kind of binary thinking. It might work for computer programming, but in application to politics, I think we tend to get dangerous schidt: Osama bin-Laden, John Hagee, Yigal Amir, George W. ("There's good and there's evil, and that's it.") Bush. You must have a comfortable life, Robert, if you can reduce such complexity to such simple pros and cons.

caw
 
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Joe270

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And there's no such thing as simple "opposite of a neo-con." There are people who hold certain beliefs, and people who may hold a few of those, a couple, or none at all.

Gaffer is correct, in my view. I doubt there is an opposite. I don't think there is an opposite to an eco-terrorist, either. One could argue an oil company exec, but that's a forced comparison.

It's just a stupid label which, in my mind, is just used by people to taint an argument.

It isn't necessarily descriptive, as liberal left, conservative, environmentalist, religious right, or many others. It seems much more negative, like the labels of Nazi, facist, socialist, communist, but much more vague in meaning.

So the only way I can define one is to look hard at it and make a summary interpretative description.

Blac has a really good point because the label has no real meaning. It means one thing to some, quite another for others. That's why the label is not really valid in most arguments, it clouds the waters. Most folks have a pretty clear understanding of what a Nazi was, and regrettably is today. Nobody's been able to clearly nail the label 'neocon' here.

If your goal is to define the term, I don't think that's going to happen.
 

'ric

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They didn't just come from the left, they came from the frickin' real left. Irving Kristol and his pals were bonafide Trotskyists who believed Stalin hijacked the Marxist Dream and ruined it. Which he did, but that's another story entirely.

I wonder if Bill Kristol realizes he's got Marxist blood pumping in his veins?



Whether he knows it or not, it's definitely there.

Exactly right. One shouldn't be surprised here when one considers that Fascism itself began as one of many socialist "cults". The primary bone of contention at the time (circa WWI) was the issue whether Socialism should be "internationalist" or "nationalist". (Just for shits & grins bring up this point with contemporary Socialists and Laborites and watch the hub-bub that ensues).

The conclusion here should be obvious: Neo-Conservatism is nothing more than the latest incarnation of Fascism.

'ric
 
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Hilarious.

"You supported these three being put under the ground??....

w2.jpg


...you are a NEOCON AKA FASCIST!!!"

The same conservatives with the same values have been around for decades.

But Saddam Hussein and sons dead...

"NEOCONS!!"

It's good stuff.


Which came first the neocon or the Iraq war?
 

Bird of Prey

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The conclusion here should be obvious: Neo-Conservatism is nothing more than the latest incarnation of Fascism.

'ric

Yes, to quote you: exactly right.
 
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Am I a neocon?

Military Hawk
Social Liberal
Fiscal Conservative

What am I?!!

Because according to original definietion of a neocon, I am a neocon.

Has my neoconservativism been stolen by fascists?

Damn it!!
 

Bird of Prey

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Am I a neocon?

Military Hawk
Social Liberal
Fiscal Conservative

What am I?!!

Because according to original definietion of a neocon, I am a neocon.

Has my neoconservativism been stolen by fascists?

Damn it!!

I don't think there's any adequate description for you, Billy.
 
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Wow. Potent stuff.

Yeah, if you like hyperbolic, nonsensical ridiculousness.

I'd be happy to respond to every one on that list, but the copy/paste didn't work.

So bullet them for me ... or you'll have to trust that I was able to counter and bury every one. It wasn't very difficult either.

Thank you.
 
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Bird of Prey

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Here you go, Billy. It invites you to download the information/pamphlet at the end so I don't think I'm in violation of the site's copyright:

1.) Powerful and Continuing Nationalism: Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

September 11 Freedom Walk

Family Security Matters — the right-wing front group, claims ‘multiculturalism’ threatens U.S.

New Majority Leader: Iraq War “May Be The Greatest Gift That We Give” Our Grandchildren

Headstones of soldiers killed in Iraq and Afghanistan are inscribed with the Pentagons war-marketing slogans

White House and the RNC are going to make a habit of using uniformed military personnel as props at Republican political rallies, despite the fact that it is a plain violation of military regulations banning politicization of the armed forces.

"You must glorify war in order to get the public to accept the fact that your going to send their sons and daughters to die." The inside story of the cozy relationship between big box office American war movies and the Pentagon

More...

2.) Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights: Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.
One of the worst things you'll ever read about your government
We are now a torturing police state: Bush signing into law that will get rid of habeas corpus, allow hearsay evidence, and allow the President to determine what is allowable torture.
Bush Offers Himself Amnesty for Human Rights Crimes
Bush threatens to veto $442b defense bill if Congress investigates detainee abuses.
Guantanamo Judge: “I don’t care about international law. I don’t want to hear the words ‘international law’ again. We are not concerned with international law.”
Rumsfeld to approve new guidelines that will formalize the administration's policy of imprisoning without the protections of the Geneva Conventions and enable the Pentagon to legally hold "ghost detainees,"
US 'preparing to detain terror suspects for life without trial'
U.S. oks evidence gained through torture
July 1, 2003: U.S. Suspends Military Aid to Nearly 50 Countries: because they have supported the International Criminal Court and failed to exempt Americans from possible prosecution.
US has at least 9000 prisoners in secret detention
More...

3.) Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause: The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial, ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

Congressman: Muslims 'enemy amongst us'
SB 24, Ohio law to muzzle "liberals"
Former U.S. Sen. Rick Santorum has joined a conservative Washington think tank, where he will found and direct a program called "America's Enemies."
Sean Hannity creates weekly "Enemy of the State" segment on his new program
Fox radio hosts suggests putting liberal commentators and activists in concentration camps.
World history textbook used by seventh-graders at Scottsdale’s Mohave Middle School was pulled from classrooms mid-semester amid growing right criticism of the book’s unbiased portrayal of Islam
Rallies planned against 'Islamofacism': Event to 'unify all Americans behind common goal'

More...

4.) Supremacy of the Military: Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.
If you haven't seen the Oreo flash animation yet, see it here

Bush’s Domestic Program Hit List

Bush slashes domestic programs, boosts defense. Arlen Spector calls it "scandalous"

Funding for job training, rural health care, low-income schools and help for people lacking health insurance would face big cuts under a bill passed Friday by the House

Pentagon to spend 75 billion for three new brigades


President threatens veto of $11B increase in education, health research and border security funding. Meanwhile, Iraq war costs taxpayers $12B a month
Bush lobbies Congress to have the funds saved from his veto of children's health care to be spent in Iraq and Afghanistan. The $45.9-billion emergency request would push the cost of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan over $600 billion.
8 states sue Bush Administration for cuts to Children Insurance Programs
Many national parks will have to cut back on staff due to a $2.5 billion budget cut, the equivalent to one week of the Iraq war
Bush wants to cut Iraq war funding. Just kidding, he wants to cut funding for a program that gives health insurance to poor children. Governors from both parties are opposing it.
Three cable channels now feed news, information and entertainment about the armed services into millions of living rooms 24 hours a day, seven days a week: The Military Channel, the Military History Channel and the Pentagon Channel.
More...

5.) Rampant Sexism: The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Opposition to abortion is high, as is homophobia and anti-gay legislation and national policy.
It's legal again, to fire gov't workers for being gay
Bush calls for Constitutional ban on same-sex marriages
Bush refuses to sign U.N proposal on women's "sexual" rights
W. David Hager chairman of the FDA's Reproductive Health Drugs Advisory Committee does not prescribe contraceptives for single women, does not do abortions, will not prescribe RU-486 and will not insert IUDs.
The State Department has awarded an explicitly anti-feminist U.S. group part of a US$10 million grant to train Iraqi women in political participation and democracy.
More...

6.) Controlled Mass Media: Sometimes the media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.
At the White House Christmas party for the press last night, “conservative talk radio hosts dominated the place: President Bush “smiled, patted him on the back and said, ‘Keep it up. We need you guys.’”

FBI Acknowledges: Journalists Phone Records are Fair Game
Report shows U.S. government has been engaged in illegal propaganda aimed at its own citizens and the story gets only 41 mentions in the media
Free Press details recent governmental propaganda efforts, from faux-correspondent Jeff Gannon to paid-off pundit Armstrong Williams, and from the demise of FOIA to video news releases passed off as news. also... See a Whitehouse fake news release here (opens realplayer)
Fox"news" hack lets it slip: Shep Smith says ‘Fox is Bush’s network after all.
US seizes webservers from independent media sites
Bush's war on information: US editors forbidden to publish certain foreign writers

More...

7.) Obsession with National Security: Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses
Bush Aides ADMIT 'stoking fear' for political gain: Bush adviser said the president hopes to change the dynamics of the race. The strategy is aimed at stoking public fears about terrorism, raising new concerns about Kerry's ability to protect Americans and reinforcing Bush's image as the steady anti-terrorism candidate, aides said.
The Bush administration periodically put the USA on high alert for terrorist attacks even though then-Homeland Security chief Tom Ridge argued there was only flimsy evidence to justify raising the threat level.

GOP Ad These are the stakes
Keith Olbermann: "The Nexus of Politics and Terror."
Cheney warns that if Kerry is elected, the USA will suffer a "devastating attack"
GOP convention in a nutshell (quicktime)

Rove: GOP to Use Terror As Campaign Issue in 2006
More...

8.) Religion and Government are Intertwined: Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.
Jerry Falwell cleared of charges that he broke federal election law by urging followers to vote for Bush
NC congressman proposes law making it ok to preach politics from the pulpit
Texas Governor Mobilizes Evangelicals
Family research council: Justice Sunday
Thou shalt be like Bush: What makes this recently established, right-wing Christian college unique are the increasingly close - critics say alarmingly close - links it has with the Bush administration and the Republican establishment.
Park Service Continues to Push Creationist Theory at Grand Canyon and other nat'l parks
More...

9.) Corporate Power is Protected: The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.
GAO report: The White House “pressured the Environmental Protection Agency to weaken requirements that companies annually disclose releases of toxic chemicals
The K Street Project is a project by the Republican party to pressure Washington lobbying firms to hire Republicans in top positions, and to reward loyal GOP lobbyists with access to influential officials. It was launched in 1995, by Republican strategist Grover Norquist and House majority leader Tom DeLay.
American Conservative Magazine: One U.S. contractor received $2 million in a duffel bag... and a U.S. official was given $7 million in cash in the waning days of the CPA and told to spend it “before the Iraqis take over.”
There are 6 Congressional Committees investigating the Oil-for-Food (UN) scandal, yet not a single Republican Committee Chairman will call a hearing to investigate the whereabouts of 9 billion dollars missing in Iraq
Bush money network rooted in Florida, Texas: Since Mr. Bush took office in 2001, the federal government has awarded more than $3 billion in contracts to the President's elite 2004 Texas fund-raisers, their businesses, and lobbying clients
More...

10.) Labor Power is Suppressed: Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.
Bush vows to veto anti-terror security bill if it allows airport screeners to unionize.
Labor Department warns unions against using their money politically
President Bush Attacks Organized Labor: Bush attacked organized labor Saturday, issuing orders effectively reducing how much money unions can spend for political activities and opening up government contracts to non-union bidding.
March 2001: President Bush signed his name to four executive orders on organized labor last month, including one that cuts the money unions will have for political campaign spending.
Congress and the Department of Labor are trying to change the rules on overtime pay, eliminating the 40 hour work week, taking eligibility for overtime pay away from millions of workers, and replacing time and a half pay with comp days.
More...

11.) Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts: Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts is openly attacked, and governments often refuse to fund the arts.
The A to Z guide to political interference in science
Bush's new economic plan cuts funding for arts, education
Artists from all over the world are being refused entry to the US on security grounds.
A group of more than 60 top U.S. scientists, including 20 Nobel laureates and several science advisers to past Republican presidents, on Wednesday accused the Bush administration of manipulating and censoring science for political purposes
Freedom of Repression: New ruling will allow censorship of campus publications
More...

12.) Obsession with Crime and Punishment: Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations
Citizens who have done no more than criticize the president are being banned from airline flights, harassed at airports’, strip searched, roughed up and even imprisoned
The 10 most outrageous civil liberties violations of 2006
The United States has now become the world leader in its rate of incarceration, locking up its citizens at 5-8 times the rate of other industrialized nations.
American Gestapo is here: "There is hereby created and established a permanent police force, to be known as the 'United States Secret Service Uniformed Division.'"
America: secret jails, secret courts, secret arrests, and now secret laws
Snitch-or-Go-to-Jail bill will make pretty much anything short of reporting on everyone you see for doing just about anything a jailable offense. With minimum sentences, up to and including life without parole.
The problem with Gonzales is that he has been deeply involved in developing some of the most sweeping claims of near-dictatorial presidential power in our nation's history, allowing him to imprison and even (at least in theory) torture anyone in the world, at any time
Police officers don't have to give a reason at the time they arrest someone, the U.S. Supreme Court said in a ruling that shields officers from false-arrest lawsuits.
More...

13.) Rampant Cronyism and Corruption: Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.
Bush Cronyism: Foxes Guarding the henhouse
An illustrated guide to Republican scandals
Who's been indicted, named as a co-conspirator or convicted? The Grand Ole Docket tracks trial dates, court appearances and sentencing hearings for players in the current array of national political scandals.

FEMA official who coordinated the fake news conference resigns, lands a new gig heading public affairs at the Office of the Director of National Intelligence.
Rep. John Doolittle (R-Calif.) was forced to give up his seat on the powerful committee after the FBI raided his home as part of the Abramoff scandal. To replace him, the GOP leadership tapped Rep. Ken Calvert (R-Calif.), who was himself recently named one of Congress’ most corrupt lawmakers.
Making Sense of the Abramoff Scandal
In preparation for upcoming Congressional hearings, Bush Administration firing federal attorneys and appointing ringers without Senate confirmation via the patriot act.
If Bush's pick is confirmed, that will mean the five top appointees at Justice have zero prosecutorial experience among them.
Iran-Contra Felons Get Good Jobs from Bush
Big Iraq Reconstruction Contracts Went To Big Donors
Bush Wars -- Crooks Get Contracts : The main companies that were awarded billions of dollars worth of contracts in Iraq have paid more than $300 million in fines since 2000, to resolve allegations of fraud, bid rigging, delivery of faulty military equipment, and environmental damage.
US Coalition Provisional Authority (CPA) lost track of $9 billion
"Contracting in the aftermath of the hurricanes has been marked by waste, corruption and cronyism"
More...

14. Fraudulent Elections: Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.
A couple of election workers have been convicted of rigging a recount in Ohio following the 2004 election
Rolling Stone does some investigative and rather exhaustive digging into public documents and says we’re almost guaranteed the 2004 election results were massively rigged
Powerful Government Accounting Office report confirms key 2004 stolen election findings
Conyers hearing in which Clinton Curtis testifies that he was hired to create hackable voting machines (.wmv)
The Republican Party has quietly paid hundreds of thousands of dollars to provide private defense lawyers for a former Bush campaign official charged with conspiring to keep Democrats from voting in New Hampshire.
The Conyers Report (.pdf)
No explanation for the machines in Mahoning County that recorded Kerry votes for Bush, the improper purging in Cuyahoga County, the lock down in Warren County, the 99% voter turnout in Miami County, the machine tampering in Hocking County
Less access than Kazakhstan. Fewer fail-safes than Venezuela. Not as simple Republic of Georgia. The 2004 Elections according to international observers.
This picture is what stopped the ballot recounts in Florida shortly after it seemed that legitimate President Gore had a lead. The "citizens" started what was later called "the preppy riot". Screaming, yelling, pounding on the walls, these "outraged citizens" intimidated the polling officials to halt the court mandated recount. A closer look reveals who they really were. They were bussed and flown in at Republican lawmakers expense. Some even flew in on Tom Delay's private plane.
 
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SC Harrison

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Yeah, if you like hyperbolic, nonsensical ridiculousness.

Try this on for size:

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/sept_11/kristol.htm

The larger question with respect to Iraq, as with Afghanistan, is what happens after the combat is concluded. The Iraqi opposition lacks the military strength of the Afghan Northern Alliance; however, it claims a political legitimacy that might even be greater. And, as in Kabul but also as in the Kurdish and Shi’ite regions of Iraq in 1991, American and alliance forces will be welcomed in Baghdad as liberators. Indeed, reconstructing Iraq may prove to be a less difficult task than the challenge of building a viable state in Afghanistan.

The political, strategic and moral rewards would also be even greater. A friendly, free, and oil-producing Iraq would leave Iran isolated and Syria cowed; the Palestinians more willing to negotiate seriously with Israel; and Saudi Arabia with less leverage over policymakers here and in Europe. Removing Saddam Hussein and his henchmen from power presents a genuine opportunity – one President Bush sees clearly – to transform the political landscape of the Middle East.

I'm not sure what makes me more nauseated: the fact that Time Magazine would hire someone this delusional or the fact that many in our government still consider his advice to be helpful in fashioning policy.
 

blacbird

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Am I a neocon?

Military Hawk
Social Liberal
Fiscal Conservative

What am I?!!

Because according to original definietion of a neocon, I am a neocon.

1. What "original definition"? Did I miss something?

2. Define "Military Hawk". My contention is that the key tenet that tends to unite the people who embrace the label "neoconservative" is that they consider assertive, even aggressive, military action an early option in the set of choices of action in foreign policy. They tend to be distrustful of "diplomacy", considering it almost a pejorative term. Another term that could be applied to this set of beliefs is "adventurist". For them, patience is not a virtue.

Neocons, at least by the evidence of the actions of those self-identified as such, assert that the U.S. can establish friendly western-style democracies in other nations through military threat, and when considered necessary, through application of direct military force. As far as I can tell, that is the spine of Neoconservative beliefs. The fiscal and social stuff is deeply secondary to that, valuable largely in a Machiavellian sense if it helps gain votes and "political capital" to bolster the foreign policy agenda.

I must point out that we've largely failed to impose western-style democracies via military action since World War II, pretty much anywhere in the world. And WWII (which somebody doubtless will bring up, in relation to Germany and Japan) hardly constitutes an analogy. We didn't go to war in WWII to promote western democracy; we did it to protect our butts, against enemies who could only be defeated through total obliteration. Only once both were left in utter devastation and subjugation did we consider what needed to be done to make our place in the world safer for the future, and fortunately we had people of the quality of George Marshall, visionary enough to carry out rebuilding programs that permitted that to happen.

Our other efforts to impose "western-style democracy", or at least, regimes more favorable to us than to the bad guys (the Soviets, mainly), almost all ended badly: Iran, Vietnam, Chile. Cuba, we allowed quite happily to be run by a Mafia stooge (Batista), as long as he was "anti-Soviet"; which led directly to, uh, A HALF-CENTURY OF FIDEL CASTRO. Successes in developing more favorably democratic regimes abroad? Takes patience and, ah, DIPLOMACY, it appears: virtually all of South America, as a for instance. Eastern Europe (we didn't fire a goddam shot, you may recall; Donald Rumsfool would have had us using nukes, if he'd got the finger on the triggers). Thailand, Malaysia. Hasn't worked in Burma, yet. Maybe we oughtta bomb the schidt outofem.

I could go on, but then Robert Toy would accuse me of being a Neoliberal, and proving his hypothesis of there being an "opposite" to Neoconservative. For Robert's benefit, I will allow others to apply the standard label "liberal" to me, no "neo" prefix necessary. Especially considering my chronological success. Now, considering I'm a small businessman, and considerably "conservative" fiscally, well, paint your own label. Perhaps I'm the opposite of a dog. Or a cow. Nah, probably not the latter; I need to lose about 20 pounds.


3. So, would you consider yourself a "neocon" by those parameters?

caw
 
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1. What "original definition"? Did I miss something?

yeah...you're right..neochanboeremaisnm has been around since raeanenagan.

I'm too drunk to read the majority of posts and or last posts but I';m capable of postiong this.....

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=738166&postcount=344


http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Neoconservatism&oldid=120437886

"Historically, neoconservatives supported a militant anticommunism,

Proud of that.

tolerated more social welfare spending than was sometimes acceptable to libertarians and mainstream conservatives,

Proud of that. I like to lend a helping hand.

supported civil equality for blacks and other minorities,

Proud to support minorities.

and sympathized with a non-traditional foreign policy agenda that was less deferential to traditional conceptions of diplomacy and international law and less inclined to compromise principles even if that meant unilateral action.

Proud of that.

Indeed, domestic policy does not define neoconservatism — it is a movement founded on, and perpetuated by an aggressive approach to foreign policy, free trade, opposition to communism during the Cold War, support for Israel and Taiwan and opposition to Middle Eastern and other states that are perceived to support terrorism."

Proud, proud, proud, proud, proud.


thats;s tqahe orignaiaqnl derfin eintiuon..lbut because oif the irasg war oit has chanbcged to a whole new thing.....thank u/.


bop ,i will respond to your post otmorwowowswhen i can see stargight...\



thank tyou\
 
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SC Harrison

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"Historically, neoconservatives supported a militant anticommunism,

Proud of that.

You shouldn't be.

In many cases, the growth of Communism was fueled by our ignorant support of regimes that were almost a polar opposite of our own, rights-oriented system of government. Many Americans viewed the Latin American support of Communism as a rejection of our way of life; in reality, they didn't have a clue of what that was, because we allowed brutal dictators to wave our flag.

And the fight against Communism wasn't much different. In the case of Nicaragua, the Contras we intially supported were former members of Somoza's Guardia Nacional, a collection of sociopathic killers that left burned villages and piles of bodies wherever they went. We chose them on purpose, because we wanted the anti-Sandanista movement to be united under one banner, and we knew that terrorism was the only way to achieve that.

To make matters even worse, we sold (among other things) 1,000 TOW missiles to Iran, in violation of both International and U.S. law, in order to fund a terrorist organization. And now Ollie North has his own fucking television show glorifying war.

Not a lot to be proud of there, Billy.
 

clintl

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Can you imagine the right wing outrage if Bill Clinton had done what Reagan did (sell weapons to an enemy terrorist-sponsoring nation in exchange for a release of hostages so that he could secretly fund another terrorist organization)?

Instead, they've made a criminal like North into a hero.
 
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You shouldn't be.

Not a lot to be proud of there, Billy.

Pfffhhh!! That's one of your more ridiculous posts.

I'm very proud to be militantly anticommunism.

It's as black and white an issue as there is.

According to your logic, someone who says "They are very proud to be a Catholic" shouldn't be, because over the grand course of history bad things were done by and in the name of Catholicism.

I'm very proud to be a traditional neocon for all the reasons stated in my above posts.

Most people are traditional neocons.

As far as the "new" definition.

Neocon: Anyone who supported and/or continues to support the Iraq war.

It's laughable. But...:Shrug: Makes no difference to anything. Labels make people feel better especially when they are mentally lazy.

"Want to debate the Iraq war?"

"Nah...neocon."
 

Gary

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Can you imagine the right wing outrage if Bill Clinton had done what Reagan did (sell weapons to an enemy terrorist-sponsoring nation in exchange for a release of hostages so that he could secretly fund another terrorist organization)?

Can you imagine the outrage if a president gave multiple warhead missile technology to China in exchange for campaign contributions? Oops, I forgot...a president did, and it was ignored by nearly everyone.