A GAME OF THRONES (HBO) -- POSSIBLE SPOILERS

CrastersBabies

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Bunny, interesting predictions... but.... <<<< I don't see Jon being a dragon rider. If he can warg, then why not into a dragon? I personally see Dany, Tyrion, and Aegon. I do like the idea of Tyrion being part Targaryen. >>>>
 

Izhitsa

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Agree on Parametric's remembering as well. But, as we all know in regard to Dany in >>>>> Mereen, she pretty much bungles that up as well. She's not a ruler. She DOES have too soft a heart for that. Oh, poor slaves. Well, she frees them, alright, and they end up living in poverty and being much worse off than when they WERE slaves. Yet, she also didn't have the gall to take care of the Sons of Harpies as well, chained her dragons beneath the city because she couldn't be a "mother" to them anymore. Thank God she came back to her senses by the end of book 5. Well sort of. We'll see if she leaves the two dragons behind in Mereen or if she goes to fetch them as well. >>>>
I'm a great fan of all things political and historical, and I can't help but think that those Westerosi attempts at nation-building were put there by GRRM as a kind of comment upon, erm, certain events in recent world history... :)

Dany is a transplant from another political culture; moreover, being tutored by Viserys III couldn't have been very helpful. The fact that she pretty much bungles the Astapor-Meereen business doesn't mean that she cannot function as the ruler of Westeros, much like the disastrous rulers of Crusader states in Levant could've been (or indeed were) fair-to-middling feudal lords back home.

Oh, and regarding hereditary right and decentralization... I think there isn't a single example (EDIT. Oh, how could I forget... there was one example. It didn't do well and was partitioned. Several times.) of a large state and a major actor in world politics, whose organization differed from that of a centralized empire, between Augustus and George Washington. (Post-Glorious Revolution Britain was close, but no matter how to slice the King-Lords-Commons pie, her colonies were ruled imperially.)

Which pretty much covers any historical period Westeros can be related to.

And which is not a coincidence.
 
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Izhitsa

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Bunny, interesting predictions... but.... <<<< I don't see Jon being a dragon rider. If he can warg, then why not into a dragon? I personally see Dany, Tyrion, and Aegon. I do like the idea of Tyrion being part Targaryen. >>>>

Can dragons be warged into, them being semi-magical creatures and all that?
 

Parametric

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I don't see Aegon as a dragon rider. From a dramatic perspective, it doesn't make sense for him to be a real Targaryen. You don't introduce somebody in the fifth book who has a better claim to the throne than the heroine.
 

Camilla Delvalle

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A thing with a good epic like this is there is room for people to change. If Dany wants to become a ruler, she will have ample opportunities to take lessons from her own experience and mistakes. Theon may be a jerk, but if he survives he might learn something too.
 

DreamWeaver

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I'm with Camilla. I think Dany is doing her on-the-job training for political leadership. She doesn't have the option of learning at the knees of someone older, so she's having to use trial-and-error. Plus, she has certain ethical concerns that don't seem to particularly trouble other rulers or hopeful rulers in that world.

Spoiler <<<In upcoming episodes, Dany marrying someone she dislikes in order to try to save a political situation counterpoints Rob ignoring the political situation marry for love>>>
 

Izhitsa

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I don't see Aegon as a dragon rider. From a dramatic perspective, it doesn't make sense for him to be a real Targaryen. You don't introduce somebody in the fifth book who has a better claim to the throne than the heroine.
Agreed, but I don't think he is a pure fake either. Some Blackfyre descendant through the female line, perhaps.

Also I think that Jon, Targaryen or no, might well become the Night's King 2.0 instead of a dragon rider.
 

Mharvey

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BTW, just wanna say, I'm so pissed that I'm not gonna get to see another episode for 6 months or so.

Oh yes, and the amount of demotivators this particular image will generate was worth the price of the entire series.

Off the top of my head:

Motivational Speaking
The only difference between 20 and 500 is a smack in the head.
 

thothguard51

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When Dani had her dream vision in the House of the Undying, (not found in the books), she started at the gate in the Wall leading to the North. Then she went to Kingslanding and the Hall of the Iron Throne. She never sat on the Iron Throne and the Hall looked demolished. There was also the fact that it was snowing.

I think this shows Dani will reach Kings Landing with her Dragons, but she may not be the one who sits on the Iron Throne. So who will sit on the Iron Throne?

I also tend to agree with Parametric, you don't introduce someone in the Fifth Book that has the possibility of Usurping the the story line of the previous books at this point.

Dani, Tyrion and Possibly Jon all have been mentioned as possible candidates for the Iron Throne, but if we go by line of succession, Tyrion is the Older, followed by Dani and then Jon. Something to think about...
 

Parametric

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Dani, Tyrion and Possibly Jon all have been mentioned as possible candidates for the Iron Throne, but if we go by line of succession, Tyrion is the Older, followed by Dani and then Jon. Something to think about...

If you subscribe to the theories, then Jon has the best claim, because he is the legitimate son of the heir to the throne, Rhaegar. He's in the direct line of succession. Danaerys is the sister of Rhaegar, so only has a claim if Rhaegar has no heirs. And Tyrion has no claim at all because he's a bastard. Plus he's a dwarf which I think in practical terms gives him absolutely zero chance of taking the Iron Throne.
 

thothguard51

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Proving Jon is a legitimate heir is going to be rather difficult with Ned gone. Possible spoiler>>> didn't the old Master on the Wall, who is a Taragaryn, know who Jon was and sort of hint at it to Jon in one of the books? <<<
 

Parametric

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There is one person still alive who was with Ned at the Tower of Joy: Howland Reed. He would know for sure what happened with Lyanna.
 

CrastersBabies

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On Dany's lack of rulership skillz . . . >>>> At times, I agree with Jorah. Dany does have a tender heart. She made mistake after mistake in Mereen. She could not make the tough decisions when she needed to. She wanted to save her people, but did not want to get her hands dirty doing it. Now, with Tyrion at her side, she would, IMHO, be unstoppable. I see her as more of a general or warrior than I do a leader, but, as someone else pointed out, there is some on-the-job-training that has gone on, so I do think she IS learning from her mistakes. But, she can't do it alone. Jorah wasn't the right fit for her in terms of an adviser. Tyrion, on the other hand. Can you imagine? And, given that Varys is working with the Targaryens, that's a mix that can't be stopped. All we saw her do in a Dance with Dragons (for 3/4 of the book) was wading in her little fish pools, sitting on silken pillows while she "held court," wandering around on her terrace and pining over some stupid mercenary while her "babies" were chained up beneath the city. Meanwhile, Drogon's eating children and terrorizing the countryside. Not "mother of the year" if you ask me, but again, she learned her lesson.

Jon Snow, on the other hand, made pretty bad mistakes as well as Lord Commander at the Wall, but his punishment for those mistakes was far worse than Dany's.
>>>>

On Dragons and riders >>>> Why not warg into a dragon. You have to know that's coming. At attempt, anyway. If Jon or Arya can't do it, Bran certainly can. Direwolves are, imho, magical in a sense, or at the very least unusual in that they seem to have a connection to the supernatural. Jon, I just don't see as a rider. I may be wrong. He has his connection to his "familiar" (Ghost), and I don't see why Martin would give him another one. Bran can take on multiple "warg suits" simply because of his abilities. He has already warged into Hodor, so we know he's capable of expanding.

I do think the Targaryen kid is legit. But, I don't think he's exactly what he appears to be. It could be he's iced right away, (a flash in the pan). Or, it could be he's the goods. We haven't been in the east much with the exception of Dany, so who knows what else is going on over there? Tyrion believes it. I do as well. I just don't know if he'll amount to much.

And Dany has more right to the throne than Aegon. Dany is a daughter of the Mad King. Aegon was the mad king's grandson. So, Rhaegar had first dibs and Robert axed him at the Trident. Viserys had 2nd dibs. Now, it's on Dany as the only surviving child of the King Aerys. If I remember, Aegon's group were considering marrying Aegon to Dany to reunite the bloodlines, or, a character had mentioned it. But, in the end, Aegon will have Dany as an obstacle if he wants the throne and SHE wants to stand in his way.
>>>

In the end, this kind of speculation always gets me giddy. I love hearing other theories!

Parametric, on the Tower of Joy, that HAS to come out someday, but, I also think others knew. I think that Maester Aemon at the Wall knew something as well. Didn't he tell Samwell something before . . . <<< he passed away? >>>

Wasn't Aemon Maester to House Targaryen? Or was he always at the wall? I'm just wondering who . . . >>> was there when Lyanna gave birth. Certainly there was a Maester or midwife present? >>>
 
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Parametric

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Why would Dany take precedence over a legitimate heir of Rhaegar? The succession would pass directly from Aerys to Rhaegar to Aegon. Father to son to grandson. If Robb had a son and Robb died, his son would be the heir to Winterfell, not Bran.
 

CrastersBabies

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Parametric said:

>>>>Why would Dany take precedence over a legitimate heir of Rhaegar? The succession would pass directly from Aerys to Rhaegar to Aegon. Father to son to grandson. If Robb had a son and Robb died, his son would be the heir to Winterfell, not Bran.>>>>

Ahh, you're absolutely right. Not sure what I was thinking. But, I think one could argue that both have a decent claim, hence why marriage between them was suggested.
 

thothguard51

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Maester Aemon at the Wall >>> If I remember right, he is a Targaryan and he told Jon Snow. <<<
 

Parametric

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I love the idea of Dany and Aegon marrying. What a Targaryen solution. :tongue
 

CrastersBabies

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LOL. Those silly Targaryens. I guess breeding in the crazy never gets old. :)
 

CrastersBabies

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I need an antacid after reading that last post....
 

Izhitsa

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On Dragons and riders >>>> Why not warg into a dragon. You have to know that's coming. At attempt, anyway. ... >>>
Every warg worth of his salt would've tried to seize control over Balerion. Somehow I think they didn't -- or didn't live to tell the tale.

Of course, the whole controlling dragons thing is a plot point to be revealed (hopefully soon).
 

CrastersBabies

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Every warg worth of his salt would've tried to seize control over Balerion. Somehow I think they didn't -- or didn't live to tell the tale.

Of course, the whole controlling dragons thing is a plot point to be revealed (hopefully soon).

Izh, I wasn't sure the dragons got that far north? I don't know. My lore on that isn't so hot. But, yeah, I think it's probably been attempted in the past, probably not with much success. :)
 

Izhitsa

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Izh, I wasn't sure the dragons got that far north? I don't know. My lore on that isn't so hot. But, yeah, I think it's probably been attempted in the past, probably not with much success. :)
Yeah. Aegon needn't fly up north during his conquest, but...

Firstly, warging isn't a purely Northern thing -- Bloodraven is a living (OK, undead :)) proof that there are warging genes lurking around genomes of old families from the Riverlands. Secondly, IIRC Aegon and his sisters gave the King in the North and his host an 'air show' in order to compel submission. Any warg among the Northerners could've tried. (Incidentally, I bet King Loren of the Rock would've promised a yearly income from his gold mines to the best Northern warg to go south and mess with Balerion's controls. :)). Thirdly, many years after the conquest King Jaehaerys I took six dragons with him on a visit to the North and the Wall.
 

BunnyMaz

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Maybe the key thing is warg + Targaryen blood? In which case
Jon FTW!

AFAIK Tyrion
has shown exactly zero signs of being a warg, and I'm not sure where the theory of his having Targaryen blood comes from...
does anyone know?