The Old Neverending PublishAmerica Thread (Publish America)

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astonwest

Re: tick... tick...

www.publishamerica.com/cg...n/9315.htm

It's gone...

I'm actually a little bit surprised...the Support Team may have itchy trigger fingers...usually, you'll see one of these "look what someone told me about my book" posts, and then they'll let it stay on, because everyone is jumping on trying to form a lynch mob, and proclaiming the perfection of PA...

Must have had others come on and complain about lack of editing...I guess...
 

bluwinteryfox

Re: tick... tick...

I saved the file because of what one woman said. Lo and behold just that portion of the thread was missing when I went back. And yes another fellow did mention how many errors he had.

During dinner my son asked me if I was going to add to that thread and mention how many errors PA put into my manuscript. Can't do that now. I'm so unhappy. :x

Me thinks the natives are becoming very restless.
 

DaveKuzminski

Re: tick... tick...

I'm surprised that PublishAmerica had a convention knowing that they can't delete the mouths of anyone who might ask those questions in the presence of other authors. Maybe that convention is why so many are now stepping forward. They had a chance to compare notes and discover that they're not getting a good deal at all.
 

HapiSofi

Re: unsolicited

Emeraldcite, don't bother to argue or remonstrate with him. These guys only give the appearance of interactivity. For them, this board isn't a conversation. It's a target of opportunity.

The only thing that works with comment spammers is to delete their messages as quickly as possible, and if possible ban them from posting further. Letting them stay up demonstrates that the site is a profitable target, and thus encourages more comment spam.
 

emeraldcite

re hapi

<quote>Emeraldcite, don't bother to argue or remonstrate with him. These guys only give the appearance of interactivity. For them, this board isn't a conversation. It's a target of opportunity. </quote>


you're exactly right. i think it was more me letting off steam than any real functionality. wish i could delete the spam, but my powers of editing only work in novels and short fiction. just got rid of some spam there a little while ago. so annoying.
 

James D Macdonald

Selling Books

It strikes me that there are two kinds of authors at PA:

First are the ones who want to sell books and have readers. These include the guy who wrote the book about cats and dogs. The ones who want to be authors soon get discouraged/disillusioned, then banned, then move on to other things. (But not before selling their 75 books. Look at that guy who sent 60 copies to libraries. If he sells just fifteen more copies (or buys them himself) he'll have paid his vanity press fee. Doesn't make any difference to PA whether he's happy or sad, it's all money.)

Second are the ones who want to B*E* A*U*T*H*O*R*S*!!!
They're playing a fantasy role-playing game. It doesn't matter to them that every book they sell is costing them money -- it's all about being a Real Live Author (high prestige! the envy of all your friends! a hometown celebrity!) not having readers or making a living at this racket. They'll shell out all kinds of cash in order to sit behind a table for hours and sell one or maybe two books, because it makes them Feel Like an Author!

It's an ego thing. And if it makes them happy, who's to say they aren't getting their money's worth?
 

HapiSofi

Re: re hapi

Who's the local deity in charge of slaughtering malfeasants?
 

Ed Williams 3

Check this out....

...its posted on the PA boards, and I know it will be gone before you know it - wild!

tiffdog97

3/10/2004
01:36:09
Subject: My email correspondance with PA


Message:
This is a real eye opener. As authors published by this company, you need to read my following e-mail correspondance with PA. Please post replies as soon as possible, as the last time I posted on this subject, my post was promptly removed by the PA website. If company policy is not changed to remedy this current situation, and a law suit ensues, the more of us that band together, the greater our chances that we can hit this company where it hurts. I already have an attorney who is willing to represent other PA authors in this matter and represent us as a group. Since I am certain that they will remove my post again, please feel free to e-mail me directly at [email protected] Here are the e-mails:

To whom it may concern:

My name is Roger L. Welton, DVM, author of "Canine and Feline 101: A Complete Guide for Selecting, Training, and Caring for Dogs and Cats." I have worked very hard getting local promotion with good results. On my latest campaign, I had the local newspaper in the municipality that I grew up (with 60,000 plus readers), do a full page article about me and my book. This was a huge step in the right direction. I was extremely disappointed,
however, when I was recently contacted by several old acquaintances,friends, and family, all indicating that they were unable to purchase the book from major book sellers like Barnes and Noble, B Dalton's, and Waldenbooks; even by special ordering with the ISBN number. The reason that was given in every case is that there were no books in distributor
warehouses in stock to order.

I have accepted the fact that Publish America provides its first time authors with zero promotional budget, and does nothing to help promote the author's book, besides sending book announcements to people whose names are provided by the author. I have also accepted the fact that we, as authors,carry all financial and manual responsibility for getting our books noticed and sold, even though we get only 8% of the revenue. However, when I work rigorously, mailing book copies and letters to countless media sources,only to have my efforts made useless by Publish America not making my book available to major book sellers, I cannot help but feel extremely disappointed and even angry.

When I first contacted the local Barnes and Noble where I live and was told by the manager that they do not carry any non-returnable titles (and therefore will not carry my book), I e-mailed author support concerned and disappointed. I was placated with a generic song and dance e-mail saying that, not all book store managers are created equal, and that I should not be deterred by the statements of just one manager. I will not accept such an e-mail again, since this a a real problem that I am now appreciating from MULTIPLE book sellers, based on reports from many who have tried to buy my
book.

If I do not receive a satisfactory explanation and solution to this
problem, I will pull the plug on all promotional attempts, as I will not have my time and money wasted any further.

Sincerely,

Roger L. Welton, DVM
Author - Canine and Feline 101: A Complete Guide for Selecting,
Training,and Caring for Dogs and Cats.


Dear Mr. Welton,
>
> Unfortunately, that is a problem a lot of our authors are running
> into.There are a few ways to get around this however. You can have
> bookstorescarry your book on a consignment basis, or a bookstore
> can have customers
> pre-pay before they order your book. If I can be of any further
> help please
> do not hesitate to ask.
>
> Thank You,
> Jessica
> Author Support Team
> [email protected]

Dear Jessica:

Let me tell you the problem with your solution. First, the author discount that you provide us with is only 30%, but we also pay for shipping. All bookstores that I have discussed consignment selling with, keep 50% of the retail, leaving the author with a negative profit when it is all said and done, since you do not pay royalties on author purchased books.

Second, major book sellers do not sell on consignment, period. I know, I've asked.

Finally, I am an author, not a book distributor. It is the respopnsibility of the publisher to make the book available to book sellers, NOT THE AUTHOR. I do not have the money, time, or resources to personally stock the nations book stores with my book.

Basically, there is absolutely no benefit to getting published with Publish America. It is actually a liability. Had I self published, I would have to personally make the book available, fund and work my own promotion just like my current situation; but at least I would make 80% of the profit for all my work.

Your company is a scam, preying on honest authors that dream of getting their work published. You tell us to promote like crazy, send copies of the book to all kinds of media, making a nice profit on all the books WE PERSONALLY BUY!!!!!!! Then, after we are successful in our promotion and people want to buy the book, they can't because you don't make it available to book sellers.

And then when I call you out on the matter, all that you can reply is that this is a common problem that PA authors encounter!!!!!!!!!!! Your solution is for me to purchase more books from you, and personally stock all the stores myself - AT NEGATIVE PROFIT once the math adds up.

As of right now, my promotion STOPS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I will not line your pockets, buying and sending my books to media, so that people who subsequently want it will be told by book sellers that they can't even order it. I want a reply to this email from one of the higher up executives of your company. If a reasonable solution is not offered, the e-mail correspondence stops. The next contact we have will be through my attorney. Incidently, on his advice, I am keeping a record of all of our correspondance.

Sincerely,

Roger L. Welton, DVM
Author, Canine and Feline 101

P.S. I liked how your website promptly removed my post, detailing my last e-mail to your company. I guess freedom of expression does not apply with Publish America when they are exposed for the fraud that they are.








LAdams

3/10/2004
03:39:38


RE: My email correspondance with PA


Message:
This should be between you and PA privately.
 

astonwest

Re: Check this out....

Looking into my crystal ball, I foresee the post being removed, and the author banned...

Some notes:

"All bookstores that I have discussed consignment selling with, keep 50% of the retail, leaving the author with a negative profit when it is all said and done, since you do not pay royalties on author purchased books."

Weird...all bookstores I've ever discussed consignments with, it's generally been a 60-40 split (40 for the store)...You still end up with a negative profit (unless you've purchased at a special rate (and gotten in on a free shipping period)).

"Second, major book sellers do not sell on consignment, period. I know, I've asked."

I can vouch for this...none of the majors I've ever talked to have offered consignment as an option...

Something he didn't mention, but should be for the record...what kinds of customers are going to run into the store and pre-pay for a book they've never seen? They're either going to be personally affiliated with the author (friends and family), or your book is just so darn good they have to have it...and which do we figure in the case of these books?

*****

On a personal note, I have to wonder if this person didn't sign up a book just for the purpose of picking a fight with PA on their board...definitely has that sort of a ring to it...with all the bits and pieces about what "real publishers" do, and the matter of being "an author, not a book distributor", it's almost like they were navigating around the various writing sites before signing on...either that, or they've been published by a "real publisher" before, and know all this stuff, which would make one wonder why they'd signed on with PA, knowing all this info...strange...

I laughed out loud when I saw the responding post...
"This should be between you and PA privately."

HAHAHAHA

If that had simply been between the author and PA privately, the person would have been banned from their board before even getting in their shot...at least this way, the message gets preserved over here... :p

Big Daddy West
:hat
 

FM St George

Re: Check this out....

well, he was probably suckered in like the rest of us - you have to admit, PA is pretty slick in making you THINK that you'll be seeing your book in the local Barnes and Noble...

I"m not sure if he has a leg to stand on legally, but it's nice to see someone with balls on the forum - I'm sure HB and the rest of the bullies will be oot and aboot soon, but still...

who wants to invite him over here?

:D
 

FM St George

Re: Check this out....

btw, the post was gone before I even posted the above note - I did send him an email telling him we were here and hoping that he'd visit...

yes, I'm THAT nice.

:p

it's good to see the PA bullies whetting their knives more than ever - I think that there's a lot more questions coming up when people actually SEE their royalty checks and the dismal amounts resulting from all their hard work.

when you see something like 62 cents a book coming to you because some bookstore took pity on you and ordered 10 at the retail discount of 7.77... you realise that the royalty ain't on the list price, etc etc etc... and suddenly that hundred you dropped on bookmarks is so much larger now...

still, there's a certain place in hell for all those PA employees willingly going along with this barely-legal scam...
 

RealityChuck

Re: Check this out....

it's good to see the PA bullies whetting their knives more than ever - I think that there's a lot more questions coming up when people actually SEE their royalty checks and the dismal amounts resulting from all their hard work.
Maybe, maybe not.

I visited a PA author web page where he was bragging about a $9.06 royalty check and saying all it cost him was the marketing expenses.

Which, of course, he didn't enumerate.
 

AC Crispin

PA Authors - Put Your Money Where Your Mouth Is

Several months ago, I asked Victoria Strauss to post the contact information for the Maryland Attorney General's office. At that time, when I checked, there had been only ONE, count 'em ONE complaint received by them regarding Publish America's shenanigans.

That complaint was made by Mark, the fellow who has since been banned.

My question: If you are so angry, why haven't you actually gone ahead and made an official complaint?

Why?

Just FYI, here's a repeat of the information Victoria posted.

The telephone number for the Attorney General of Maryland is:
(410) 576-6300.

I was told email is NOT going to make the biggest impression. Hardcopy letters do better. If you get no satisfaction from your initial letter, I would write another, stronger letter, and in that one I'd cc: my congressperson and senator, and maybe John Ashcroft.

Office of Attorney General
200 St. Paul Pl.
Baltimore, MD 21202

Okay, just my two cents, FWIW.

-Ann C. Crispin
 

FM St George

Re: PA Authors - Put Your Money Where Your Mouth Is

hmm... how precisely would you suggest we word it however - I'd hate to come off sounding like a raving lunatic upset 'cause my book hadn't been the next Harry Potter, etc...

let's put our collective heads together and list point by point the actual complaints we can lay out in our letters to the AG without dropping into sarcasm and blathering rhetoric...
 

James D Macdonald

Re: PA Authors - Put Your Money Where Your Mouth Is

I'd think "deceptive claims and business practices," starting with "We're a tradtional publisher" would be the way to go.

Better might be for a lawyer trained in such things to read the PA site, read this and other message boards, and make a determination. I'm not a lawyer, and don't play one on TV.

Do remember to get screenshots of PA's pages -- it takes about one second to make a statement on a web page vanish as if it had never been.
 

DaveKuzminski

If you miss that screen shot in time

Check the search page caches at Google, Dogpile, and others. They often have an old page stored that's coming up as a 404. Get that on screen and then do your save.
 

HapiSofi

Re: PA Authors - Put Your Money Where Your Mouth Is

Deliberate deception. They say over and over again that they'll get your book into bookstores, which is one of their major attractions as far as writers are concerned; but they don't, and they know they don't. They don't even try, and they won't lift a finger to help authors get bookstore placement (I'm thinking of times when the author desperately needs to get books shipped now, not a couple of months from now) when the author's the one doing all the work.

How do we know this is deliberate? The most blatant piece of evidence is that the fastest and surest way to get your messages deleted, and yourself banned from the PA message boards, is to talk about their lack of bookstore placement. No matter how apologetic or placatory the poster's tone, the message vanishes.

What else can we judge from this? That PA knows bookstore placement is a nontrivial consideration for writers thinking of submitting manuscripts to them. They're within their rights to use the PA boards as a customer-generated sales tool, and delete material they think is too critical of PA. But when posts about one subject are deleted more quickly, ruthlessly, and inflexibly than posts about any other subject, PA is acknowledging that that subject is important to their potential customers.

We also know that they must be aware that lack of bookstore placement is a real problem for many of their authors. If you delete a post on a particular subject, but you don't delete the posts around it, and you consistently delete posts on that subject, it necessarily follows that you've read that post and grasped its content. PA is therefore unable to claim that they're unaware that bookstores won't take their books. They've heard about it repeatedly, and registered their awareness by deleting those messages.

They incriminate themselves in other ways. I've seen PA staffers defend the proposition that PA gets bookstore placement by describing a trip to a big bookstore close to PA headquarters, where they found a half-dozen copies total of three or four PA titles. Given that PA has published c. 7,000 titles now, you couldn't ask for better evidence that they don't get bookstore placement -- there should be hundreds, even thousands of copies of PA books at that store.

I'd like to see PA and HB Marcus subpoenaed for information on the nature of their relationship. HBM has been on the PA boards from the beginning, which is a great rarity. (Most of their active posters are authors who're either waiting for their books to come out, or have recently been published. Few are still posting more than a year after they started.) HBM is also the only PA author I know of who gets Amazon reviews that are explicitly by Willem Meiners, who's one of the people who runs PA. He's been a relentless booster of PA in spite of the very poor sales performance of his PA-published books, on Amazon and elsewhere.

HBM puts a large amount of time -- and a consistent amount of time -- into patrolling the PA message boards (plus occasional sockpuppet forays into other venues). He's a relentless PA booster, and flames, bullies, mocks, and generally makes life miserable for even mild nay-sayers. He propagates a fairly consistent party line, never gets disciplined, and never appears hesitant about whether what he says will be displeasing to PA. The falsehoods he creates on PA's behalf are artful.

I've known a number of online jerks of HBM's stripe. What I've never known is one who was such a loyal and enthusiastic booster of some cause that he consistently put in large numbers of hours, and put in a consistent performance, defending their fair name and acting as prime enforcer on their own message boards.

What am I getting at here? I believe that what behaves like staff is probably staff. I think HB Marcus is the deniable voice of PublishAmerica, and that his job is to conduct heavy-handed enforcement, and promulgate disinformation, in ways PA doesn't want to be liable for doing.
 

astonwest

Re: tick... tick... (More on Editing)

www.publishamerica.com/cg...n/9322.htm

This one has stayed up for a little while...wonder how long it will last (I'm guessing until a few more folks comment on the lack of editing, and don't add redeeming remarks about PA to their complaint)...

Big Daddy West
:hat
 

emeraldcite

Re: tick... tick... (More on Editing)

9:12. the post is gone. I wonder if someone trolls these boards and then removes the post we link to. not all of them, of course, but we may be helping patrol the boards as well in a manner. this is no reason to stop. eventually people will really start to notice that things are yanked, not just occasionally, but on a daily basis. we notice.
 

astonwest

Re: tick... tick... (More on Editing)

Fortutunately, I did copy it down for posterity (though unfortunately, some of the more (apparently) volatile posts were made after I linked to it)...but it was basically the same old song and dance...

--The author is responsible for all editing...

--PA really does hire editors (although I maintain what walks and quacks like a duck is a duck, not a chicken)...

--Everyone should hire an editor...

There was the one soul who commented that his book was not edited at all (which prompted me to link to the now-dead thread)...and of course, can't have a complaint without the opposite reaction thereafter...

oh well...

I'd bet policing this board for threads to pull is standard operating procedure...along with filling their list of malcontents (to watch them for banishable actions, such as having links to sites such as this one and/or Mindsight).
 

FM St George

can you say "paranoid"?

www.publishamerica.com/cg...e/2692.htm

here's a good laugh - the author is concerned that her true crime book is being discussed from another angle on another bulletin board and suddenly HB's in there denouncing other PA authors who post on other boards... in other words, he didn't really read the post; he just leapt to the conclusion that every other board is full of PA authors who are "backstabbing" PA...

it's a hoot!
 

DaveKuzminski

I wonder who? No, I don't.

Here's one post from the other forum:

HBMarcus

3/10/2004
23:38:21

H. B. Marcus
CRISPY
The Joe Schmoe Show
RE: The fight is heating up ...


Message:
marti, people have blown off the other boards to the point where they're a joke to the general public.

I realize that one of our own pirates posts elsewhere to be pals with the regulars on another site. This may add a hint of legitimacy to their tirade to some newbies, but not when you consider loyalty versus aquaintances, I think you know where they'll end up.

So...they can spew all the crap they want and "think for themselves"...like how to crawl away from the 'two-faced' label: "If they're stabbing that back, when is mine next?" And from there it breaks down into a few sub-cultures of stupidity.

Blow it off. Idiots tire easily.

***end of quoted message***

Of course, HB speaks from experience with his last statement.
 

FM St George

hmm... another escapee, it seems...

Author Diana Hignutt has just signed a deal with Lake Forest, CA based Behler Publications, to publish her second novel, EMPRESS OF CLOUDS. The book should be released by mid 2004. Diana expects to have along and mutually beneficial relationship with Behler, and is very excited about this match-up. EMPRESS OF CLOUDS is the long awaited sequel to MOONSWORD.

from the Authors Den website...

don't know much about this other publisher, but obviously she's decided to not stay with PublishAmerica despite all the great "support" they've given her...

ooh... wonder how this'll sit with the rabid PAvidians over there when they find out...
 

James D Macdonald

Re: hmm... another escapee, it seems...

<a href="http://www.behlerpublications.com/" target="_new">Behler Publications</a> appears to be a start-up PoD. Four titles; one in print the rest forthcoming (none listed at Amazon). They claim they have a return policy.

Too early to tell if they actually get bookstore distribution.

Diana would be well advised to shoot high rather than low: Start submitting to the big traditional houses rather than the small-to-micro and PoD presses.
 

vstrauss

Re: hmm... another escapee, it seems...

According to a Whois search, the domain server for Behler Publications is Paulnorwood.net, and the administrative contact is Paul Norwood. Mr. Norwood is a web developer and PA author, and runs the e-zine that a group of PA authors started up a few months ago. Which I guess explains why all of Behler's titles right now are from PA authors.

I'm casting no aspersions, by the way. Perhaps the knowledge these folks have gained from their PA experience will help them to do a better job of selecting, marketing and distributing their books, and give their authors a chance of being noticed.

- Victoria
 
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