Multiple POV characters - which to use for the sex scenes??

Reziac · Jan 13, 2013

Slopping water on the hapless floor, they are... will no one think of the mops?
No, no, stop thinking of doing that with the mop!!

But to the nominal question, I don't see a problem with all the sex scenes being from one POV, especially if she's the subplot; in fact I'm guessing it feels natural and right and balanced. No doubt there are certain types of scenes that just naturally fall into his head as well.

Unfortunately he falls asleep afterwards (so MALE! lol. But significance here is that he wants to do post coital schnuggling with her, whereas he kicks the others out when he's finished) and she leaves before he wakes up. Afterards he determines not to see her for a while because instead of 'getting it out of his system' as he intended, its just made it worse.

Seems to me here's good opportunity for her to cogitate on that schnuggling bit, if she knows he usually just kicks 'em out.

VoireyLinger · Jan 13, 2013

Kallithrix said:
Hmm. I think they're both important, but for her this romance is kinda the main plot, whereas to him its a subplot. He has other things to deal with in the story, and his feelings for her are just a distraction - the significance being that they distract him so much he drops the ball in the main plot

hmmm.

But who has the most to gain or lose IN THAT MOMENT. Romance, be it plot or subplot, is a back and forth thing. She might be taking a chance because she doesn't think he loves her. He might be coming to the realization that, yeah, this is more than a fling. She knows it's their last time together. The balance might go back and forth through the story, but in that moment, one of them has a bigger chunk of the story.

Choosing the POV character isn't about big picture. It's about who owns the scene and why.

CrastersBabies · Jan 13, 2013

Kall, okay first off I didn't notice your avatar until now. Mama! Drogo. Yes.

Anyway, I totally get where you are coming from now. Have you checked out the erotica sections on this board? They might have a thread dedicated to this.

For me, I just try to get into the head of what the guy wants. Sure, there's the whole, "Men only think with their privates" deal, but that's generalizing a bit too much imho.

What does this guy get out of the scene? Out of having sex? Is it just for pleasure or is there more at stake? Men probably want the same thing women do during sex--to feel good in their nether-regions and to connect in some way (whether it's YA HOO fun, fling sex or making love).

Sonsofthepharaohs · Jan 13, 2013

Ok guys, thanks for all your inpit and suggestions - some great comments here.

I was starting to have a niggling suspicion that the scene might be more important from his perspective, and I think this discussion has confirmed that in my mind. The stakes in this romance have subtly switched to him over the course of the rewrite, so I think his perspective can no longer be ignored.

As I said, he's just seen her for the first time in a week and the force of his reaction takes him by surprise. He knows he is being foolish getting so bent out of shape over a girl, and part of the reason he calls her to his room is to get it out of his system.

The first part of the scene is from her POV, because at that moment she's scared, wondering if he's going to beat her for disobeying him, and I think that's the more interesting perspective.

After she realises he isn't going to punish her, there's a scene break, and I think when we come back it would be more interesting to see his POV. Now that he's got over his anger, he's back to his problem of 'what do I do about my feelings for this girl that are starting to affect my professional conduct?' That's the more interesting issue I think.

So, I think I need to knuckle down and write that scene from his POV.

*deep breath*

Reziac · Jan 13, 2013

Kallithrix said:
The first part of the scene is from her POV, because at that moment she's scared, wondering if he's going to beat her for disobeying him, and I think that's the more interesting perspective.

After she realises he isn't going to punish her, there's a scene break, and I think when we come back it would be more interesting to see his POV. Now that he's got over his anger, he's back to his problem of 'what do I do about my feelings for this girl that are starting to affect my professional conduct?' That's the more interesting issue I think.

So, I think I need to knuckle down and write that scene from his POV.

Now that you put it that way -- I think you're right! Good place to scene-break, indeed.

katci13 · Jan 13, 2013

Kallithrix said:
So, I think I need to knuckle down and write that scene from his POV.

*deep breath*

Go for it! And blush away. ^_^ When I started writing scenes like this I giggled a lot. I was alone so it was okay. It's get more fun the more you do it. And when you push yourself like this, it does GREAT things for your writing. You'll be so proud of yourself. ^_^

Dreity · Jan 13, 2013

Kallithrix said:
Who says they do it on a bed? The first part of this scene takes place in the bath

Something you could play around with, or maybe you already have (you don't say how much of the fun starts in the bath, so I don't know), but water is not as good a lubricant as one might think. The first time is nerve-wracking enough when it's on a bed missionary style, I can imagine how a young virgin would react when she discovers the reality of certain mechanics of Tab A in Slot B. Poor dude has probably had so many experienced chicks in the bath he might not realize right away how different it is for a girl who doesn't know what to expect. His response -might- help you find the balance between dawg and dork. Or, you know, it could make things much worse, in which case you should ignore me. :tongue

Sonsofthepharaohs · Jan 13, 2013

Dreity said:
Something you could play around with, or maybe you already have (you don't say how much of the fun starts in the bath, so I don't know), but water is not as good a lubricant as one might think. The first time is nerve-wracking enough when it's on a bed missionary style, I can imagine how a young virgin would react when she discovers the reality of certain mechanics of Tab A in Slot B. Poor dude has probably had so many experienced chicks in the bath he might not realize right away how different it is for a girl who doesn't know what to expect. His response -might- help you find the balance between dawg and dork. Or, you know, it could make things much worse, in which case you should ignore me.

Hehehe, dawg and dork... not sure if one of those is supposed to be positive?

Not much happens in the bath - he chucks her in a cold bath as punishment, because the only thing she was wearing at the banquet was some strategically placed body paint, and he says it makes her look like a whore (whores and exotic dancers in ancient Egypt often had body tattoos). He obviously gets covered in paint too so gets in with her (don't worry, he orders warm water first

)

The actual bathing scene may be cut - it was supposed to be a mirror scene to an earlier one where she bathes him after he's spent all day putting out a fire. In this one, he washes her. It's more intimate than sexy, where she learns to be comfortable with him touching her body. They've not had much of a physical relationship up til now, just a few kisses and she's seen him naked, but tonight was the first time he'd ever seen her in the buff (hence him being angry at the banquet).

I dunno. This scene is an important watershed in their relationship, but I don't want to spend too long on it so that it derails the pace of the main plot. I could literally spend thousands of words on the sexual tension between these two

Dreity · Jan 13, 2013

I don't think anyone really wants to be a dawg anymore, and being a dork was always bad.

I sincerely commiserate with your struggles. I'm so glad I have another book or two before I play around with sexual tension. It's just so much fun, but I loathe the Romantic Plot Tumor. I'll spare you the link since you're supposed to be working. :evil

Sonsofthepharaohs · Jan 13, 2013

Dreity said:
I sincerely commiserate with your struggles. I'm so glad I have another book or two before I play around with sexual tension. It's just so much fun, but I loathe the Romantic Plot Tumor. I'll spare you the link since you're supposed to be working.

GIVE ME THE LINK - NOW!!!

(please)

Dreity · Jan 13, 2013

Romantic Plot Tumor

I'm such an enabler.

Stacia Kane · Jan 13, 2013

Kallithrix said:
Oooooh, this is dangerous territory... if I do that I may end up exposing the entire scene as wish fulfillment fantasy, lol

That's...really not what I meant.

But let's be honest here. To some extent, you ARE writing a wish-fulfillment fantasy, if you're writing a sex scene intended to arouse your reader as well as advancing story, plot, and character. Nobody is turned on by reading a sex scene from the POV of a selfish dick who might just as well be fucking a bowlful of mud.

There's nothing wrong with adding some fantasy to your sex scene. In fact, it's better to do so, to some extent. (Again, if the intent is at least partially to arouse your reader; if the purpose of your scene is to show everybody that the character is a selfish dick, or to examine his sexual disfunction or his emotional trauma, or to show that he's a misogynist, or can only get off if he thinks about dead cats, then obviously you don't want to add anything romantic or even particularly sexy.) You're writing a romantic subplot. Presumably you want your readers to be emotionally invested in this subplot. So why in the world is "wish fulfillment fantasy" a bad thing here?

I don't think my mental state in these situations is a very good template for a naive, inexperienced 16 year old girl. I'm probably more like the jaded, selfish and over sexed MMC, LOL

So what? Does that mean you don't want a man you have feelings for to see or think of you a certain way when you're in bed with him? Being naive or jaded doesn't matter. What matters is that--I assume--you have at least once in your life been to bed with someone you liked, and wanted him to like you and see or think of you a certain way.

Part of your job as a writer is to imagine things you haven't experienced and remember things you have. Were you never naive or inexperienced? Have you never been with a man who made you feel vulnerable? Have you never been to bed the first time with someone and really wanted it to go well, never hoped that as he touched you he was thinking things like "Wow, she is gorgeous," or "I can't believe she's letting me do this?"

Men do actually think these things. It's only brainless wish-fulfillment fantasy if you have a character with a single-digit IQ who speaks in monosyllabic grunts thinking things like "My god, this exquisite flower is transporting me on a sea of transcendent delight with her ravishing delectable flesh." That's not believable. An average guy thinking "Shit, this is awesome" is believable. An average guy bedding an inexperienced virgin and thinking "Go slow, you don't want to hurt her," is also believable.

Men are not automatons. Men want to love and be loved just like women do. Men want their partners to enjoy the sex they're having just like women do; in fact, I would say that's an even bigger deal for men, since the onus is still more on men--seemingly, as in there seems to be more a belief that the man is in control of how good the experience is--to be good in bed, to make sure their partner is satisfied. Sometimes, even, men actually want sex to mean something; maybe not all the time, but I think it would be difficult to find a man capable of love who has never been with a woman and wanted it to be more than just a quick fuck.

But I seriously would not know what to do with an inexperienced partner. EEK! I think I'd get my coat and finish up at home

You'd be missing out. One of my boyfriends was a virgin. That was pretty awesome. And I got to see firsthand how much at least one man wanted to learn, and wanted to please not just A woman, but HIS woman. How much that mattered.

Honestly, I don't think I've ever been with a man who didn't want it to be a good experience for me too, and I've had my fair share of both one-night stands and partners in general (we're not talking single digits here).

Ya see, if I focus on all that, putting myself in a guy's head thinking about a girl, I start to wonder if I'm a lesbian... or rather whether my mum will think I am when she reads it!

I'm only partly kidding.

Really? I'd think I was doing a good job putting myself into my character's head and POV, and understanding him, and conveying the scene through his eyes, the way a writer should. (I'm also not sure what's wrong with being a lesbian, but whatever.)

If it helps, a few years ago I wrote a whole blog series on writing sex scenes (Go to page 3, and start at the bottom, reading up.) There are a lot of suggestions in there for making yourself more comfortable with the idea of writing sex, and specifics about the technical aspects. People seem to have found it quite helpful; they've been very kind.

Mr Flibble · Jan 13, 2013

Stacia Kane said:
Men do actually think these things. It's only brainless wish-fulfillment fantasy if you have a character with a single-digit IQ who speaks in monosyllabic grunts thinking things like "My god, this exquisite flower is transporting me on a sea of transcendent delight with her ravishing delectable flesh." That's not believable. An average guy thinking "Shit, this is awesome" is believable. An average guy bedding an inexperienced virgin and thinking "Go slow, you don't want to hurt her," is also believable.

I concur totally with Stacia's post but I wanted to highlight this

Men are in fact just as(more?) romantic than women sometimes. Sadly society says they have to act all macho. but behind that...behind that is a person. One who can have his heart broken just as easily as a woman. They just can't talk about it. To almost anyone. That would kill me.

Sometimes I think that gets forgotten.

Men are snuggly love peoples too.

Sorry I ruined your street cred there guys.

Stacia Kane · Jan 13, 2013

Kallithrix said:
Thanks IPTS - I've popped my head into the erotica forum once or twice, but it doesn't interest me that much. The scene I'm talking about isn't erotica, but I think it is important to show the sex scene as part of the development of their relationship.

What exactly is the difference? In erotica the sex scene is part of the development of the relationship; in fact it's one of the main parts.

You're trying to write a sex scene. That's what erotica writers do regularly. You don't think they can help you?

Oooh, now that is a good suggestion. Can't think of that many books I've read with a male POV sex scene. Know any? And preferrably hetro, so I don't accidentally have my MC fantasising about his brother in law while he's supposed to be boinking the poor slave girl

Almost every genre romance novel published has at least one sex scene from the male POV. They're not hard to find.

Mr Flibble · Jan 13, 2013

Stacia Kane said:
Almost every genre romance novel published has at least one sex scene from the male POV. They're not hard to find.

More than half *of the books under my real name have the sex scenes (implied or otherwise) from the male only or 50/50 POV. I prefer to read a male POV in romance, tbh. I want to see how/why they love the MC. I am not a typical romance reader though.

* one had zero sex and teh second had a very fade to black..

Sonsofthepharaohs · Jan 13, 2013

Thanks, Stacia, I really appreciate the time you've taken to reply to me, and I'll certainly check out your blog.

Before I get into my reply, I think now might be a good time to clear up a couple of things people seem to have got the wrong end of the stick about.

I'm not shy about writing sex scenes. I've written, read, and critiqued a fair amount of erotica. My cousin (male) writes erotica for online magazines and I help him out a lot with the 'woman's perspective' when I think he's made his female characters' attitudes seem too male. He has also helped me get into my MMC's head when it comes to his attitude towards the FMC. But I can't just rely on one source, especially when he is nothing like my MC's character.

The problem I'm having is not about how to write a sex scene, but how to get into my male character's head in a sex scene. I am perfectly comfortable in his head in any other situation, but when it comes to sex, I just naturally revert to default POV, which is female. I gotta break out of that comfort zone somehow.

Stacia Kane said:
But let's be honest here. To some extent, you ARE writing a wish-fulfillment fantasy, if you're writing a sex scene intended to arouse your reader as well as advancing story, plot, and character. Nobody is turned on by reading a sex scene from the POV of a selfish dick who might just as well be fucking a bowlful of mud.

I actually snorted like a pig at that. Twas not very sexy of me

ok, this basically comes down to the question: why am I writing this sex scene?

I've asked myself this numerous times. In the beginning, it was purely down to reader demand - the first draft of the old (historical romance) version of the story did a 'fade to black', and test audiences moaned. So, I turned the lights back on and showed the lot - from her POV. They loved it.

Now, in the (historical crime with romance subplot) rewrite, I have to ask myself whether this scene is still appropiate. If it stays, it has to do something more than just serve the romance plot. It has to work for crime story too, so it has to have some kind of justification in the main plot.

This is why I'm thinking about switching it to my male MC's POV, because he's the one who this all affects in the main plot. His feelings for her are clouding his judgement, causing him to neglect important priorities and piss off some people he really doesn't want to piss off. Sleeping with her was supposed to 'get it out of his system', or as his brother in law says: [FONT=&quot]“You’re thinking with your prick. Go upstairs and fuck her and then rethink things with a clear head tomorrow.”[/FONT]

Problem is, he doesn't just end up fucking her - he makes love to her. I don't think he even realises that's what he's doing at the time, because he refuses to admit it to himself, but that's what he does. So, my purpose in keeping the sex scene now is to show that.

Ok, that was probably a bit rambly and off the point, but I just made a pretty important decision there, I think. Sometimes we don't know what we're doing or why until we try to explain it to someone else

Stacia Kane said:
Part of your job as a writer is to imagine things you haven't experienced and remember things you have. Were you never naive or inexperienced?

Er... probably best we don't go there. I haven't been sexually inexperienced for as long as I can remember. And I can remember back to when I was 4.

Stacia Kane said:
Have you never been to bed the first time with someone and really wanted it to go well, never hoped that as he touched you he was thinking things like "Wow, she is gorgeous," or "I can't believe she's letting me do this?"

To be honest, I'm usually thinking in terms of what I don't want him to think... or notice... or make fun of...

So, although I appreciate the tip, this probably means that your technique - imaging things I want a guy to be thinking - isn't going to work for me.

Stacia Kane said:
Men do actually think these things. It's only brainless wish-fulfillment fantasy if you have a character with a single-digit IQ who speaks in monosyllabic grunts thinking things like "My god, this exquisite flower is transporting me on a sea of transcendent delight with her ravishing delectable flesh." That's not believable. An average guy thinking "Shit, this is awesome" is believable. An average guy bedding an inexperienced virgin and thinking "Go slow, you don't want to hurt her," is also believable.

Yeah, true. In the scene as it is written from her POV, it's obvious that he is being gentle and taking it slow, although she has no frame of reference to know that. Actually, her complete lack of understanding about what's supposed to happen and how it's supposed to feel made it more interesting to write.

I guess what might be most interesting from his perspective is him being anxious to know how she's feeling, paying attention to her reactions to make sure she's ok.

Stacia Kane said:
Men are not automatons. Men want to love and be loved just like women do. Men want their partners to enjoy the sex they're having just like women do; in fact, I would say that's an even bigger deal for men, since the onus is still more on men--seemingly, as in there seems to be more a belief that the man is in control of how good the experience is--to be good in bed, to make sure their partner is satisfied. Sometimes, even, men actually want sex to mean something; maybe not all the time, but I think it would be difficult to find a man capable of love who has never been with a woman and wanted it to be more than just a quick fuck.

Good point. Apart from her being a virgin, this is really the first time he's been that concerned for the woman's enjoyment, so I guess he'll be a bit anxious about his performance as well.

Plus, at the banquet he got pretty drunk, and he's only half sobered up, LOL

Hmmm, this is really making me think. Thanks.

Stacia Kane said:
You'd be missing out. One of my boyfriends was a virgin. That was pretty awesome. And I got to see firsthand how much at least one man wanted to learn, and wanted to please not just A woman, but HIS woman. How much that mattered.

Different strokes for different folk, lol!

Stacia Kane said:
Really? I'd think I was doing a good job putting myself into my character's head and POV, and understanding him, and conveying the scene through his eyes, the way a writer should.

Like I said, I was being a bit tongue in cheek with my lesbian comment. I've never been that way inclined, and I couldn't write F/F or M/M erotica because it does nothing for me, so yes, thinking myself into the man's perspective for a sex scene is very unfamiliar, and a little disconcerting. But this thread has given me lots of ideas, and the idea is getting a little less disconcerting all the time

Thanks Stacia, for your lengthy reply, and to everyone who has contributed to this thread. The wall may gradually be coming down

Beachgirl · Jan 13, 2013

Kallithrix said:
Can't think of that many books I've read with a male POV sex scene. Know any? And preferrably hetro, so I don't accidentally have my MC fantasising about his brother in law while he's supposed to be boinking the poor slave girl

*Points shamelessly at own signature line*

All of my books have at least one sex scene from the male POV, usually more. Sometimes I actually find the male POV easier to write than the female. Not sure why, but it just seems to come easier.

And I can't believe I just wrote that last sentence, but yes, yes I did.

BethS · Jan 13, 2013

CrastersBabies said:
Kall, okay first off I didn't notice your avatar until now. Mama! Drogo. Yes.

Oh. I've been wondering who the dude in the bronze Spanx was.

Sonsofthepharaohs · Jan 13, 2013

Stacia Kane said:
Almost every genre romance novel published has at least one sex scene from the male POV. They're not hard to find.

I can't say that I've noticed this - at all, in fact. Most romances I've read the sex is all from the female's perspective. The only male perspective sex scenes I've read have been in historical fiction, which have mainly consisted of soldiers screwing whores or perfunctory couplings described in a string of sweaty verbs.

I'd really like to know of some books with male perspective sex scenes, but google is not helping me out...

Beachgirl · Jan 13, 2013

BethS said:
Oh. I've been wondering who the dude in the bronze Spanx was.

Yeah, I've been drooling over- um, I mean wondering about him, too.

Kallithrix said:
I can't say that I've noticed this - at all, in fact. Most romances I've read the sex is all from the female's perspective. The only male perspective sex scenes I've read have been in historical fiction, which have mainly consisted of soldiers screwing whores or perfunctory couplings described in a string of sweaty verbs.

I'd really like to know of some books with male perspective sex scenes, but google is not helping me out...

Psst. Over here. See my sig line? Yeah, down there. Male POV sex scenes running amuck.

Sonsofthepharaohs · Jan 13, 2013

Beachgirl said:
Psst. Over here. See my sig line? Yeah, down there. Male POV sex scenes running amuck.

LOL, I saw, I saw

I dunno if they're quite what I'm looking for though... I think anything with more than two parties involved has a different dynamic than a traditional M/F romance.

And if there's cock knocking involved, I'm right out :ROFL:

Beachgirl · Jan 13, 2013

Kallithrix said:
LOL, I saw, I saw

I dunno if they're quite what I'm looking for though... I think anything with more than two parties involved has a different dynamic than a traditional M/F romance.

And if there's cock knocking involved, I'm right out

Ha! Yeah, I get you on that! If you're interested, Runaway Heart and Unchained Heart are strictly M/F. No squicky cock-knocking at all. :tongue

AKyber36 · Jan 13, 2013

I write majority male P.O.V.s, and there have been a few times when I've had to deal with sex scenes (hetero and gay). I tend to think about what the guy's emotional input is as he's getting into the action. This not only removes me as far apart from Tab A into Slot B as possible, but it only really allows me to get inside his mind.

For my on-hiatus story, I had to write a brief scene where the MC and his girlfriend take a shower together, which leads to happy time later that night. Since the MC's already been sleeping with his girlfriend for a while, I felt that the MC wouldn't be all into the mechanics of the sex. Rather, he describes briefly how his girlfriend initiates the sex by getting on top of him - he's injured, so he can't initiate - and how their unison is familiar to him, yet so rare because of his current circumstances. My MC tends to let me know how he approaches sex.

Then again, I've been steeped in the male voice for so long that it's not too difficult. I also read plenty of fiction that has a lot of hot-blooded males bedding females, whether for love, seduction, or pure lust. Most have been written by men, and not all are Tab A into Slot B, thank God.

LJD · Jan 13, 2013

Kallithrix said:
I can't say that I've noticed this - at all, in fact. Most romances I've read the sex is all from the female's perspective. The only male perspective sex scenes I've read have been in historical fiction, which have mainly consisted of soldiers screwing whores or perfunctory couplings described in a string of sweaty verbs.

I'd really like to know of some books with male perspective sex scenes, but google is not helping me out...

I agree with Stacia that they're not hard to find.

Are you talking about genre romance? Some romance examples on my ereader, without looking to hard:

Welcome to Paradise - Elle Kennedy
Anything for You - Sarah Mayberry
Holiday Sparks - Shannon Stacey
A Lady by Midnight - Tessa Dare
Love is a Battlefield - Tamara Morgan
Ride with Me - Ruthie Knox
Unraveled - Courtney Milan
(yes, I checked to confirm that there are male POV sex scenes)

In most (m/f) romances with both POVs, if there are multiple sex scenes, then there will be one from the man's POV. In my experience. It's not something I pay much attention to though.

Stacia Kane · Jan 14, 2013

JR Ward's Black Dagger Brotherhood books have multiple male-POV sex scenes.

BTW, there is no rule that says you can't use both POVs in your sex scene.

Multiple POV characters - which to use for the sex scenes??

Resident Alien

Angel Wing Fetish

Burninator!

Still writing the ancient Egyptian tetralogy

Resident Alien

creative genie

Still writing the ancient Egyptian tetralogy

Still writing the ancient Egyptian tetralogy

Girl Detective

They've been very bad, Mr Flibble

Girl Detective

They've been very bad, Mr Flibble

Still writing the ancient Egyptian tetralogy

Not easily managed

Still writing the ancient Egyptian tetralogy

Not easily managed

Still writing the ancient Egyptian tetralogy

Not easily managed

Girl Detective