Myths and mythology

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maestrowork

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What are myths and mythology in terms of modern literature? What determines if something is or has become modern-day mythology? For example, people talk about the mythology of Star Wars, or the mythology of Batman. What makes these mythologies and how do we define them?
 

regdog

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My opinion, the world, beliefs, ideologies etc are believable and real in the story and the readers and fans accapt and stick to them.
 

czjaba

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My opinion is that a myth or whatever people choose to believe to be the answer to some kind of question where a logical answer isn't provided, will continue to be a myth or a legend until something or someone disproves it.
 

brokenfingers

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I'd say one necessary ingredient is a pantheon of characters that are memorable. Also they have to have very well-defined roles. Just like in Greek and Norse mythology.
 

RJK

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Star Wars is based upon the reluctant hero story

Batman is based on the vengful son story

Neither are new.
 

Tachyon

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I'd say one necessary ingredient is a pantheon of characters that are memorable. Also they have to have very well-defined roles. Just like in Greek and Norse mythology.
Yes, and the pantheon of characters have a set of stories/adventures associated with them.

Modern literature becomes mythology when it evolves from a series of interconnected stories into a standalone universe in which the stories take place. The mythology explains how that universe works (and in cases like Batman, why we've got so many people running around in tights).

RJK said:
Star Wars is based upon the reluctant hero story

Batman is based on the vengful son story

Neither are new.
That's true, but both have established separate mythologies.
 

maestrowork

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Star Wars is based upon the reluctant hero story

Batman is based on the vengful son story

Neither are new.

So you're saying "reluctant hero" and "vengeful son" are both established mythologies, albeit set in different worlds and may have different rules. So what constitute these mythologies? The archetypes? The special plot elements? The story arcs? The legends, if you will, and mysteries in these story types?

And what is "myth" building?

I'm just trying to understand what makes something a "mythology" vs. "just another story."
 

mscelina

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The reluctant hero and vengeful son are mythological archetypes. Based upon ancient myths of the same themes (Heracles, for example, or Odysseus) they persevere in modern literature and thrive in a society trained to instant gratification in their entertainment.

Do I have a problem with that? hell, no. I make my living off of it.

However, it's impossible to dismiss Star Wars or Batman as just another set of new variations. Each story has its own distinct world, its own mythical forces, its own theology (for lack of a better word) that directs its characters toward the realms of good or evil.

In my opinion, a modern mythology has to have the same sorts of elements as the great mythological folklores of older societies that are adapted to modern sensibilities. However, every new myth is distinctly its own creation. The world of Star Trek, for example, is people with real, everyday humans who can quote the most obscure trivia points about that world--they don't live there, the world doesn't exist, but for them it's a real, almost tangible existence that lives in their imagination. The personalities of the mythology are larger than life--equating Spock with Odin, for example, is not that big of a stretch--and exist upon a plain that is set above the normal, regular world of the modern human. So, if you're going to build a new myth or mythology, you have to be able to achieve that godlike stature with what you create.

That's why world building is so important in speculative fiction, IMO.
 

Danger Jane

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Mscelina's got it, I think. A story becomes a mythology when it has many elements in common with traditional mythologies and when its characters achieve godlike status for readers.



My opinion is that a myth or whatever people choose to believe to be the answer to some kind of question where a logical answer isn't provided, will continue to be a myth or a legend until something or someone disproves it.


This is a rather simplistic definition. Many myths are not etiological in nature. Even some myths, like the Greek myth of the kidnapping of Persephone, which can easily appear etiological, have deeper subtexts that have nothing to do with "why is there winter".

But does your answer mean that etiological myths, such as those which explain the creation of the universe, become merely "stories" now that we have a scientific answer for how the universe came to be? Are they worth less because we have that scientific answer?
 

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What are myths and mythology in terms of modern literature? What determines if something is or has become modern-day mythology?

To me, modern mythology develops when a fictional world has an extremely detailed history of its own that captures the imagination of readers because it suggests so many more stories in that world. Examples would be the history of Gallifrey and the Time Wars in the Doctor Who universe, the immense history Tolkien created for Middle Earth, and the background stories of the magic in the Harry Potter books. I know it is simplistic, but I think that if the setting and characters are rich and suggestive enough to inspire a lot of fan fic, then we have a modern mythology!
 

Ken

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in Batman and Star Wars there's the age old battle of good against evil.
Many myths, like Zorro & Robin Hood, seem to spring up from this eternal conflict.
(It doesn't hurt to have splendid actors for the leads, either, like John Barrymore and Errol Flynn.)
 

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Another aspect is that a significant number of the population have to "buy in" to the mythology in some way. Doesn't have to be the majority -- "The Rocky Horror Picture Show" absolutely has mythology, but it has far less fans who buy in to the mythology than, say, "Star Wars", for example.

When enough people buy in to the idea/story/characters/setting/what have you, then it turns into a mythology that can expand and take on more than what it originally was.

Or something like that. :D
 

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When enough people buy in to the idea/story/characters/setting/what have you, then it turns into a mythology that can expand and take on more than what it originally was.

Or something like that. :D
Just think of all those fan-created encyclopedias and wikis out there--unofficial "Writer's Bibles" in a sense--that catalogue a series' mythology.
 

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I agree that mythology merely helps explain the unexplainable. Nature, science, even vague notions can be treated with mythology.

"The force is strong with this one" means something that would be difficult to define were it not for Star Wars.
 

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What are myths and mythology in terms of modern literature? What determines if something is or has become modern-day mythology? For example, people talk about the mythology of Star Wars, or the mythology of Batman. What makes these mythologies and how do we define them?
Personally, I think it's just laziness. Those aren't myths. They are fictions. Myths are stories that are told to explain the world to people who didn't have much science or knowledge of how it worked.

Star Wars and Batman are something else again. And I can't think of the appropriate word right now.
 

Danger Jane

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SF: That's a very limited definition, especially compared with those thefreedictionary.com gives me:

The Free Dictionary said:
1. a. A traditional, typically ancient story dealing with supernatural beings, ancestors, or heroes that serves as a fundamental type in the worldview of a people, as by explaining aspects of the natural world or delineating the psychology, customs, or ideals of society: the myth of Eros and Psyche; a creation myth.
b. Such stories considered as a group: the realm of myth.

2. A popular belief or story that has become associated with a person, institution, or occurrence, especially one considered to illustrate a cultural ideal: a star whose fame turned her into a myth; the pioneer myth of suburbia.
3. A fiction or half-truth, especially one that forms part of an ideology.
4. A fictitious story, person, or thing: "German artillery superiority on the Western Front was a myth" Leon Wolff.

Your definition comes closest to matching definition 1A--but it's too narrow for that, as well. A fundamental aspect of a myth or mythology is how it sheds light on the worldview of a people. I would say that such long-running sagas as Batman, Spiderman, Superman, etc, written and interpreted by many authors just like some of the most famous epics, are prime examples of this for contemporary American culture. Certainly they're more immediate and accessible stories for many Americans than anything Hesiod or Ovid wrote.

I'd like to reiterate that not every myth is etiological in nature, and not every etiological myth describes a natural phenomenon. Many of them simply describe why a place is called what it is, where a famous family originates (ahem, Aeneid?), or why certain religious rites are performed.

These contemporary stories seem to fulfill all the requirements of a mythology. Why not call them that?
 

benbradley

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Maestro, the definitive text on this subject, Joseph Campbell's The Hero With a Thousand Faces, is well worth a read.
You almost took the words out of my mouth. I saw Bill Moyers' six-hour interview with Campbell, "The Power of Myth" described here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Power_of_Myth
and as that article states, the connection between Star Wars and Joseph Campbell's work is more than coincidence:
In the first episode of the series, The Hero's Adventure,[1] and the fifth chapter of the book, "The Hero's Adventure," Moyers and Campbell discuss George Lucas' claim that Campbell's work directly influenced the creation of the Star Wars films.
 

Danger Jane

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1a is the correct one. All the others are just suggestions. Suggestions I don't ascribe to.

No way am I ever going to speak of Homer and Star Wars in the same breath.

Does 1a exclude Star Wars? That definition doesn't seem to, as far as I can tell.
 

Beach Bunny

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There are other definitions on dictionary reference dot com. There are so many that I am not going to copy them here. Here is the link: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/myth

I can see where people are coming from in describing Star Wars and Batman as being myths or mythological. I personally wouldn't. I think for something to be a myth or mythological that there should be some element of believability. While modern day people don't believe in Zeus or Thor or most of the other gods, goddesses and other assorted people of the traditional, there was a time when people did believe they were real. We still have people and stories today that are mythological and that people believe are/were real people. For example, King Arthur, Robin Hood, Beowulf, Bonnie and Clyde, Jesse James, etc. The difference between these stories and Star Wars, Star Trek, Batman, etc. Is that the latter are figments of their creators imagination. They will tell you that. It's clear from the get go that those stories are fiction. People who believe that: Tatooine is real, or that Middle Earth was a real place, or that there was a guy in a black rubber suit running around New York City battling crime, have lost touch with reality.

People want to call Star Wars and Batman mythological can do so. That is their perogative. And I understand why they see it that way, but I'm not going to buy into it. *shrug* :)
 

maestrowork

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I know all about the myths associated with the Hero's Journey. I even wrote one. :) I'm more interested in the general definitions and elements of myths and mythologies in addition to the Hero's Journey. When we say "the mythology of Star Wars" or "the mythology of Narnia" what exactly are we talking about beside the world-building, etc.? What makes something a new mythology and not just another epic story?
 

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When we say "the mythology of Star Wars" or "the mythology of Narnia" what exactly are we talking about beside the world-building, etc.? What makes something a new mythology and not just another epic story?

It has little to do with the meaning of the word "mythology," and a lot to do with the audience's desire to elevate the perception of the content.
 
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