The Old Neverending PublishAmerica Thread (Publish America)

Bard

Shucks, thanks!

Also, just to comment on this:

>>I know there are a bunch of small presses and internet-based publishers who offer royalties based on net. Friends don't let friends sign those contracts.

It's never ideal. But I wouldn't limit that to small and internet-based publishers. I think *every* publisher I've ever dealt with has first offered a contract with royalties on net. A few times I've been able to get it changed, but many times I didn't. As long as net is defined strictly in the contract, I wouldn't make it sound like a horror. Only once have I really regretted signing a net contract. The percentages made it such a low royalty per book that it nearly ensured I'd never earn out the advance. But my agent told me it was the best we'd do. I listened.

Now I'm smarter about what a position of power I'm really in once I hit the contract stage, and I think this is important for newer writers to hear. Don't be too afraid to negotiate because you think the Great and Wise Publisher will laugh and turn its back on you. Many hurdles had to be jumped over before an editor got permission to offer you a deal. They had meetings. They crunched numbers. They want you. They've already decided your book could make them a profit. Now it's up to you (and, potentially, your agent) to make sure that YOU profit, too.

Net

I'm afraid that my first books were also based on net. I didn't have an agent, and I couldn't do to much about the contract, even though I tried. It was a
standard boilerplate contract, and I was assured that it was quite ordinary for me to recieve such. The were medium sized traditional publishers. I'm currently seeking an agent for the next project. Hopefully it will be signed on a cover price stipulation

Triceratops

AN and note on distribution

Got here and started figuring the site out.

First - got my copy of Atlanta Nights and read it, except for Chapter 34 which did something strange to my mind. LOL It may be days before I can construct complex sentences again! But worth it, oh yes, worth it!

Second - can’t find the Smart Publishing thread from the old site - could be me, probably is, no dis Jenna -( how could I dis you when you just posted the incredibly important information/ realization about who has the power at the time of contract.)




So, James, I’m answering here. The publisher without distribution incident occurred in 2000 and wasn't PA. Well, can’t say I was young and stupid, I’m old enough to have been Deeringed. However, after getting an editor etc, Shoot! Never mind, it was a small press, not PA, recommended on P&E at the time and I just didn’t think to ask about distribution. It does have online and returnable books now, but I’m really into Shane mode since the Deerings.
Stlight

AN and a note on distribution edit

I went back to edit my post and only found the delete option so this is the edit, adendum whatever to the above post.

I know it reads like a dig against P&E - IT ISN'T. It was chance and I don't expect Dave (a definate hero in my view) to get all the answers to everything. P&E has saved me more than once from nightmares. Are we still friends, Dave?

It simply never occurred to me to ask a publisher about distribution at that time, because in 2000 I was under the whimsical impression that publishers actually liked to sell books to the reading public. My bad.

Now I know ask questions on everything, I have a list - royalties on net/retail, lines of distribution, length of contract, what's the publisher's pr (n/a to big five) etc. AND I know that if the publisher won't answer or gets annoyed and hangs up, I'm better off without that publisher or agent.

See, it is possible to learn and though I didn't PA, this PA thread has taught me more about publsihing than any how to get published book I happened upon in my wanderings.

Stlight

Money

The reason that writers harp on money isn't because we're all in it for the money. (Gracious! If we were just after money there's other ways to get it that don't have the uncertainty and egoblasts.)

The reason we talk about money is this: We're really after readers. But readers are hard to quantify. We've noticed that there's a positive correlation between number of readers and amount of cash. Cash is easy to quantify.

Therefore ... when we talk money we mean readers.

Best-seller at PublishAmerica

GPS said:

I ran into this quote reported on a blog.

"Over a period of time I bought and sold about 2,000 books," Cantu writes in an e-mail.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

This brings up an obvious question. Larry says that Mr. Cantu sold 5,200 books. What happened to the 3,200 that aren't mentioned in the quoted e-mail?

P&E and I have no problem with what folks say about us. It's an impossible task to get every rating right the first time. As well, we have to give some businesses the benefit of the doubt if we have no historical data on them. However, time is on our side and eventually they're exposed for what they are.

So, we're going to get a few wrong. People are going to notice those. They'll comment and criticize us. That's to be expected. In the long run, they'll also notice that we have integrity and aren't fooled for long.

about cantu

James,what he said in an email to me was that it's been an uphill battle just to get his book accepted by just a few BN stores, that borders still doesn't carry it on their shelves and that small bookstores accept it best. He said they've worked very hard to get where they are, exposure, the web, fliers, have all been part of the success. I asked if he bought the books, but he didn't mention that part of my message to him. If I had to guess based on his reply, re, only being in a few BN stores, I'd guess he bought the books himself.
Chris

HB is the Richard (it deleted ****) Tracy of PA!

Witness the below, he has discovered the "basher poster" on Amazon:

I know exactly who the idiot is because I tricked a phone person at Amazon into letting me know my guess was right. The different personalities they use every three days are nonsense. You can tell it's them due to their crappy writing skills. What a joke! They're probably patting themselves on the back thinking they've got everyone fooled with their 'many faces'. Jeeze, the technique is so money, you freakin' twit.

Where's all the rambling sociopaths when you need real entertainment instead of sad attempts at being clever?

Click to expand...

Interesting that no more detail than that was given. My theory, had it been someone here, is that there would have at least been references to bashers or whatever. That's provided, of course, that the statement is even true in the first place, after all, this is coming from a man who believes that he can sell books at a Holiday Inn conference room.

On another note, I've had several people write or tell me that PA books are of such poor quality that their covers roll up and bend after several months. Is that true?

P.S. How is it that HB can see that the "Amazon basher" has poor writing skills, but doesn't seem to be able perceive that anywhere else around him...

Tricked a phone person

Ed Williams said:

On another note, I've had several people write or tell me that PA books are of such poor quality that their covers roll up and bend after several months. Is that true?

Click to expand...

That's true of any paper that's laminated on only one side. When it gets moist one side expands, the other doesn't. Result: it curls.


I wonder if HB would share with us the identity of the person he discovered?

books and covers

James D. Macdonald said:

This brings up an obvious question. Larry says that Mr. Cantu sold 5,200 books. What happened to the 3,200 that aren't mentioned in the quoted e-mail?

Click to expand...

My guess...still in his closet/office/garage...unless he managed to get local civic groups and educators to purchases 3200 copies direct from PA. But, just a guess...

As for Ed, in regards to bending covers...yes, they get to the point where the covers bend and roll, but for the same reason that any other book has that problem (and the reason I REALLY like to buy hardcovers whenever possible). Lots of opening and closing, and bending over to read the innards...


Big Daddy West

p.s. I feel so complete now with my little smilie back...

PA a cult?

I attended last year's disastrous PA Convention in Frederick. It was my final wake up call (though I had already signed with another publisher for my second novel). At the pathetic banquet, which did feature grossly insufficient food, armed guards, and a fire alarm halfway through, I was struck during Larry Cloppers' speech with the fact that PA was operating as a cult. I was honestly afraid at the banquet, and was relieved by the fire alarm allowing us to return to our hotel. Yes, PA is a cult.

Diana Hignutt

On Compensation

I realize that this is going to seem like sacrilege, particularly for someone who represents authors, but I can't entirely agree with the blanket disdain for royalties-on-net agreements. Not entirely.

They can work and be fair to both parties if:

(1) The percentage is constant for all sales. The real problem with "royalties on net" is that most such contracts pay a reduced percentage when the discount gets too large, parallel to the reduced percentage paid on deep-discount books off cover price. This is, to say the least, intellectually dishonest, and the math is rather simple. If our on-net royalty rate is 15%, our off-cover royalty rate is 10%, our cover price is C, and the "extraordinary discount rate" is 50%, then per-copy author income is:

At full price: 0.15C net, 0.10C cover
At trade long discount: (0.15*0.6)C = 0.10C net, 0.10C cover
Just short of extraordinary discount: (0.15*0.5)C = .075C net, 0.10C cover
Selling to Costco (55% discount): (0.15*0.45)/2C = 0.03375C net, 0.10/2C = 0.05C cover

In other words, the author subsidizes the lower shipping and fulfillment costs of the mass order. If one uses real numbers, one will find that the publisher makes more profit when it sells to Costco (or whoever else; they're just a convenient example) within two months of the street date than it does on any other sale below full list, which it gets only in direct sales!

The problem, as should be apparent, is that the typical on-net royalty rate is set in a way that hides the reduced income from the author. If, instead, one uses proper math, based on equalizing income with the cover-price method; and rejects the extraordinary-discount fallacy; and properly defines what the publisher is allowed to deduct from the revenue received to get the net, these contracts can be fair, and actually vastly easier to administer. The administration is particularly an issue when dealing with e-books.

As a matter of fairness, there should also be a minimum royalty per copy sold specified in the contract; but I advocate that for off-cover contracts, too.

(2) The on-net royalty base will come from sales for which the publisher doesn't get paid promptly. It's one thing for the authors to have to wait six months to get paid (I always advocate quarterly accounting, but it's pushing against a glacier); it's another entirely when a publisher is dealing with Certain French E-book Distributors that take up to a year to even account for sales.

It's also a different matter depending on the nature of the publisher; a typical small press doesn't have the mass of hidden reserves to call on that a mid-sized and larger press has. Rule of thumb: If the publisher has predictable annual sales in excess of around $6 million, it is sitting on a substantial and fairly stable slush fund. Unfortunately, proving that requires some rather complex forensic accounting!
None of this is to say that one shouldn't be extremely cautious when presented with an on-net royalty base. Just like any other contract, it might require you to do the math to see if it's fair, and then object to the unfair parts.
Also as an aside, in the modern market (that is, since the late 1970s) the ordinary break-even point for publisher profit, even under the dubious accounting that publishers use, comes with sales that would result in earning back about 75-80% of the advance—not 100% of the advance. That differential is justified through tax savings and a variety of other considerations, such as relative ROE. If one keeps that in mind, one will discover that in excess of 70% of the trade books from established publishers are profitable to the publisher. Not always very profitable, no; but keep in mind that most loaves of standard white sandwich bread aren't profitable, either, but the bakeries seem to be excellent targets for acquisition by venture capitalists.

Diana Hignutt said:

I attended last year's disastrous PA Convention in Frederick. It was my final wake up call (though I had already signed with another publisher for my second novel). At the pathetic banquet, which did feature grossly insufficient food, armed guards, and a fire alarm halfway through, I was struck during Larry Cloppers' speech with the fact that PA was operating as a cult. I was honestly afraid at the banquet, and was relieved by the fire alarm allowing us to return to our hotel. Yes, PA is a cult.

Click to expand...

Diana, I've heard the stories about that disastrous convention. I can't even imagine what it must have felt like to have been there. I think that what disturbed me most were the reports of the armed guards. I mean, sheesh, what on earth would nice, inoffensive, professional "book publishers" need with armed guards?! It was at that point that I knew for sure I wasn't over-reacting and seeing gorgons that weren't there -- it IS a cult, with its attendant cult mentality, and it ought to scare anybody with half a brain.

Diana, it's a pleasure to see you here...

...and your post made me think of something - wasn't it roughly about this time last year that PA had their convention? Wonder why they haven't scheduled another for this year? Could it be the fear of:

1. Having to answer questions about the recent spate of negative articles about PA?

2. Genuine security worries about Moe-randa, Larry, and Curlem being confronted by less than pleased PA authors?

3. Worries that HB will want to set up a multi-author signing in the parking garage at the motel?

4. Concerns about the current cost of cocktail weinees for the all-you-can-eat buffet?

P.S. Diana, if you read this, how palpable was the concern about the armed guard thing? Were people genuinely worried about why they were there? I think a lot of our readers might not be aware of what happened at the convention, and just an explanation of the "security" measures utilized might prove to be very enlightening...

I'm selectively porting posts over here from the old AW--not the chatting, just the informational stuff, such as Laura's great posts about libraries:

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keltora
New friend
Posts: 35
(2/10/05 2:20 pm)
| Del New Post Re: Library of Congress question... again In addition to being an author, I am a librarian (Rachel Ward toss of the hair here--LOL--I think I just put a crick in my neck), I can say that we do have two books in our collection from PA. And both are from local authors.

The first one I approved because in spite of the poor editing and writing, it had some good historical information (even though it was fiction), so I suggested we "archive" it in our historical collection where they tend to put self-published materials of local interest of both fiction and nonfiction.

The second was sent us by a local historian we all happened to know, and it was a local history, and it was actually well written and accurate, so we accepted it for the historical collection.

But I have seen several hundred PA books across my desk and have turned them all down on the grounds of poor editing and bad writing, and because libraries, like bookstores, get innundated with too many self-published books. The majority are shipped back with a "no thank you," note.

The ones that do not give us an address to ship to are actually tossed into recycle.

Laura J. Underwood (A Little Bit of Travis Tea--My ATLANTA NIGHTS can poke out your EYE OF ARGON any day!)

Laura J. Underwood
Black Hunters, Demons and Blood Mages--Oh, MY!
CHRONICLES OF THE LAST WAR available from Yard Dog Press
DRAGON'S TONGUE forthcoming from Meisha Merlin in 2006

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keltora
New friend
Posts: 36
(2/10/05 3:44 pm)
| Del New Post Re: Pot, meet Kettle... I work in the main library of a system that has 18 branches county wide and serves the needs of a population of around 400,000 (and that's including people who come in to use us from surrounding counties). We're one of four independent major metropolitan library systems within the state. We have a staff of about 150 full time and an additional 100 part time people ranging from part time clerical assistants up to one of the finest reference departments full of professionals in the state.

I am the head of the Periodicals Department here, but because of my experiences as an author as well as someone versed in reading SF/F and Mysteries, I am one of the people the single collection develpment librarian depends on for information. And if she has no clue who a publisher is, she sends the books to me.

All of the PA books I have seen have been shipped by the authors themselves. We have NEVER to my knowledge received a book from PA themselves, and in fact, we have never seen any publicity from them. Patrons do come in and ask about them, and even before partaking in "the sting" I was the person they would ask about various publishers (and I would tell them to check P&E and Writer Beware, and these boards when I became aware of them).

My first encounter with PA was through a local writer sending us her novel, and in fact, that was the one that was so poorly edited and written, I winced, but she had done her local history research, so I was torn between saying "no way," and "well, it's got some good historical stuff in it" to the CD librarian.

It was about then that I noticed a proliferation of PA writers in the area, and considering that the local writer's guild has allowed this person to speak and recommend PA, I suspect that she is the one who got the ball rolling. She has three books with PA now, and I have noticed that she has sort of dropped out of sight locally since all this began.

If an author from PA approached me, I would be polite (I'm in public service--I am sworn to be polite--it's one of the mantras of the business ), but I suspect I would be honest as well because its against my nature not to be.

Though I think my answers would be the professional ones of, "sorry, but our policy does not allow us to accept gift books without first reviewing them" and "we prefer to add materials to our collection that have had reviews in favorable sources" (Booklist, Library Journal, Kirkus) or even "several of our staff have reviewed this, and we do not feel that it is in the best interest of our patrons to add this to our collection."

If they asked for my personal opinions, I would then have to let the cat out of the bag and say, "Sorry, the quality of this book is just not up to professional editing standard, it is full of typos, and frankly could have benefited from a good editor."

Yeah, I walk a very dangerous line there.

I also have a background as a book reviewer for the local papers for about ten years, so my word tends to become the law they hide behind (no, I never really wanted that kind of power--it just came with the territory, and my mother always said I needed a job where I could be a know-it-all) to keep from having to be honest, and I have taught courses in writing for publication, and have been selling to both professional and small press venues for the last thirty-three years of my writing career.

Yes, I do wish there were an easier way to tell people that their work needs more work. I think a lot of new writers forget that there is no such thing as instant success. That and they just refuse to cut the umbilical that ties them to their work. I don't like to discourage people. Granted, I have seen some writers who are beyond redemption (had one of those in a course I taught--the guy is probably STILL looking for an idea that will make him rich and famous, which is what he told me was his goal as a writer :rollin --more power to him...)

Finding the balance is hard sometimes.

Laura J. Underwood (A Little Bit of Travis Tea--My ATLANTA NIGHTS can poke out your EYE OF ARGON any day)

Laura J. Underwood
Black Hunters, Demons and Blood Mages--Oh, MY!
CHRONICLES OF THE LAST WAR available from Yard Dog Press
DRAGON'S TONGUE forthcoming from Meisha Merlin in 2006

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keltora
New friend
Posts: 37
(2/10/05 3:57 pm)
| Del New Post Re: Pot, meet Kettle... Forgot to add, I live in an area where self-publishing is considered normal and even encouraged. The number of poets and essay writers and historians is boundless.

There was an article recently in the local papers where the author of the article (a local essay writer with a couple of small press collections of her essays and short fiction) was telling people "this is okay."

What she did not do was distinguish when self-publishing was okay and when it was a mistake, and I--being the forthright sort who lives with one foot permanently entrenched in her mouth--wrote her and told her that the message here should have been self publish only when you have a market niche so limited, no publisher can afford to risk buying it, not when you want to sell your Star Wars or Tolkein ripoff or your romance novel or your mystery novel.

At least she did cite that there was a difference between self-publishing (going to a printer, doing all the work and promotion yourself) and vanity (paying for printed copies of your book through a service like iUniverse or PA).

Laura J. Underwood (A Little Bit of Travis Tea--My ATLANTA NIGHTS can poke out your EYE OF ARGON any day!)

Laura J. Underwood
Black Hunters, Demons and Blood Mages--Oh, MY!
CHRONICLES OF THE LAST WAR available from Yard Dog Press
DRAGON'S TONGUE forthcoming from Meisha Merlin in 2006

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ByGrace
New friend
Posts: 29
(2/10/05 5:56 pm)
| Del New Post Re: The article..... I'm an author that has aggressively marketed her books. The first thing I did was solicit legitimate book reviews. Having these, I was able to approach libraries in a professional manner. I didn't want to come off like, "Gee, look at me. I got a book published."

I sent an email announcement about my books, with book review blurbs and synopsis, to almost every county library in the US. I haven't gone back to see how many bought copies. But there were several that emailed me back and said they ordered. I have checked their catalogs and they told the truth. Libraries in Denver, New York, Florida, were among them. My local library has six branches. I have three published novels, and they bought between six to ten copies of each title, plus they archived them. The libraries in my state ordered books.

I was aware of the editing problems with PA, and have read some good and some bad books from them. One book had at least five blatant errors on every page. No kidding! I felt so sorry for the lady that wrote it.

Anyway, I felt I had to prove my worth, and I believe I did that. I've built my name at least locally, and people love my novels. They are checked out all the time, and I met with the library book clubs. I did this on my own. It's pushed me to keep going and seek a better publisher. If I could get this far with the roadblocks set up by PA, I started wondering how far I could go if I land a mainstream publisher.

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James D Macdonald
I live here
Posts: 3181
(2/10/05 6:11 pm)
| Del
New Post Re: Concern about an email Grace, that can be a virus, yes. You'll find "nice game" as a subject line on some versions of the Klez virus.

All this means is that someone who has both your email address and HB's on their computer is infected.

I'm assuming that you, at the very minimum, have an antivirus program (such as AVG freeware), a firewall (such as Zone Alert freeware) and a spyware hunter (such as Spybot Search and Destroy freeware).



Yes, with the promotional boost you've given your book, the sky's the limit with what you've done with your book, had it come out from a legitimate press.

If you want/are willing, would you whisper in my ear how many you've sold/how many you've bought yourself/what you've spent on marketing? I promise that anything you tell me will stay with me -- I don't blab peoples' secrets. Several people who post here know that for themselves, but ... alas ... I can't tell you their names. If you want, like I said. I use such information only to refine my models, and to avoid saying untrue things.

book publishing

Edited by: James D Macdonald at: 2/10/05 6:51 pm

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keltora
New friend
Posts: 38
(2/10/05 11:58 pm)
| Del New Post RE: The Article *****I'm an author that has aggressively marketed her books. The first thing I did was solicit legitimate book reviews. Having these, I was able to approach libraries in a professional manner. I didn't want to come off like, "Gee, look at me. I got a book published."****

And that is what librarians like to see. You prove to us that you have legitimate review sources, and we're more than willing to consider the book for our collection. And I can't speak for all libraries since different libraries are supported in different ways, and have different policies. But in general, a professional presentation by an author, and a product that looks good is going to get our nod of approval for shelf space.

But we get a lot of self-published books--and not just PA books--where the publicity is cobbled together in an amateur fashion. I have yet to find a librarian who cares what they say about a book on Amazon.com for instance, because the majority of the reviews are from friends and family member who are not going to be unbiased.

The sources we trust best are LJ and Kirkus and Booklist and Choice and VOYA. Local paper reviews are good too. When I wrote for the local papers, I was encouraged by the editor to give more attention to small press books. He figured big press books got more than their share of attention (Yes, I have my tongue in cheek as I say that, but I understood his point). So I know how hard it is to get attention for small press books on that level as well as being the author of several.

Remind me to find a place out here to tell the story of the man who tried to set up a signing in a local bookstore whose book was mimeographed and stapled...

Laura J. Underwood (A Little Bit of Travis Tea--My ATLANTA NIGHTS can poke out your EYE OF ARGON any day!)
www.sff.net/people/keltora

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Susan Gable
New friend
Posts: 1
(2/11/05 1:21 pm)
| Del New Post Pennwriters Hi, everyone! Ever since the Travis Tea/Altanta Nights thing happened, I've been reading this thread with interest, never feeling the need to sign up so I can post.

But now I must. You've all been really great, very educational, and now I must return the favor.

My name is Susan Gable, I'm a member of Pennwriters, a very good organization now being maligned by this PA guy.

First and foremost, let me say we (Pennwriters) have NOT "blacklisted" anybody! That's a wrong word choice by that writer. He's annoyed that we have, much as you all here have, been pointing out the spots on his chosen publisher.

Pennwriters is a multi-genre, multi-everything writers group. Publication is NOT a requirement to join. In fact, we welcome everyone who wants to learn about writing in any shape/form. However, we *do* have authors that we "recognize" as being published. (I'm one of them.) We have guidelines that spell it out.

Needless to say, PA has put a crimp in the organization's style, because it doesn't "fit" the normal definitions of vanity/self-published. Our Board already told this PA that they plan to discuss it at their Feb. meeting. I believe that currently we have some "recognized" authors who qualified using a PA book - hey, even writing groups can get sucked in and make a mistake. :-(I know when PA first began, we discussed it, and since we didn't have the benefit of all the information that's been out there now (thanks to you and Travis Tea. <G>) I believe we fell for the "traditional publisher" line.

The Board will be re-evaluating this. My personal prediction is that they will decide that in the future, PA books (and others from similiar publishers) will not qualify a writer as "published" for the purpose of recognition in the organization. BUT - I also believe they will "grandfather" the PA authors already granted recognition, because it's kind of rude to take stuff like that away from people. (Please keep in mind that's only my personal prediction, and what the Board actually does, I have no direct control over. <G>)

The discussion on the Pennwriter's email list regarding PA was factual, but as you have seen from the PA boards, some people don't understand that. They see it as an attack on their publisher, them, and their books. That's not what happened. Nor did any "blacklisting" occur.

Thanks for all the information you've provided, and for giving me a chance to set the record straight. If anyone has any other questions about Pennwriters, I'd be happy to answer them. (If I can.)

We now return you to your regularly scheduled PA discussion.

Susan Gable
www.susangable.com

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Ed Williams 3
Board fanatic
Posts: 482
(2/11/05 1:50 pm)
| Del New Post Susan, I saw this same thing happen... ....at a pretty well known Southern literary festival that I've attended in the recent past. Their guidelines only allowed authors who had published with reputable houses to attend/promote at their festival. One or two PA authors managed to somehow get in, I'm guessing because at that time very little was known about PA and their business practices. Once all of that came to light, the door was shut and PA is now on the outside looking in.

The "Atlanta Nights/Travis Tea" thing is the very solid tip of a huge iceberg of information out there about PublishAmerica - the vast majority of it being uniformly bad. I hope your organization will stick to their guns, PA is truly a mega bottom feeder in the publishing industry, and no good will come from your association with them.

P.S. Welcome to the board, hope you will post again and often!

Edited by: Ed Williams 3 at: 2/11/05 1:53 pm

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Susan Gable
New friend
Posts: 2
(2/11/05 2:02 pm)
| Del New Post Thanks, Ed. Thanks for the welcome, Ed.

Ed said: I hope your organization will stick to their guns, PA is truly a mega bottom feeder in the publishing industry, and no good will come from your association with them.

Exactly. Reputation is part of it, and that's something we've had trouble getting people to understand in the past. We hold a very successful (though on the small side) multi-genre conference each year, and we manage to get reputiable editors and agents to attend - but folks don't seem to understand that once you start equating "published" with self-pubbed, vanity, etc. that it's opening a big can of worms. Also, we don't want people to thing that because we accept PA as a true "publisher" that we approve of how they do business. We don't. And we don't anyone to think we're recommending them. :eek

Susan G.
---------
www.susangable.com

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FM St George
Board elder
Posts: 543
(2/11/05 2:45 pm)
| Del New Post just another supportive post for Pennwriters! just wanted to add my voice to Susan's - I've been a member of Pennwriters for a few years now and do NOT consider my "book" with PublishAmerica to give me any sort of publishing credit. In fact, I left it off my application because I knew that it wasn't a valid credit to try and build my rep on.

This PA author would have been better off to leave it up to the Board at Pennwriters to decide the validity of PublishAmerica authors to claim published status. I don't know what he was thinking; that having a gaggle of PA authors swarming Pennwriters would somehow influence the final decision. Not bloody likely.

They are a good, sound organization and I would encourage any writers in Pennsylvania to consider membership because of their reputation and their ability to deliver support to writers in the way of mailing lists, advocates, conferences and seminars.

blatant plug out.



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RealityChuck
Board regular
Posts: 118
(2/11/05 1:59 pm)
| Del New Post Re: Quick, before it's gone... I don't think it's a silly as the previous post by jck:

Quote:Some lateral thinking will at least give you a fighting chance when only one book in three in bookstores make money.

First if you can manage to give your book away you will make more sales.

Secondly if you pay people to buy your book you will make more sales.

Only one in three make money? So why are the publishers bothering? Maybe he meant one in three earn back their advance (where does he get that figure, though?), but that's different from making money.

If you give the book away, you may make more sales, but do they make up for your cost of buying the book at PA? And paying people to buy your book is highly unlikely to be cost-effective.

This is one more example of PA authors' blind-eye accounting: Never count the money you're spending on the book. Just count the money coming in. So you're making money!

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James D Macdonald
I live here
Posts: 3193
(2/11/05 2:06 pm)
| Del
New Post Re: Quick, before it's gone... I can go with the datum that two thirds of trade books don't earn out. (Which, as you say, isn't the same thing as not making a profit.)

But for the rest? It sounds like the guy who was selling five dollar bills for four dollars each. Sure, he lost a little on every sale, but just look at the volume!

Seriously, though -- these are authors who just want their books to be read. If there were no other way to get 'em read, leaving a pile on the sidewalk with a sign that says "Free books! Take one!" would be reasonable.

But if all you're looking for is a printer, there are lots of cheaper places than PublishAmerica, and most printers don't add errors to your manuscript.

book publishing

Edited by: James D Macdonald at: 2/11/05 2:10 pm

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NicoleJLeBoeuf
Board regular
Posts: 88
(2/11/05 2:13 pm)
| Del New Post Re: PA forum ignorance: universal? Ed, Chris--I probably wasn't clear: I'm not wondering why PA Forum participants talk about things not related to writing; I'm wondering why so many posts there, on any topic, reflect so much ignorance and immaturity.

And I guess the question isn't really fair... for "Philwick"s single-user example of insensitivity, there were a good four or five stunning examples of humanity answering him. I guess I was just having a snit after the original query got under my skin.

I do understand, believe me, that their forum, like anyone else's, fulfills a need for community.

I think something like what Zaz said may be on target, at least as regards ignorance and/or incompetence in writing/publishing... only posts that are ignorant of how publishing actually works, or by authors who don't care much about PA's editing standards, will be left to stand after the moderator finishes his/her deletion duties; and those whose posts aren't deleted, post a lot. That makes sense. However, it has nothing to do with ignorance in other aspects of life, right? Someone who doesn't realize what a poisoned apple PA is doesn't necessarily also have to think that romance is only made of visual cues or that blind people are somehow emotionally as well as physically handicapped, right?

Or maybe the level of willful writing-related ignorance cultivated on the PA forums by the moderators indicates a tendency towards narrow thinking in all realms of life? Someone who sufficiently puts hands over eyes and plugs ears when the unwelcome truth about PA comes ambling along might also do the same when it comes to, say, politics.

An interesting philosophical question, I think... but, as I've come to realize on second thought, not entirely fair to consider indicative. Even among those who regularly post to the PA Forums, there are examples of wit and sensitivity and brilliance. They just aren't necessarily loud enough to attract attention here.

For my rash assumptions and brief little temper tantrum, apologies.

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DaveKuzminski
Board royalty
Posts: 1474
(2/11/05 2:28 pm)
| Del
New Post Re: PA forum ignorance: universal? PA is fostering an atmosphere of incompetence and ignorance by deleting posts that do not match PA's idea of how publishing should work. Consequently, it's a lot like the old joke where two people, one from the US and the other from the old Soviet Union, met and were discussing politics wherein the US individual boasted of the freedom he had and how he could complain about how bad the President was only to have the individual from the Soviet Union proclaim that he likewise had the freedom to complain about how bad the US President was.

Edited by: DaveKuzminski at: 2/11/05 2:29 pm

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keltora
New friend
Posts: 43
(2/11/05 3:11 pm)
| Del New Post Speaking of PA, Libraries and Travis Tea Jenna, sorry, meant to put this here and forgot how and it ended up starting a whole new thread...

If you can delete the other one... ?

The "sting" has been mentioned in Library Listserves...

http://www.lisnews.com/article.pl?sid=05/01/27/2023231&mode=thread&tid=16&tid=11

And PA thinks that librarians are their friends?

Laura J. Underwood (A Little Bit of Travis Tea--My ATLANTA NIGHTS can poke out your EYE OF ARGON any day!)

Laura J. Underwood
Black Hunters, Demons and Blood Mages--Oh, MY!
CHRONICLES OF THE LAST WAR available from Yard Dog Press
DRAGON'S TONGUE forthcoming from Meisha Merlin in 2006

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James D Macdonald
I live here
Posts: 3196
(2/11/05 4:08 pm)
| Del
New Post Re: I will only answer you once Let's deal with InfoCenter's misinformed twaddle again:


CIP numbers have never been necessary for libraries to stock books. We have seen this even suggested before, but it is a very unusual rumour, and PublishAmerica easily proves the opposite.

Very unusual rumor? PublishAmerica easily disproves it? What? CIP numbers aren't necessary for libraries to stock books -- but CIP or other numbers are necessary for them to catalog and circulate books. Having a CIP number makes it very much easier to get libraries to both stock and circulate books. Some libraries won't even accept books without CIP as a gift.



CIP numbers are not necessary for libraries to order a books. What is necessary is for publishers to have accounts with the book wholesaler that libraries use.

That wholesaler is Baker & Taylor.



PublishAmerica deals directly with the most common wholesaler that libraries use. PublishAmerica has had an account with this wholesaler since our very first day.

Yes, and PA's discount to libraries through B&T is just 5%. When other publishers give 40% through B&T. That's one heck of an incentive for libraries to buy books that aren't reviewed in Library Journal, and are often poorly edited.


Although libraries typically stock only a small percentage of new books published, PublishAmerica books are ordered by libraries each week, both through wholesalers and directly from PublishAmerica.

Ah, the "of all books published" dodge again. We've seen the real numbers, InfoCenter. 791 different titles in libraries out of 7,980 titles listed at Amazon. One of those is in 132 libraries worldwide. The rest are in dribs and drabs, in ones and twos (and those were ordered when a local author begged the library on his knees, or donated the book as a gift, right?). Recall that there are 117,859 libraries in the United States alone. That's dismal. That's worse than dismal. That's horrible.


Although libraries typically stock very few new books, PublishAmerica is proud to have many hundreds of titles stocked in libraries across the nation, and we have many librarians as our authors.

"Very few" is an undefined term.

Many hundreds of titles. 791, to be precise.

Many librarians as authors? That's like many lawyers as authors. Librarians and lawyers can be as naive as any other author. As trusting, as misinformed, and as misled.

How are those many librarians doing as far as getting their books shelved in libraries other than their own?

Ed Williams said:

On another note, I've had several people write or tell me that PA books are of such poor quality that their covers roll up and bend after several months. Is that true?

Click to expand...

It's also true of books from commercial publishers--I've gotten many a curly-covered paperback from various major imprints.

- Victoria

PA covers

Ed, yes it's true, the books do roll up, but it does not take a few months, they also, and this with time, begin to seperate. I posted over at the other board awhile back that this is the reason some bookstores don't want these books, they are substandard. There was someone over on the message boards a long time ago who's father told her that there was something they are leaving out of the process that keeps other books from doing this.
I know if I wanted to leave my book out, I'd have to turn it every other day to keep it closed.
I would also say to the Cannon Lawyer that I do not think that publishamerica authors think because they have a christian book they have a right to have it printed, I don't think they think that at all...they think because it's christian that it would take forever or longer to get it published.
About the conference, I remember many, many people not getting their money back after the last attempt to have one in Fla. anyone remember that one? PA backed out of it because of the many hurricianes, and then people complained that they had already paid, and I wonder if this is why there is no more talk about having one. After all, all they would have had to do was ban the ones not getting refunded.

Gratian Gasparri said:

The problem, I see, is that too many of these folks think they are entitled to have their book published because they and their book are Christian.

Click to expand...

Christian writers also tend to be more gullible, since they seem to assume that anyone claiming to be a Christian will do business in a morally superior way. Both these attitudes are energetically exploited by the many, many disreputable agents and publishers who prey specifically on Christian writers.

Unfortunately the major guide to Christian markets, Sally Stuart's Christian Writer's Market Guide, includes a lot of them. It's one of the more unreliable guides, IMO, but there aren't many alternatives for this particular market.

- Victoria

Thanks

Wanted to thank victoria for bring the Library discussion over here, I had wanted to look at that yesterday but when I clicked on Forum over there it directed me here so that I couldn't get in.

bikrpreacher said:

About the conference, I remember many, many people not getting their money back after the last attempt to have one in Fla. anyone remember that one? PA backed out of it because of the many hurricianes, and then people complained that they had already paid, and I wonder if this is why there is no more talk about having one. After all, all they would have had to do was ban the ones not getting refunded.

Click to expand...

Chris, I remember seeing a blurb on the PA page about the FL conference being canceled due to hurricane(s). I never saw anything about whether those who had already paid got their money back, though. I was pretty sure they didn't, but I never did see anything about it on the boards. I guess they must have had extra board monitors working during that period.

I wonder if HB would share with us the identity of the person he discovered?

Click to expand...

My guess is it's someone who has (in their own mind) an axe to grind with PA supporters and "bashers" alike. Someone who has been banned from almost every writing forum on earth (including PAs), someone who's writing is always incoherent and full of misspellings, and someone who has repeatedly shown themselves to be vindictive and manipulative.

Only one person comes to my mind: think Shakespeare. (A "vindictive and manipulative person" by any other name....)

3200 copies

James D. Macdonald said:

This brings up an obvious question. Larry says that Mr. Cantu sold 5,200 books. What happened to the 3,200 that aren't mentioned in the quoted e-mail?

Click to expand...

Don't know. The owner of the blog says Cantu didn't mention the other 3200. If the number came from Clopper, well...

WhisperingBard said:

Only one person comes to my mind: think Shakespeare. (A "vindictive and manipulative person" by any other name....)

Click to expand...

Forsooth, methinks you doth speak the truth, Bard. 'Tis a shame that the name of that lovely and fragrant item hath been corrupted by the outrageous slings and arrows of the unrepentant shrew. Out, out, damned spot! :Smack:

Battle cry:

Screw your reviews to the sticking post! We shall not fail!