'Teaching' in children's fiction

Smish · Jan 3, 2010

There's been a bit of a discussion in the SYW forum regarding teaching in chidren's fiction. Since SYW isn't really the proper place for such a debate, I'm bringing the issue here.

Here is the discussion so far, in chronological order...

JudScotKev said:
If you are writing a NOVEL, not a non-fiction book, then your first and most important goal should be to write a good STORY that kids will enjoy. If your main goal is to Teach them Something, or to Encourage them to take an interest in Something that's Good For Them, then you are going to kill the joy of your story.

Tarantulas are cool. Lots of kids love tarantulas. Science is cool. Lots of kids love science. Focus all your energy on making the book entertaining, and you'll be fine. Let the science fit in where it should, and don't use the story to try to teach.

vwyler said:
I don't mean to sound snarky either, but why not teach? A story can be entertaining and teach at the same time. Every PBS show for kids I can think of teaches. Word Girl is a great example. If a cartoon can do this and pull it off, then why not a book?

Smish said:
Because kids read novels for FUN. If they smell a lesson, they'll close the book.

Sure, you can slide things in naturally, and kids definitely learn a lot by reading novels. But that's just a bonus.

The goal of a novel should not be to educate a kid on a particular topic (spiders fo example). The goal of a novel should be to entertain. If that doesn't sound like a lofty enough goal, let me phrase it differently: the goal of a novel is to create a world full of characters with whom the child can relate, providing them with the opportunity to develop empathy. That's a pretty awesome thing, if you ask me.

vwyler said:
I never closed a book because I felt a lesson coming on, Smish... even as a child. In fact, snippets of knowledge introduced here and there in books frequently prompted me to learn more on the subject. I believe we may be underestimating a lot of kids. It is possible to teach and entertain at the same time. As I mentioned above, PBS television has been doing it very successfully for decades. Anything TV can do, a book can also do.

For the record, I'm not arguing that the main point of a fiction novel should be to teach. Your statement above is absolutely true. The goal is to entertain. All I'm saying is that there is room for both.

Smish said:
Actually, I think it's underestimating children to believe they need to be knocked over the head with a lesson. The best children's authors, in my opinion, understand the art of subtlety.

The SYW section really isn't the proper place for this discussion, though. I'll go ahead and post a thread in the Writing for Kids section, since others may have opinions to share.

Cyia · Jan 3, 2010

This seems to be a common / pervasive / lasting "problem" with kidlit especially. So many people come at kids' books with the mistaken assumption that 1 - it's easy and 2 - they have something a child must learn.

You're right, smish. Kids can smell lessons like they smell veggies, and they don't like them. Lessons usually equate something they're being forced to do. Just like that favorite teacher everyone had in school who made learning fun, a "lesson" book has to be a bit of a magic act. They keep the kids eyes focused on something entertaining, while their brain is soaking up something educational.

I think most people who do this the "wrong" way start with the lesson. They want to tailor the story around the lesson, but what they're left with is a big lesson-shaped book with a paper thin story wrapped around it that doesn't do a thing to disguise it. (It didn't work with grandma's socks at Christmas, and it won't work with a kids' book.

Start with the story. Make it good. Make it fun. Make the characters sparkle. THEN weave the lesson in so that it's one thread among the whole tapestry - one that can't be separated from the whole. Make it invisible.

You need something that's odorless, tasteless, colorless, and can go undetected. Have them get to the end of an awesome story they want to tell their friends about, but when they're playing Trivial Pursuit (or whatever) with their family, they suddenly have knowledge they didn't have before. It'll be one of those things they picked up somewhere, but the learning was so organic, they didn't even notice.

suki · Jan 3, 2010

I agree with much of what has been said by Jud, Smish and Cyia. Story first, any message or learning incidental after that.

And I'll add Tv and Books are really not comparable for a whole host of reasons I won't go into....Because, PBS actually is a prime example of how message-centric and overt learning-focus turn kids off after a certain age.

PBS programming trails off once kids start having a discerning nose for message and a knowledge of other channels and the remote control. Really look at how many shows there are in the PBS lineup for kids older than 6? 8? And I'd suggest a comparison of the ratings for shows on other kid-centric channels, that focus on entertainment first, might reinforce what we're saying about books and message.

In books, the best ones really are about entertainment first, and lesson or information-relaying far down the line.

Can a good message be imparted or a spotlight focused on some factual information? Sure, but not at the expense of story first.

~suki

Toothpaste · Jan 3, 2010

I really am in the entertainment camp first and foremost.

But. If an author truly wishes to teach in her novel, she must do so with a deft hand. She must also understand that it is far harder to try to teach something in an effective and subtle manner than write a more straightforward entertaining novel, and that kids can sniff out condescension in an instant.

I also think that if someone points out in a critique to be careful about trying to teach a lesson, said author probably wasn't using that deft a hand in the first place, sorry.

Khanada · Jan 3, 2010

All the good advice I've seen says never teach. I think Cyia hit it right on the nose that people who start with wanting to teach a lesson always seem to mess it up.

I do think I understand what vwyler is saying, though. But I don't know that it works in every genre. Where I like to see it is in the lengthier picture books -- informational fiction. I was researching a fictional picture book about space, & my youngest & I both had a lot of fun with other informational picture books.

If you write a book that a kid really enjoys, then they learn the lesson that reading is fun. That's all they need.

MsJudy · Jan 3, 2010

Hmmm...so many things I want to say in response to this topic.

1) Re: PBS: How many kids over the age of 6 watch PBS if their parents allow them to watch anything else?... I'm not at all convinced that PBS is a very convincing example of how you can teach and entertain at the same time. Most kids I know would much rather watch Spongebob.

2) Re: teaching a lesson... I'm gonna put my teacher hat on now. Kids will not learn ANYTHING if they are bored. Kids will only learn when they are ENGAGED. Good teachers spend a ton of their energy figuring out how to structure lessons so that kids will actively participate. Otherwise it all just slips right past long-term memory and is forgotten.

So...IF you want to teach kids something with your book (and deep down, we probably all do), you still have to work really, really hard to make that something entertaining, engaging and meaningful. You absolutely cannot be pedantic about it. And that's what I think a lot of people miss. They get so wrapped up in the Facts or the Moral that they lose the fun of the story. Books that do well, like the Magic Schoolbus and Magic Treehouse series, integrate the fun and the adventure into the science/history, and there is a purpose for the facts to be in the story. I mean there is a STORY purpose, not a Teaching purpose.

3) ALL BOOKS, EVEN NOVELS FOR ADULTS, ARE TRYING TO TEACH SOMETHING. That is the purpose of storytelling in human society. Cinderella teaches us that patience, kindness and hard work will be rewarded and cruelty will be punished. The Gingerbread Man teaches us that cleverness will defeat arrogance. the Velveteen Rabbit teaches us that Love makes things Real.

Every time we sit down to write a novel, what we believe about life and morality filters into it. I totally push my characters to despair, but they never give in to it because I believe things really do get better if we keep fighting back. So every book I write "teaches" that message: Don't Give Up.

But do I need to remind myself to make each story have that message? No. It comes from who I am and what I believe and what experience has taught me and how I grew up. I couldn't leave it out of the story if I tried, probably.

Will the reader learn that lesson, though? Well, not just because I tell them about it, no. What will teach that lesson is a good story with a character they care about. Nobody has to tell you to be sweet and kind like Cinderella. If you get drawn into the story, you live it for yourself and it becomes part of who you are.

So people who want to teach kids something really need to write good, strong stories. The lessons weave themselves in.

Cyia · Jan 3, 2010

Khanada said:
Where I like to see it is in the lengthier picture books -- informational fiction. I was researching a fictional picture book about space, & my youngest & I both had a lot of fun with other informational picture books.

If you write a book that a kid really enjoys, then they learn the lesson that reading is fun. That's all they need.

This is where The Magic School Bus books rocked. They were fun and educational, but the former was what the kids focused on.

Smish · Jan 3, 2010

Excellent posts, everyone. I started to quote the particularly brilliant bits of each of your posts, but decided it would take too long!

The problem with teaching in novels is that it almost always comes across as preaching. And nobody - adult or child - appreciates being preached at.

Novels still teach, of course, but only because any good novel involves the character growing and learning through the course of the story. As the character grows and learns, so does the reader.

Smish

vwyler · Jan 3, 2010

Folks, please...

At what point in my earlier posts did I say one had to weigh down a story with a preachy message? I merely pointed out that bits of factual information here and there in a book are not necessarily plot killers. I never referred to morals or messages at all. Spicing a story with a few facts is a whole different ballgame from preaching morality. I never argued that the first goal should be to teach. Entertainment always comes first.

As for PBS... many of the programs aired are based on successful book series: Arthur, Clifford, Curious George, The Berenstein Bears... the list goes on. Sure, it's aimed at smaller kids. So what? We weren't discussing the age range of the material, or at least I wasn't.

Let me try and sum up... you can write a fun and entertaining book that has factual information in it (even moral lessons) as long as it's done tastefully. I'm not trying to be confrontational on the issue, FWIW. :e2seesaw:

Smish · Jan 3, 2010

vwyler said:
At what point in my earlier posts did I say one had to weigh down a story with a preachy message? I merely pointed out that bits of factual information here and there in a book are not necessarily plot killers. I never referred to morals or messages at all. Spicing a story with a few facts is a whole different ballgame from preaching morality. I never argued that the first goal should be to teach. Entertainment always comes first.

As for PBS... many of the programs aired are based on successful book series: Arthur, Clifford, Curious George, The Berenstein Bears... the list goes on. Sure, it's aimed at smaller kids. So what? We weren't discussing the age range of the material, or at least I wasn't.

Let me try and sum up... you can write a fun and entertaining book that has factual information in it (even moral lessons) as long as it's done tastefully. I'm not trying to be confrontational on the issue, FWIW.

Vwyler:

This is a discussion forum. We're discussing. We're not accusing you of being preachy in your work or anything of the sort. Your original post simply sparked an interesting topic for discussion. And you did ask the question, "Why not teach?" Don't ask questions, if you don't want answers.

We're not being confrontational, either. Promise.

Smish

Khanada · Jan 3, 2010

Actually, my 8 & 11 year olds love PBS. One of my 11-year old's favorite shows is Biz Kids. They both love Electric Company (COMPLETELY different from what I remember as a kid -- the only thing that seems familiar to me is the name!). And they loved Word Girl up until we started seeing a lot of repeats.

They're not total geeks though - another favorite is Phineas & Ferb. I'm convinced that show airs 24 hours/day on one channel or another.

Did I say 8 & 11?? They're 7 & 10. Apparently, I need some sleep...

Amarie · Jan 4, 2010

Interesting discussion-In editing my book, my editor and I went back and forth over the bits of history I incorporated in the manuscript. Some of them were taken out for pacing reasons, but we left some in because I thought they were important both for interest and to build up a more complete setting and a more complex story. I don't have any reviews yet, so we'll have to see how the whole thing works. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that the history bits won't detract from the story. I don't think they do, but I'm kind of a history geek anyway.

Ton Lew Lepsnaci · Jan 4, 2010

Melia said:
Interesting discussion-In editing my book, my editor and I went back and forth over the bits of history I incorporated in the manuscript. Some of them were taken out for pacing reasons, but we left some in because I thought they were important both for interest and to build up a more complete setting and a more complex story. I don't have any reviews yet, so we'll have to see how the whole thing works. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that the history bits won't detract from the story. I don't think they do, but I'm kind of a history geek anyway.

My daughter took a lot of facts from reading YA with history, to the point of doing very well on unexpected questions in a history test. These were simply good YA stories, not intended for teaching but with accurate historic backgrounds. I aim to have my writing include interesting facts when appropriate to raise curiosity or inspire to go down a new path. Kids take away so much (while having fun) from literature. Every writer decides of course what they want to achieve. If it can be done without hurting the story, why not include an extra dimension that can spark a young mind to explore new avenues in addition to learning more vocabulary and social relations/ethical issues (something valuable most books already bring)? Some facts that prompt to think, inspire and have direct links to the real world, definitely provide those sparks. Writers can be magicians in that way too.

MsJudy · Jan 4, 2010

Since this discussion grew out of another thread, I should provide some clarifying history here. The original poster included a comment about her purpose in writing a certain fiction story was to teach kids about science topics/get kids who weren't interested in science normally to consider it. I knew exactly what she meant, she wasn't trying to preach in any way, but she was struggling with how and when to include those science facts so it enhanced the story without getting in the way of it. So that's when I cautioned her to just make sure the story always came first and was the main reason she was writing.

Nobody EVER said stories can't also teach. As I said yesterday, EVERY story teaches something, whether or not that's what the author set out to do. So, if you're writing a book about tarantulas because you love tarantulas and you know lots of kids love tarantulas and the main character's problem revolves around getting and keeping a pet tarantula, well, then, of course it will be a natural part of the story to include facts about tarantulas, and your enthusiasm for the animals will be contagious and will make squeamish readers think, Oh, maybe those horrible creatures aren't so bad after all.

You don't have to try too hard to drive home the point. It flows naturally from the subject matter.

vwyler, you posed a question. It's a good question, and most of the folks on this thread are crazy-passionate about good writing for kids. So we all thought long and hard about your question, and jumped in with strong opinions. It's part of the process of sorting through what's important to us in our writing, and how to do it well. Sorry if it felt like we were ganging up on you!

But I think Melia really clarified what the real question is. It's not "Can't a book teach and entertain at the same time?" Of course it can, and any good book will, one way or another. So the real question is, "How do we accomplish that?"

That's what the original poster was working on. How many facts do you include at a time? How do you weave them in so they don't shift the tone of the story, or slow down the pacing, or interrupt the drama? Are there ways to weave them in that makes them more natural? etc.

p.s. Melia! congrats on the sequel possibilities! Yahoo!!!! Your book is definitely on my TBR list--let us know when it hits the shelves.

Ton Lew Lepsnaci · Jan 4, 2010

Hi vwyler, I am writing a story with a similar goal. It focuses in part on getting kids interested in the process of science (scientific investigation) rather than a particular strand of science. What is your goal? It may help to discuss more. Can we get a link to the other thread? Perhaps the info is contained there already.

Smish · Jan 4, 2010

Melia said:
Interesting discussion-In editing my book, my editor and I went back and forth over the bits of history I incorporated in the manuscript. Some of them were taken out for pacing reasons, but we left some in because I thought they were important both for interest and to build up a more complete setting and a more complex story. I don't have any reviews yet, so we'll have to see how the whole thing works. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that the history bits won't detract from the story. I don't think they do, but I'm kind of a history geek anyway.

I'm sure the history works very well with your story -- because knowing the history helps the reader know the character.

I think that's probably a good test to apply to our own writing. Does the 'teaching' material lead to a better understanding of the character/story? Or is it simply there to teach/make a point? Is it still the character's story, or has the author taken over?

Good points everyone! I love AW.

Smish

Smish · Jan 4, 2010

Ton Lew Lepsnaci said:
Hi vwyler, I am writing a story with a similar goal. It focuses in part on getting kids interested in the process of science (scientific investigation) rather than a particular strand of science. What is your goal? It may help to discuss more. Can we get a link to the other thread? Perhaps the info is contained there already.

The original thread was in Share Your Work. The discussion here sprang from one of JudScotKev's comments (which is posted above). I then moved the discussion here, because we were hijacking the SYW thread, which isn't fair to the person whose work was being critiqued. All the posts related to the discussion have been posted here.

Smish

Kitty Pryde · Jan 4, 2010

What makes a kid turn the page isn't "Wow I really want to learn more science right now!" What makes a kid turn the page is "Oh my gosh I have to find out what happens next!" If the unnatural insertion of facts interferes with that drive for even one sentence, then the writing fails.

Let me cite a personal example. When I was a kid I really loved "Maniac Magee" by Jerry Spinelli (and just about anything else by him, but Maniac in particular). I read it numerous times. It's a hilarious and moving story about a kid without a family on the run around two small east coast towns. He lives in a zoo cage with a buffalo, he can outrun anyone in town, he has a magical ability to untangle knots, he wins a lifetime supply of free pizza but he's allergic to pizza, he ends up crashing with various weird families who will take him in. Great.

I reread it as an adult, and no! It's not a hilarious adventure story. Well, it is. But simultaneously it's a really serious story about homelessness, and the impact of racism on the community and the individual. Holy crap! The child protagonist is actually suicidal at one point. Did I take those lessons to heart and learn something? I am 100% sure I did, but while I read it all I cared about was a character on an adventure. If I had gotten a whiff of A Very Special Lesson About Tolerance, the book would have sucked.

Cyia · Jan 5, 2010

I think writers need to acknowledge that kids don't need a lot of prodding to absorb information when they're interested. It's a natural process.

Think of those ultra popular Anime style TV-series built around gaming systems. There can be rules within rules and 200-300 characters/cards/monsters in the game, each with its own dossier of powers and weaknesses, and the average fan of those shows can give you a rundown of all of them at will. It's all information that could be forcefed and learned by repetition, but would be boring that way, yet given 3, maybe 4 half hour exposures to it, it sticks.

Solid information about science and nature and math and whatever can be done the same way. If knowledge is the key to saving the hero, then the kids will find a way to get that knowledge.

MsJudy · Jan 5, 2010

Another example: Nate the Great mysteries. In the first one, Nate solves the mystery because he knows red and yellow mix together to make orange. At the back of the book, there are additional "fun activities" on color mixing, if kids are interested. The information is there because of the story, not the other way around.

BetsyJ · Jan 5, 2010

Well, maybe...

"Cinderella teaches us that patience, kindness and hard work will be rewarded and cruelty will be punished. The Gingerbread Man teaches us that cleverness will defeat arrogance. the Velveteen Rabbit teaches us that Love makes things Real."

Hmmm. From my point of view, those aren't the lessons that we learn from those stories:

1. Cinderella teaches you to beware of stepmothers and step-siblings and that physcial BEAUTY is rewarded in the end.

2. The Gingerbread Man teaches you to watch out for strangers who will lie and take advantage of you if given half a chance.

3. The Velveteen Rabbit is similar to The Secret. It teaches you to blur the line between fantasy and reality. Just keep wishing hard enough and your dreams will come true. It's kind of the child's version of The Secret. (Sorry! Actually I love The Velveteen Rabbit.)

It's overstating the case to say that children's stories "shouldn't teach." Books can have a theme. They can also convey interesting facts and information. And they can also suggest a set of ethics or a moral point of view. What kids don't like is being preached at. I've also noticed that if you tell a rip-roaring good story, a message will creep its way in and even the author doesn't always notice it.

Ellen Jackson
www.ellenjackson.net

MsJudy · Jan 6, 2010

Betsy, you make a really good point. When it comes to theme/moral/ethics, what we learn really depends on who we are, the perspective that the reader brings to the story. The lessons I gave as examples are closer to what the original audience was supposed to get out of the stories; your lessons are much closer to what we modern readers see in them.

In fact, I would say that's true even when what we're trying to teach are facts and information. One reader will come to the book already knowing everything there is to know about tarantulas, while another will come as an almost blank slate, or filled to the brim with misconceptions. Each of those kids will take away from the book something a little different.

vwyler · Jan 6, 2010

Ton Lew Lepsnaci said:
Hi vwyler, I am writing a story with a similar goal. It focuses in part on getting kids interested in the process of science (scientific investigation) rather than a particular strand of science. What is your goal? It may help to discuss more. Can we get a link to the other thread? Perhaps the info is contained there already.

Actually, Ton, I asked a question in the SYW section in regard to a comment made about another writer's work. I don't try to teach anything when I write. It requires knowledge to teach, and I have very little of that. I merely said that I didn't believe a few lines of factual information here and there would scare away readers, children or otherwise.

For example, this line:

As the bus trundled over the Poplar Street Bridge, Anna looked out the window and saw the Gateway Arch: 630 feet of stainless-steel, gleaming in the warm, afternoon sun.

The kids now know how tall the Arch is, and what its exterior is made of. A pretty painless lesson, I'd say. Not a wealth of information, but perhaps just enough to make the reader want to learn more about the Arch. Or not. Maybe this is a poor example, but you get my drift.

If I sounded foul, I didn't mean to. Proper self-expression has always been a challenge for me.

Ton Lew Lepsnaci · Jan 7, 2010

That example seems pretty well balanced to me

I have no idea of the SYW background, but the topic sure sparked off interesting comments here.

I like the idea that readers can take away facts from stories. It doesn't always need to be like this of course, but it if it happens to be a story element, it offers extra value to the reader.

I recall reading cartoons as a child where the author included facts about his travels in a natural way. It provided insight in other cultures, other countries etc. But the stories were wild fantasy adventures based in settings the author visited, not aimed at teaching, simply enriched by "true" settings (drawings of the actual countries and story elements.)

Many stories have this to some degree. Considering how much time kids spent on games/books, adding interesting facts (in a well balanced story-comes-first way) will enrich the experience.

There is a whole spectrum, from spicing up stories with facts to story based teaching (which is a different context from writing of course). It is interesting to consider how far stories can go on this route in a commercial setting. Some cartoons have gone quite a distance (horrible history/science series), to the point of being less story based and more fact-providing in a fun way.

Lindzy1954 · Jan 7, 2010

As a newbie to this thread, and just starting out on the long road of querying my work to agents, this is a theme I have struggled with. I think while working on the chapter book series I am developing I have come to conclude that anything in a book that encourages learning (either factual or moral) can successful with the right storyline, characters and perhaps just a bit of moderation. Based on the brilliance I see in my three children daily, they are smart and perceptive and frequently will pick up on even the most subtle of themes. And so for me, it seems as though the phrase "everything in moderation" can apply to more than caloric intake, especially when one is referring to lessons/morals in children's literature.

'Teaching' in children's fiction

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