up to $400 to sentence structure check my 50,000 word novel(ette)

cly3d · Feb 6, 2013

darn iPhone. Always doesn't let u sleep with email alerts

TMCan, no offense taken whatsoever!

I mentioned YA only in response to the previous poster.
In fact I'm a bit on edge with even tick marking the YA category on this book because there is some suggestive sex thrown in, not that I'm naive or anything!

Ravenheart · Feb 6, 2013

I read some of your story and the idea is interesting. I feel it could be executed in such a way that even though you're talking about the allure of technology it doesn't have to be overly technical. The anime girl, RPG fantasy chick that some gamer is into - you write that idea without the over use of technical terms or even focusing on the technology as much. You could humanize the story which I think would really engage and appeal to a larger audience.

Perhaps the MC works for a software testing firm in some [insert city of your choice here] and you could make it into an urban fantasy. Maybe there are secondary or supporting characters at this firm that could really make the story interesting. If you're trying to gear it towards the tech crowd you could gear it towards where his obsession started with old school tech. Modeming and WWIV boards were around long before the Internet became popular. Whoops... Guess I just gave away that I was an original modemer chick. :Shrug:

Note that I didn't read that far so I have no idea where the story goes.

Just a thought...

cly3d said:
Thanks Oldhack for the honest review.
I realize the writing so far is also riddled with cliches, most sentences begin the same way, and these are only some of the missing things even I could spot. The book is aimed at a technically inclined audience and so the hard science is going to anyway overwhelm the story/ character arc.
However this is not an excuse, and I will work as far as I can on improving the literary aspects of the writing.

Part of the reason for paying at this stage is so that I can learn the mechanics as well.
I'd be grateful for a few pointers on what you think are the areas that need priority addressing.
All opinions can only be a good thing in the long term for me.

Kind regards

TMCan · Feb 6, 2013

If it helps any, minimum sex is ok in YA. Just as long as it isn't graphic.

wampuscat · Feb 6, 2013

cly3d said:
I'm aiming for converts... That's what I mean by the FB crowd

If your goal is to convert nonreaders into readers, good luck. It will be much appreciated if you manage it. That said, I think you'd be limiting yourself to set that aim and not put in the research and work to appeal to the already existing markets.

Your idea of a "crowdsourced" book is interesting. So is your goal for people to tell you how to write/influence the outcome of your book?

Also, The book isn't exactly for only the vampire reading YA audience.
Or the romance section of the bookstore.

I'm not sure what you're trying to imply here.

HistorySleuth · Feb 6, 2013

cly3d said:
Well, it's only the conviction that will keep me going, or else my experimental card is worthless.
(P.S I've already written a science book that's doing kinda ok: www.amazon.com/dp/1470150778 and oh boy is it ever riddled with typos and grammar boo boos. But I suppose you learn from your mistakes, hence the need to edit this one by more than one set of eyes.)

Regards

I take from this that since your previous science related book is doing well you feel that the book you are writing now might be of interest as well? If your first book is as riddled with boo boos as you say, the people who bought the first book most likely will not buy the new book. They will assume there will be mistakes.

I checked your link. You are using Amazon (Createspace and for Kindle). You could fix your mistakes and re-upload correct? It seems you are not too bothered by it. Your reading public will judge you as a writer by your writing.

cly3d · Feb 6, 2013

HistorySleuth said:
your first book is as riddled with boo boos as you say, the people who bought the first book most likely will not buy the new book. They will assume there will be mistakes.

The audience is not the same. The firs book was for 3d film makers an extremely niche audience who want info. Even though I admit to punctuation and typos, it does not detract from the info presented, as much as one would think

I checked your link. You are using Amazon (Createspace and for Kindle). You could fix your mistakes and re-upload correct? It seems you are not too bothered by it. Your reading public will judge you as a writer by your writing.

I've updated the kindle version as best I could. The revised version of the book will be professionally edited.

cly3d · Feb 6, 2013

wampuscat said:
If your goal is to convert nonreaders into readers, good luck. It will be much appreciated if you manage it. That said, I think you'd be limiting yourself to set that aim and not put in the research and work to appeal to the already existing markets.

I understand wampuscat.
I'm still actively working on getting a right balance of both. That's the crowd sourcing I'm doing. To garner opinions on the story, writing and science presentation. It's not an interactive audience influenced outcome kind of thing (as some tv programmes have experimented with)

cly3d · Feb 6, 2013

Ravenheart said:
I read some of your story and the idea is interesting. I feel it could be executed in such a way that even though you're talking about the allure of technology it doesn't have to be overly technical. The anime girl, RPG fantasy chick that some gamer is into - you write that idea without the over use of technical terms or even focusing on the technology as much. You could humanize the story which I think would really engage and appeal to a larger audience.

This is what I have tried my best to do, and still working on.
Hence the idea of putting up the WIP and crowd sourcing critique.
Unfortunately I'm getting more opinions from people who have not yet read at least the first complete chapter! (Not saying this at you, as your actually offering helpful advice)

Modeming and WWIV boards were around long before the Internet became popular. Whoops... Guess I just gave away that I was an original modemer chick.

Note that I didn't read that far so I have no idea where the story goes.

Just a thought...

Ahh acoustic couplers!! I miss mine and the Commodore 64 I had back in the day!

cornflake · Feb 6, 2013

I haven't read any of it - I prefer to read things here rather than from clickthroughs - but I don't think that has anything to do with one aspect we're discussing.

The length thing I find kind of odd. You say you want to garner an audience of non-readers for this, and you also believe that most people or most teens or most people under 40 (I'm sort of confused on this point), don't want to read anything long. You also mentioned that yes, you realize there are many people in the YA section of a bookstore but that those people are, in your view, readers, not the ones you're hoping to draw.

I *think* I have that correct, though I'm not positive.

That said, presuming I kind of do - where do you think the Twilight readers came from? Where do you think Harry Potter readers came from? They're both longform novels credited with drawing large audiences of those who weren't big readers beforehand.

Do you think everyone not in the bookstore/buying books is someone who doesn't want to read *because* books are too lengthy? I'm not sure of your thought process. You also mention people looking at multiple devices as a reason or explanation as to why people don't want longer books, but ereaders are hot sellers, and many readers I know go with both platforms. I know a number of kids who are voracious readers - most have both an ereader and piles of books. Some prefer the physical books, some the ereader, some use both pretty evenly, same as the adults I know really.

cly3d · Feb 6, 2013

Please don't take this the wrong way...
But... this thread seems to have gone quite a way away from the original topic, and is in danger of becoming unusually long and redundant if:

cornflake said:
I haven't read any of it - I prefer to read things here rather than from clickthroughs - but I don't think that has anything to do with one aspect we're discussing. [?QUOTE]
Take time to read through the thread from the start. You will realize I need 50 posts before I can post in SYW here.
Also - the very first post in this thread has a link to an online readable version (Authonomy)
We've just wasted many bytes of data repeating this info ;-)

The length thing I find kind of odd. You say you want to garner an audience of non-readers for this

Click to expand...

Find the place where I say garner and then it's context.

, and you also believe that most people or most teens or most people under 40 (I'm sort of confused on this point), don't want to read anything long.

Click to expand...

Yes, this is in my short research and from observing. It's not the gospel truth, but it's something I'm taking into consideration as one of the driving factors in basing the length of the book. Also the last part of your sentence is not what I said.

You also mentioned that yes, you realize there are many people in the YA section of a bookstore but that those people are, in your view, readers, not the ones you're hoping to draw.

Click to expand...

Incorrect summary on your part. I said I want to convert more non-readers.

I *think* I have that correct, though I'm not positive.

Click to expand...

ahh this disclaimer made me waste a few more bytes of data above

That said, presuming I kind of do - where do you think the Twilight readers came from? Where do you think Harry Potter readers came from? They're both longform novels credited with drawing large audiences of those who weren't big readers beforehand.

Click to expand...

Where did I say that longform books are a bane? is there hard science in any of these titles, or do they depend more on painting a picture of a fantasy world.

Do you think everyone not in the bookstore/buying books is someone who doesn't want to read *because* books are too lengthy?

Click to expand...

Insinuation wrongly attributed to me.

I'm not sure of your thought process. You also mention people looking at multiple devices as a reason or explanation as to why people don't want longer books, but ereaders are hot sellers, and many readers I know go with both platforms.

Click to expand...

The part between the bracketing commas (yes i'm learning to identify these now!) and the part after it are not in the context that I mention as the reason why I believe that shorter stories will convert more non-reading public.
Read my post above for the correct context of the multiple devices argument.

I know a number of kids who are voracious readers - most have both an ereader and piles of books. Some prefer the physical books, some the ereader, some use both pretty evenly, same as the adults I know really.

Click to expand...

I'm hoping that by putting out a book of 50,000 words that I manage to draw this audience too. I'm not shunting them out, neither should they just because the "book" is not fat. Who knows.. with e-readers, it really blurs the page length argument doesn't it?

Kind Regards.

cornflake · Feb 6, 2013

cly3d said:
Please don't take this the wrong way...
But... this thread seems to have gone quite a way away from the original topic, and is in danger of becoming unusually long and redundant if:

cornflake said:

I haven't read any of it - I prefer to read things here rather than from clickthroughs - but I don't think that has anything to do with one aspect we're discussing.

Click to expand...

Take time to read through the thread from the start. You will realize I need 50 posts before I can post in SYW here.
Also - the very first post in this thread has a link to an online readable version (Authonomy)
We've just wasted many bytes of data repeating this info ;-)

Find the place where I say garner and then it's context.

Yes, this is in my short research and from observing. It's not the gospel truth, but it's something I'm taking into consideration as one of the driving factors in basing the length of the book. Also the last part of your sentence is not what I said.

Incorrect summary on your part. I said I want to convert more non-readers.

ahh this disclaimer made me waste a few more bytes of data above

Where did I say that longform books are a bane? is there hard science in any of these titles, or do they depend more on painting a picture of a fantasy world.

Insinuation wrongly attributed to me.

The part between the bracketing commas (yes i'm learning to identify these now!) and the part after it are not in the context that I mention as the reason why I believe that shorter stories will convert more non-reading public.
Read my post above for the correct context of the multiple devices argument.

I'm hoping that by putting out a book of 50,000 words that I manage to draw this audience too. I'm not shunting them out, neither should they just because the "book" is not fat. Who knows.. with e-readers, it really blurs the page length argument doesn't it?

Kind Regards.

O....k.

I read the thread. That doesn't change the fact that I, as I mentioned, prefer to read here and not from other places. How you interpret that to mean I didn't read the thread, I have absolutely no idea, but I also don't get how you turned a few of the things you quoted into what you seem to be responding to. I'm not particularly inclined to go through and clear it up; I don't think it'd help.

cly3d · Feb 6, 2013

Just food for thought.. nothing more..

According to an Associated Press Poll and The Washington Post, “One in four adults read no books at all in the past year. Of those who did read, older people (mostly women) were most avid, and religious works and popular fiction were the top choices.”

Similar studies tell a story that the average American reads one book a year and only half bought a book last year. Books are in trouble. (Note to self: I may need to reconsider this book writing thing.)

Full article here: http://www.firstbestordifferent.com/blog/?p=1051

best books under 200 pages: http://www.goodreads.com/list/show/19194.Best_Books_Under_200_Pages

Another list: http://jccc.libguides.com/content.php?pid=66532

..and this is just from a cursory Google search on the subject.

*Now* I'm not saying that longform books or sticking to wordcount in a genre is *BS*.. I am saying that in my case, I believe that in keeping my book at around the 50000 mark, it will be exciting enough to draw in new readers in today's attention deficit market.

Regards.

cly3d · Feb 6, 2013

cornflake said:
O....k.

I read the thread. That doesn't change the fact that I, as I mentioned, prefer to read here and not from other places. How you interpret that to mean I didn't read the thread, I have absolutely no idea, but I also don't get how you turned a few of the things you quoted into what you seem to be responding to. I'm not particularly inclined to go through and clear it up; I don't think it'd help.

That's fair enough cornflake. I respect your stance on it. Thank you for replying

cornflake · Feb 6, 2013

The statistics about how many people in this country say they don't read aren't new - we've all seen them plenty. There's a new survey every year and some years they get more play than others; the first big Oprah Book years, ereader years, etc.

I don't see what this has to do with your idea that these people will be enticed by a novelette rather than a novel. I asked you that above and you responded that it was an "insinuation wrongly attributed to me," which I didn't and don't understand as a response.

cly3d · Feb 6, 2013

cornflake said:
I don't see what this has to do with your idea that these people will be enticed by a novelette rather than a novel. I asked you that above and you responded that it was an "insinuation wrongly attributed to me," which I didn't and don't understand as a response.

for your convenience i'm copying below my paot #17 from page 1

Good advice Thothguard and I mean it.
I am trying to balance both. That's why I believe that for the audience that I think the story is aimed at, the 50,000 to 60,000 word count is a good sweet spot.

Most on facebook these days barely want to read, much less read long novels. I realize this won't make sense to many on a writing forum as we all love to read, but if I am to address a market that I hope to convert, I have to experiment.

Note the part that goes ..,"but if I am to address... and especially the last word in that sentence.

Regards.

If you agree, i'll stop now.

Old Hack · Feb 6, 2013

cly3d said:
Please don't take this the wrong way...
But... this thread seems to have gone quite a way away from the original topic, and is in danger of becoming unusually long and redundant [...]
We've just wasted many bytes of data repeating this info ;-)

cly3d, with all due respect you're often not clear in your phrasing, and that makes it difficult sometimes to follow the thread. It's also often difficult for people to understand the nuances of others' comments, so there's bound to be a bit of repetition in threads on discussion boards.

cly3d said:
Just food for thought.. nothing more..

According to an Associated Press Poll and The Washington Post, “One in four adults read no books at all in the past year. Of those who did read, older people (mostly women) were most avid, and religious works and popular fiction were the top choices.”

Similar studies tell a story that the average American reads one book a year and only half bought a book last year. Books are in trouble. (Note to self: I may need to reconsider this book writing thing.)

Click to expand...

I've not read all your links, but note that the quote you provided, which I've repeated above, doesn't imply that people prefer shorter books: it says that most people don't read at all. It doesn't logically follow from that point that you'd encourage them to read if you gave them shorter books.

I wonder if you're reading too much into things you're reading, both in the links you provided, and in the comments here. You might want to step back a little, read things more carefully and more critically, and see if that helps.

cly3d · Feb 6, 2013

OldHack.
Read the article in that first link, not just the quote. Yes, again it's only one opinion (that of the marketing blogger who wrote it).

But then again, aren't we all dealing in opinions here?
Logically I think yes, it's worth an experiment to see if a story, told in a shorter page count, will make people want to test the waters of "reading".

That's what I believe in (my opinion).

You might want to step back a little, read things more carefully and more critically, and see if that helps.

This is sound advice, regardless. I will pay heed to it.
Thanks again.

Old Hack · Feb 6, 2013

cly3d said:
for your convenience i'm copying below my paot #17 from page 1

Note the part that goes ..,"but if I am to address... and especially the last word in that sentence.

Regards.

If you agree, i'll stop now.

What I note, cly3d, is that you've not quoted "the part that goes ..,"but if I am to address... " so I really have no idea what you're referring to here, and I have no idea what "the last word in that sentence" is because I don't know which sentence you're referring to.

I'd appreciate it if you'd post with more clarity in future. It would really help us all to help you. Thanks.

I'd also like to point out that your last sentence--"If you agree, i'll stop now"--is teeming with passive aggression, and that really doesn't go down well at AW.

I suggest you go and read the Newbie Guide, and then participate in threads other than those which you started. Go and help a few other members. You'll benefit from it.

Old Hack · Feb 6, 2013

cly3d said:
OldHack.
Read the article in that first link, not just the quote. Yes, again it's only one opinion (that of the marketing blogger who wrote it).

When you make a claim (in this case, yours was that you thought that many people would prefer to read shorter books, or words to that effect) and then provide quotes to support it, it's usual for the quotes you provide to actually support your argument. The quote you provided not only failed to support your argument, it didn't even mention the issue of longer books.

To then direct someone to go and read a longer article in order to have your point proved is dismissive and shows a marked lack of debating skills.

But then again, aren't we all dealing in opinions here?

Some of us are talking from a standpoint of decades of experience, knowledge, and understanding of publishing. Others are relying on unfounded assumptions.

Logically I think yes, it's worth an experiment to see if a story, told in a shorter page count, will make people want to test the waters of "reading".

Many people just aren't interested in reading books. They don't see books of 50,000 words more appealling than books of 80,000 words: they just don't want to read.

If all that was required to convert non-readers to readers was publishing shorter books, trade publishers would publish thousands of them every year.

You're attempting to reinvent the wheel and make it square here, I'm afraid.

cly3d · Feb 6, 2013

Thanks OldHack.
This thread actually had served it's purpose much earlier. I found two editors who are working on the book.

In that sense I did "help" a member or two, even if passively.
But apologies to those I may have offended in defending my argument on why I choose to use a 50,000 word book.

Jamesaritchie · Feb 7, 2013

cly3d said:
1) I did not want to go over 50,000 words. As the book is targeted at today's fickle attention span demographic

I don't know where writers get this idea, but it's completely wrong. Attention spans are no shorter than ever, and the great majority of readers prefer long novels, not short ones.

One look at what's on the bestseller list should convince anyone that short novels do not sell nearly as well a slong ones. Tis is true in print, and with e-books.

For those who enjoy reading, 50,000 words is way to short. For those who don't enjoy reading, 50,000 words is way, way too long. You're targeting a group who won't read you book at any length.

Books are for readers, and trying to target anyone else is just silly.

quicklime · Feb 8, 2013

cly3d said:
Agree with all your other points. On this one, I'll play the experimental card.
if no one breaks the mold, we'll either have literary masterpieces with no real science, or we'll have space operas that won't contribute to real science is my opinion!

I'm willing to take the chance that readers will put this book down and have something to think about (other than a missing character arc) The plot is there!

Well, it's only the conviction that will keep me going, or else my experimental card is worthless.
(P.S I've already written a science book that's doing kinda ok: www.amazon.com/dp/1470150778 and oh boy is it ever riddled with typos and grammar boo boos. But I suppose you learn from your mistakes, hence the need to edit this one by more than one set of eyes.)

as a scientist, no....i read Nature for cutting edge science, if I'm reading a book I want a book. The two can be mixed, but you can't write a crap book with excellent science and hold an audience the way you can an excellent book with crap science (thinking of Jurassic Park). If you want it to sell you may need to raise the bar on your writing (haven't seen it, but it sounds that way)....you can't just expect everyone else to come to you.

aibrean · Feb 11, 2013

cly3d said:
Hi thotguard51,
The song is a direct embed from youtube, which I think is allowed (otherwise youtube does disable embedding) same goes for the Dido song.

You have a point here. I will investigate more. I always thought that youtube is embedded, and if your not charging access to the site to view the embedded video it was Ok.

Unless it's a YT video from the actual musician (official YT channels), no it's not legal (for the person to post it on YouTube) and by law the copyright holder (or pretty much anyone else) can report the YT video and have it pulled. Technically I don't think you would be held liable as you didn't post the video on YouTube. You are just embedding directly and the source and stream comes from YT.

up to $400 to sentence structure check my 50,000 word novel(ette)

cly3d

Ravenheart

Trying to figure it out.

TMCan

wampuscat

Recovering adjective addict

HistorySleuth

Researching History's Mysteries

cly3d

cly3d

cly3d

cornflake

practical experience, FTW

cly3d

cornflake

practical experience, FTW

cly3d

cly3d

cornflake

practical experience, FTW

cly3d

Old Hack

Such a nasty woman

cly3d

Old Hack

Such a nasty woman

Old Hack

Such a nasty woman

cly3d

Jamesaritchie

quicklime

all out of fucks to give

aibrean

Author, Designer, Imaginative Being