I've been doing some reseach on British history and have found a lot of, "bad blood" between the Irish and the English, most specifically the Irish Potato Famine. Until I found that, I never knew there had been problems between Irish and English...Are there still problems between the Irish and English today? And if so, what kinds? If there are, I'm going to have to alter my current story a bit...
English/Irish relations
- Thread starter wolf_heart
- Start date
Start with the wikipedia history of Ireland and start reading. You've got about 900 years of history to catch up with.
Boy, have you got a lot of work ahead of you.
There are a great many bones of contention right up to the present day... not least the Northern Ireland situation.
And it goes back much further than the famine. Do a search for Cromwell and Ireland for just one example.
Heres a small starter essay for you that outlines some but not all of the issues.
http://www.newstatesman.com/200005220051
- Joined
- Jan 19, 2009
- Messages
- 9,251
- Reaction score
- 7,297
Anglo-Irish relations and "bad blood" goes back long before the Great Famine. Oliver Cromwell slaughtering loads of Catholics during the 17th Century, for starters. As for today. The ceasefire still holds although, imho, there will always be men of violence on both sides who wish to carry on the conflict. I couldn't even pretend to have a grasp on the history, Ireland was invaded and occupied by loads of different parties in the past - the Celts, the Vikings, the Normans, etc. Some assimilated better than others.
If you get a chance, get hold of a copy of "Ireland, a Terrible Beauty is born" (or something like that), by the great Conor Cruise O'Brien. It gives a very good explanation of the roots of 'The Troubles'
A good chunk of Ireland is essentially occupied territory held by the UK.
The English and the Irish more or less ignored each other until the Norman invasion in 1066, and it's been a struggle ever since, with religious overtones, as well as political, and wrong on every side.
- Joined
- Jan 19, 2009
- Messages
- 9,251
- Reaction score
- 7,297
It's a bit more complicated than that.
Six counties are "occupied territory", mainly at the wish of the Protestant Majority, rightly or wrongly.
It's a long-standing relationship of mutual distrust, I think. The Irish have many bones of conention.
Queen Elizabeth--as well as other Tudors--spent a lot resources trying to quell Irish rebellions. The Earl of Essex was sent over and came back in disgrace after making an ill-advised peace treaty. Just an example of the interplay between the two.
For much more recent stuff, look up Kilmainham Gaol, and it should give you a good jumping off point to learn about the struggle for Irish independence.
I personally would love to learn more about Irish history; what I do know comes from my studies of English history and from my very short (and very fun) trip to Dublin.
Queen Elizabeth--as well as other Tudors--spent a lot resources trying to quell Irish rebellions. The Earl of Essex was sent over and came back in disgrace after making an ill-advised peace treaty. Just an example of the interplay between the two.
For much more recent stuff, look up Kilmainham Gaol, and it should give you a good jumping off point to learn about the struggle for Irish independence.
I personally would love to learn more about Irish history; what I do know comes from my studies of English history and from my very short (and very fun) trip to Dublin.
As they've only in recent years begun to bring soldiers back from Northern Ireland, i'd say yes... Not to mention Ireland being NI and Eire (the Republic)... If you go onto the BBC news site and search for the NI conflict, you'll find alot of info. From bombings, occupations and the IRA (the paramilitary side of things).
NI is is devolved (i think) but still under UK rule as a whole, like Scotland and Wales; where as Eire is independent, uses the Euro etc.
Here's a couple of links that might help:
The day-to-day NI news page http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/default.stm
History of the Troubles http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/recent/troubles/
The day-to-day NI news page http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/default.stm
History of the Troubles http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/recent/troubles/
it's been...
a long sad tale of religious bigotry starting with the Synod of Whitby and growing steadily worse.
And Oliver Cromwell's record is mild compared to earlier and later ones.
a long sad tale of religious bigotry starting with the Synod of Whitby and growing steadily worse.
And Oliver Cromwell's record is mild compared to earlier and later ones.
I should point out that as a Celticist, I'm sorta biased.
I read modern Irish, but to me, Ireland is "properly" divided into four regions, with Meath in the middle.
That said, I do know the difference between the Ulaid and the Ulster Irish, and I do understand all the ramifications of the Pale.
All of them.
I read modern Irish, but to me, Ireland is "properly" divided into four regions, with Meath in the middle.
That said, I do know the difference between the Ulaid and the Ulster Irish, and I do understand all the ramifications of the Pale.
All of them.
- Joined
- Jan 19, 2009
- Messages
- 9,251
- Reaction score
- 7,297
I understand the sympathy people have for the appalling way the Irish have been treated over the centuries, after all I'm part Irish myself all the way back to the family roots in Roscommon. According to my father, there's even a family Banshee.
However, having lived in England during the 80s when the IRA were engaged in their attacks on the mainland, I lost what romantic notions I once held towards the IRA as "freedom fighters". I was in London when the Baltic Exchange bomb went off, I heard it three miles away, and it is not a sound I am likely to forget.
There is no 'black and white', there are bad people on both sides and there are a lot of myths and misconceptions that have arisen, like Chinese Whispers, the further away one is from the battlefield, the more the stories become muddled. A former colleague of mine was a Protestant from Portstewart who told me that, if the six counties were taken back into the Republic her family would return to England, as would many others but, I've also sat in the house of a friend in Limerick and heard her (Irish Catholic)friends say that they would not want the Six Counties back because of the problems the Irish government could inherit. Incidentally, they also told me the story about the American tourist wanting to take a picture of their children,telling them to take their shoes off, so the tourist could go back home and show their friends picture of poor, oppressed, barefoot little Irish children.
However, having lived in England during the 80s when the IRA were engaged in their attacks on the mainland, I lost what romantic notions I once held towards the IRA as "freedom fighters". I was in London when the Baltic Exchange bomb went off, I heard it three miles away, and it is not a sound I am likely to forget.
There is no 'black and white', there are bad people on both sides and there are a lot of myths and misconceptions that have arisen, like Chinese Whispers, the further away one is from the battlefield, the more the stories become muddled. A former colleague of mine was a Protestant from Portstewart who told me that, if the six counties were taken back into the Republic her family would return to England, as would many others but, I've also sat in the house of a friend in Limerick and heard her (Irish Catholic)friends say that they would not want the Six Counties back because of the problems the Irish government could inherit. Incidentally, they also told me the story about the American tourist wanting to take a picture of their children,telling them to take their shoes off, so the tourist could go back home and show their friends picture of poor, oppressed, barefoot little Irish children.
Even later than the 1980s, in fact. This is what my home city looked like on 15 June 1996 (a Saturday, the day before Father's Day and the day before a major European soccer match, when the IRA chose - knowing that the busy city centre would be full of children and foreign tourists and that they would therefore be assured of a large audience - to detonate a 1500 kilogram fertiliser bomb at 11.15 am right in the middle of the shopping district) :http://bbc.co.uk/manchester/content/image_galleries/150606_manchester_bomb_gallery.shtml
I don't know what the OP was thinking of writing, but (in common with a number of the commentators above) I suggest s/he gets down to some serious (that is, several years) of research before even touching this subject if s/he was unaware of the very existence of "the Irish Question".
I would suggest going all the way back to Edward I. Also; Ireland's relationship with Scotland will give you some interesting dimensions.
Absolutely. There's lots and lots of history for the OP to learn, but we all have to start at the very beginning (a very good place to start). Learning is the fun part.
Further than that. The only English pope, Adrian IV, issued a bull during the reign of Henry II granting England dominion over Ireland, an underhanded deal if I ever heard of one. Henry didn't act on it for sixteen years, until 1170, when internal Irish political problems drew him in. It's been a mess ever since.
Considering this topic, if anyone should be interested I recently posted a flash piece of fiction (just under 1,000 words; approxiamtely five minutes to read) on the critique forum. The piece is set during the struggle for Irish independence. Though no date is given, I envisioned 1919. It is loosely based on a story I heard secondhand.
I haven't many reads as yet, and no comments. I would deeply appreciate a few as that is what the thread is for.
Here is the thread at AW:
http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133846
Thank you.
Don Schneider
I haven't many reads as yet, and no comments. I would deeply appreciate a few as that is what the thread is for.
Here is the thread at AW:
http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133846
Thank you.
Don Schneider
Last edited:
Agreed on the "mess ever since": less so on the notion of "England" being given dominion over Ireland at that point. After all, Henry II was a French-speaking Emperor whose principal seat of Government was not on English soil and whose dominion over England itself had been won by force by his great-great grandfather (?check relationship) less than 100 years earlier and enforced by repression and the parcelling out of large chunks of snatched land to loyal supporters (aka thugs) who could be relied on to subdue the locals into a downtrodden peasant class so keeping resistance down rather than risk losing all that lovely loot. There's a reason the English words for farm animals (cow, pig, sheep) derive from Anglo-Saxon and the English words for the meat from farm animals (beef, veal,pork, mutton) derive from French. England was occupied territory too, at that point. And of course Oliver Cromwell drew heavily on the Norman precedent described above when settling his Scottish presbyterian planters in Ulster in the mid 17th century.
But I've got too many Welsh connections to accept the 12th century as where it all went wrong. What about the Irish slave raids along the western seaboard of Britain during the 6th century? The resentment over that is still pretty lively in the right circles.
- Joined
- Sep 1, 2007
- Messages
- 2,227
- Reaction score
- 390
- Location
- Cambridge
- Website
- myromancereviews.wordpress.com
You're joking, right?
And if not, next time why not Google for 30 seconds before displaying your ignorance to the whole world?
- Joined
- Sep 1, 2007
- Messages
- 2,227
- Reaction score
- 390
- Location
- Cambridge
- Website
- myromancereviews.wordpress.com
Interestingly on the news yesterday, they are starting to send soldiers back into NI again.
It changes so often, it's hard to keep up.
Oh dear, i hadn't heard, that's certainly sad news.
Just checked Stormont is devolved, with an assesmbly like Wales - that's what threw me, i was thinking of the devolution here - rather than a parliment, which we have here.
This is too much for a Sunday morning!
- Joined
- Sep 1, 2007
- Messages
- 2,227
- Reaction score
- 390
- Location
- Cambridge
- Website
- myromancereviews.wordpress.com
I'm pretty sure it's still Saturday, even up in Scotland.
Yes, Stormont is devolved but there have been times when power has had to be returned to Westminster because of problems with the power-sharing assembly.
They were trying to play down the return of the army, but obviously Sinn Fein are Not Happy About It At All and Martin McGuinness was saying so at length to everyone who he could make listen to him.
Thanks everyone, I better go get started, huh?
Got a lot of work to do apparently.
(And I'm a she, Sirius)
Got a lot of work to do apparently.
(And I'm a she, Sirius)