Let's talk about "preachy" books.

I would agree that most books HAVE messages, and should.

It's when an author writes a book to SEND a message that I have a problem, usually of the nauseated variety.

My approach to my work has always been to root it in characters and situations. Whatever messages (or themes or whatever) arise come naturally. They're there (and I talked a lot about the possibility of being good without God when I was promoting Before I Wake, but it was in no way my intention to write a book with that as a message), but arise naturally, rather than being shoehorned in.

As someone once said, if you want to send a message, use email.

IMO...a book will (should?) carry a theme, however that theme should never be brought to the reader via a soapbox. The story should not be a vehicle for the author's agenda--that agenda should be buried in the story (the deeper the better for me). As readers of fiction, we buy stories, not manifestos. Presumably, we can all find personal exceptions to this.

cethklein said:

I had an interesting conversation the other day. Somehow we got on the subject of "messages" in books. The person I was speaking with brought up the Narnia books. Keep in mind I only ever read the first one and that was over sixteen years ago. As young as I was then I didn't realize there was much of a message to it. As many know, the books are often criticized for being a bit too heavy handed in their promotion of Christian beliefs (is promotion of any belief in a book really a bad thing, it's just a book).

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Cassiopia has a point, books DO have a message (even if it's here's some neat math you can do if you pretend there's such a thing as infinitesimals), and whether it comes across as preachy is all in how the message is presented.

cethklein said:

On another note, Starship Troopers is also often criticized for being overly militaristic. To me it always seemed as though it was making light of militarism as much as it was promoting it. (I'm referring to the book not the film. The film definitely spent too much time mocking militarism and not enough time, you know, being good.)

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I didn't see the movie but I read the book (in the middle of devouring a few dozen Heinlein novels and this was 25+ years ago, so honestly I don't rememeber any of them that well), and from what I've read in "Expanded Universe" the movie makers were lucky Heinlein was dead so they could use the name of the book to make a movie.

Someone mentioned "The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress" and I remember that one much better, and enjoyed it one very much. He slips in some stuff on economics and advertising with "TANSTAAFL."

cethklein said:

For those who have read one, or both, do you think they are preachy or are people making mountains of mole hills? Can you think of other boosk that were preachy or accused of being that way?

Now that I asked, I'll go ahead and give my answer. I don't think either book really is preachy. Yes both espouse ideals but I never felt as though I were being preached too (again I should probably re-read the first Narnia book again). People need to realize, these are books. They're fiction books. It's not real. I find such accusations against Narnia to be just as weak as those claiming Harry Potter is satanic.

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There's a difference here, the Harry Potter books clearly weren't intended to be satanic and thus "any resemblance is coincidental", but there ARE a lot of books where the author is trying to convert the reader to a point of view. After a while and after drifting away from a "new-age atmosphere" I found Scott Peck's books to be a bit preachy (whereas before I was just trying to absorb what he said because "everyone knew" what he has to say leads to a better life).

From the other side, many years ago I read Richard Dawkins' "The Blind Watchmaker" which is his attempt at an explanation of evolution for laymen. I don't lnow that I found it "preachy" (for me he was preaching to the choir, anyway), but I had trouble reading it, it was tedious and he seemed to be go quite slow. It struck me as talking down to the reader. Now that I think about it, he may have been writing it with creationists in mind, and perhaps he doesn't think much of their intellect, so he was (consciously or not) writing down to them.

I recently read Dawkins' "The God Delusion" which I enjoyed much more, though I've heard others say this book is preachy.

I read this eight-book Star Trek/New Generation series starting with "A Time To Be Born," and the last book, "A Time to Heal:"
http://www.amazon.com/dp/0743491785/?tag=absolutewritedm-20
has a huge parallel with current events - Under Star Fleet's orders, the Enterprise is in a "police operation" on a planet with lots of small battles, and there's about one or two Star Fleet officers being killed per day. It's a real, um, quagmire. It's hard to say just when the author wrote this (published in August 2004, the US invaded Iraq March 2003) and how far along the US had been at war with Iraq, and whether the situation was really inspired by current news events, but the similarity is so striking I found it really annoying. I might have enjoyed this book a lot more if that stupid war hadn't happened.

Am I the only one who thought Heinlein was preachy?

I've only read Stranger in a Strange Land and good grief I've no desire to read anything else. I nearly put that book down but I forced myself to finish it. Often I found myself saying, "Okay, I get it already, jeez!"

Books with direct messages that I've liked are along the lines of The Stranger, The Fall, As I Lay Dying, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead (technically a play, shush), anything by Bradbury, anything by Vonnegut... I like the allegory to bubble up, not to dominate the work.

WriterInTheStone said:

I absolutely loved Atlas Shrugged, but that chapter where John Galt spends 25+ pages in a dialogue explaining Rand's philosophy and how it relates to the way we live our lives...man that was a marathon getting through.

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What you do is, you read the first and last paragraphs of Galt's speech, then skip ahead to the deliciously flamboyant torture and rescue scenes. Though actually I enjoy the speech when I'm in the right cantankerous mood.

As long as we remember the inscription over the Galt's Gulch generator, we're good.

I feel like I need a Cliff Notes just for the speech. I like Atlas Shrugged but I have never been able to read through the entire speech in one sitting.

One message story I enjoyed is Orson Scott Card’s Saints. I wrote a blog post about why it worked for me, here.

I actually like Francisco d'Anconia's speeches better, much shorter, with more zingers. Like the one that explains the book's title:

(Paraphrased)

Francisco: What can Atlas do, when he carries the whole world on his shoulders, bent and bleeding, captive to its demands?

Hank: What CAN he do?

Francisco: He can shrug.

I think Rand's original title for The Fountainhead was Second-Hand Lives. Was there any alternate title for Atlas Shrugged?

I think if the person has properly worked out their ideas and novel, the message will be built into the story without jarring diatribes. You can use structure, language, everything, to buttress your point, and all without writing a sentence actually defining it.

If your ideas are poorly thought out and stem from base emotion, you get pretentious finger wagging, such as Rand. Her ideas were abject failures and it shows in the clumsiness of the way she tried to implement them. She had no distance from her opinions whatsoever and the basis for her work--a political scare not based on reality--shows its flimsiness in the flabby narrative and completely outrageous ideas and plots.

Doing it properly requires a lot of self control and humility, I think.

NeuroFizz said:

IMO...a book will (should?) carry a theme, however that theme should never be brought to the reader via a soapbox. The story should not be a vehicle for the author's agenda--that agenda should be buried in the story (the deeper the better for me). As readers of fiction, we buy stories, not manifestos. Presumably, we can all find personal exceptions to this.

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I agree with you. If you feel you are being preached to you then perhaps one is "telling" not "showing" the storyline. A reader should come to the message via experience not lecture.

benbradley said:

Cassiopia has a point, books DO have a message (even if it's here's some neat math you can do if you pretend there's such a thing as infinitesimals), and whether it comes across as preachy is all in how the message is presented.

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And then, there is this. Ben is right as well. And let's look at this from another perspective. The reader. What is the reader's predisposition to such a message. No matter how well written if the reader's bias is strong enough against a particular subject, (Christianity in the Chronicles of Narnia) it is reasonable to conclude they are going to find it "preachy". The reader, consciously or unconsciously looks for the purpose in a story. We all do it. Purpose usually can be equated with a message. If that message is contrary to one's values, beliefs or desires then that person is bound to be disgrunted or annoyed.

It is important to remember that in communication in any form, there are two factors; the message being delivered and the interpretation of the delivered message. A writer has no control over the interpretation of their work but should be careful to see to it their intended message is written well enough to leave little to interpretation if that is important to them. Many writer's don't mind deviations or adverse reactions to their work. A reaction good or bad means the reader was engaged in the work. And THAT I believe is the purpose of good writing.

dempsey said:

Am I the only one who thought Heinlein was preachy?

I've only read Stranger in a Strange Land and good grief I've no desire to read anything else. I nearly put that book down but I forced myself to finish it. Often I found myself saying, "Okay, I get it already, jeez!"

Books with direct messages that I've liked are along the lines of The Stranger, The Fall, As I Lay Dying, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead (technically a play, shush), anything by Bradbury, anything by Vonnegut... I like the allegory to bubble up, not to dominate the work.

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Stranger is unique in his body of work, and not a good starter, IMO.

My personal favorite is The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, but your view may vary greatly based on your politics.

The Robert A. Heinlein Archives makes this recommendation:

4.9 - Which of Heinlein's works should I read first?
There is no consensus on which novels and shorter works are the best for a new or novice reader. However, most serious Heinlein fans would find little to argue with in the following list of "recommended starters":

• The Past Through Tomorrow (Future History short stories)
• Citizen of the Galaxy
• Have Space Suit--Will Travel
• Double Star
• The Door into Summer

Almost anyone who's going to like Heinlein as a whole will like most or all of these books.
A good set of "second round" starters might be the following. These books are hailed by many as some of Heinlein's best works, but each has a significant number of detractors as well. If you don't like one in this list, put it back on the shelf and try another. They're all very different, and just because one tastes bad to you does not mean the others will.

• Starship Troopers
• The Moon is a Harsh Mistress
• Friday
• Glory Road
• Stranger in a Strange Land
• Time Enough for Love

After that, you're on your own. Read on knowing you are deeply envied by the legions for having mountains of fresh, undiscovered Heinlein to read.

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RG570 said:

I think if the person has properly worked out their ideas and novel, the message will be built into the story without jarring diatribes. You can use structure, language, everything, to buttress your point, and all without writing a sentence actually defining it.

If your ideas are poorly thought out and stem from base emotion, you get pretentious finger wagging, such as Rand. Her ideas were abject failures and it shows in the clumsiness of the way she tried to implement them. She had no distance from her opinions whatsoever and the basis for her work--a political scare not based on reality--shows its flimsiness in the flabby narrative and completely outrageous ideas and plots.

Doing it properly requires a lot of self control and humility, I think.

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This side by side list of 100 greatest novels is interesting. Hmm, four in the top ten, including the top two spots. Not too shabby, Ayn.

I guess a lot of people have considerable distance from your opinions.

Obviously the reader's poll brought out the passionate, as the election of L. Ron Hubbard and J. R. R. Tolkien to the top ten shows. 1984 is another work of passionate belief, as, in some ways, is To Kill a Mockingbird.

Agree or disagree with the result, but mocking passion in its many forms probably isn't a paying proposition.

http://www.randomhouse.com/modernlibrary/100bestnovels.html

Queen of Swords said:

I think Rand's original title for The Fountainhead was Second-Hand Lives. Was there any alternate title for Atlas Shrugged?

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I believe the working title was On Strike. Yeah, Atlas Shrugged is a lot better.

Interesting, how both titles shift from a bare-faced statement of theme to metaphoric statement. The metaphoric are much more evocative, I think. Good lesson for us all.

The "punchline", as we say the Spanish speakers, of this is to have plot over message. Concieve a good story that even if it has a message, let the reader to find it by himself instead of message over plot and have a manifesto with some plot as ornament just to show example of your beliefs...

Personally, I found some Narnia books good (specially the ones in the middle) and some boring and The Last Battle downright offensive and preachy. Same with His Dark Materials, I liked the first one... but in the last seems more like a rant; and is not something if I agree or not with some author's idea, is the fact that they the story as some puppet show to say in a not so subtle way that they are right and why...

Talking about "preachy" books, I think The Alchemist by Paulo Coelho is the king of preachy books. It is just so very very preachy.

And I absolutely loved it. I don't know why, but as I read the book I actually felt like being preached to. That's how I felt.

I read a few of the Narnia books, and I liked them. I didn't think they were extremely preachy, just that they were entertaining and fun to read. Until someone pointed out to me how preachy they were, I don't think I would have known that there was a Christian message to the series.

Interestingly, I don't seem to see most of the 'messages' in the books. I read the stories because I like the plot, characters etc... I never identified any Christian messages in Narnia really. I like Aslan as Aslan.

I am sometimes surprised when people find messages in books that the author didn't intend to put there. I've heard of it a couple of times (can't quote specific examples). That can sometimes be amusing, but not to the author if his book is being interpreted in a way that he did not intend.

Some people accused Twilight of encouraging early marriage, and all sorts of things (some truly mad people accused it of supporting pedophiles). The books were written as books. I don't think the author wanted to encourage such things, the situation in the books called for the plot to move that way.
BTW, anyone suggesting that SM is supporting pedophiles (I've seem some people claiming so on Amazon) have not read the books properly. She very clearly states that the imprinting issue between a teen and a baby results in an elder brother-baby sister relationship.

Pullman does project his atheist views, but His Dark Materials was a very good trilogy with an awesome plot. I've never before seen a book written with a direct war against the Authority. I loved it as a book. I ignored the fact that the 'God' seems to die at the end. I'm very religions, but it didn't offend me in any way, presumably because I read it as a book, and not as a sermon.

Exir said:

Talking about "preachy" books, I think The Alchemist by Paulo Coelho is the king of preachy books. It is just so very very preachy.

And I absolutely loved it. I don't know why, but as I read the book I actually felt like being preached to. That's how I felt.

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Paulo Coelho is the king of preaching in novels... though I find it unbearable