A GAME OF THRONES (HBO) -- POSSIBLE SPOILERS

Also, I wanted to comment on Bran being caught by these rogue twats. I'm thinking it's possibly to . . .

1. Give Bran some kind of reunion with Jon Snow.
2. Give us a chance to finally see . . . >>>> Jon warg into Ghost <<<
3. Give Bran (and us, the audience) more information about the White Walkers or Bran's place in the story.
4. Show Bran go into Hodor more >>>>We see him actually using Hodor to fight others off in later books <<<<<

Not sure. There's a reason why this was a change. The writers usually like to kill off two (or three) birds with one stone story-wise. So, it could be a merging of characters that aren't present, or, a way to clarify something on screen. I'm not too worried about it, as long as we don't see Meera raped.

Book Spoiler:

Isn't Cold Hands >>>a "good" guy? And I'm pretty sure he rides a live elk, not a rotting dead horse. I don't think that was him. <<<

Dreamweaver, you could be right about the elk. I'm not sure. And yeah, I always thought Cold Hands was a "good" guy in a sense... and possibly... >>>Uncle Benjen Stark, but still not confirmed in any book narrative. Maybe they are weaving this creepy undead guy in with Cold Hands? <<<

CrastersBabies said:

Okay, here's something else I want to talk about (and am interested in Thoth's response in particular). It has to do with the White Walkers and other Undead in this world.

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I'm not Thoth, but I love this stuff, so I'm going to ramble about this with you.

Massive Book spoilers ahoy: The difference between the various forms of undead we've seen lies in their creation, I think. Beric and Catelyn (and <rampant speculation> Jon in the next book, I bet </rampant speculation>) were brought back by the Lord of Light. They seem to be exactly as they were before death, except their wounds do not heal and, according to Beric, "a part of them" gets left behind every time they're brought back. By the state we last saw Lady Stoneheart in, I'd say the amount of time that passes between death and resurrection can muck things up a great deal, as well (Thoros mentions not wanting to bring Catelyn back because she'd been dead so long). Though as you said, psychotic rage is also taking hold here.

Now the creatures North of the Wall, they seem to be a different breed entirely. You don't seem to be making any distinction between White Walkers (or Others as they're called in the books) and Wights, but to me there seems to be a marked difference between the two.

White Walkers are the old enemy, the purpose of the Wall, and they seem to be intelligent. They're even mentioned as having a language of their own in the books at some point, if I'm not mistaken. I also don't think the White Walkers are undead. If you read their entry on the Wiki of Ice and Fire, you'll see a quote from GRRM, where he says, "The Others are not dead. They are strange, beautiful… think, oh… the Sidhe made of ice, something like that… a different sort of life… inhuman, elegant, dangerous." The confusion probably comes from the way HBO has portrayed them on the television series. They definitely have an undead look about them in the show, very skeletal and what not. But they don't look quite as harsh in the books. One of them was beautiful enough to seduce the Night's King, after all (which also means there must be female Others somewhere in the Lands of Always Winter). After the last episode of the show, we now know for sure how they are born, so to speak (and this was strongly hinted at in the books as well, as you mentioned).

Wights, on the other hand, are definitely undead. These are the semi-mindless thralls made by the White Walkers/Others when they resurrect an enemy (or animal) they've slain. They are zombies, basically, which is why I was confused about the zombabeh thing earlier; I thought you were talking about Wight Babies, not White Walker Babies (which should totally be the name of a Game of Thrones kid's cartoon). It hasn't been revealed how they're made, but it seems like anything killed by a White Walker becomes a Wight if it isn't burned in time. One of these attacked Mormont in book 1/season 1. The White Walkers seem to use them as cannon fodder to make up for their lack of numbers.

Now you mentioned Coldhands . . . and I don't know what he is. He's undead, obviously. It seems like he's a Wight. But he's intelligent, unlike all the other Wights we've seen so far (also his eyes are black, not blue). Also, I think you're mistaken about not speaking. I remember him having conversations with both Sam and Bran and co. I remember him explaining to Bran why his hands are black, because of blood congealing, etc. Unless you meant in the TV show, in which case I don't think we've even seen Coldhands yet. I definitely don't think the White Walker we saw in the last episode carrying the baby is Coldhands, because I don't think Coldhands is a White Walker. I've seen theories online that he might be Benjen Stark, but I don't know. My personal theory is that he's either a Wight or a plain old corpse that is being controlled by a warg, possibly Bryndyn Rivers or Benjen (assuming Benjen might also have been a warg).

Not really a spoiler, just crazy speculation:

One theme I've picked up from both the books and the show is, pay attention to what people do, not what they say* (or: actions speak louder than words). Based on that, >>>I wonder a lot if Melissandra and the Fire God's religion would ever qualify as "good guys", even if they fight the Others. I mean, demon babies and burning people alive? This is *not* good. I half-expect some kind of doublecross when Melissandra finally tracks down the Others, such as rather than wanting to save Westeros, she wants to ignite Armageddon and destroy the world... Of course, that's all complete speculation. <<<

*unless you're Eddard Stark, who based his trust of Littlefinger on what he saw of Littlefinger's actions rather than on Littlefinger's own words. There are no absolutes in GoT

DreamWeaver said:

Based on that, >>>

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I don't think there's any such thing as Good Guys and Bad Guys in this story. They're all shades of gray. Everyone has some good and some bad in them, just like the real people and stories from history that GRRM has been influenced by. The closest thing to a true Good Guy we had was Ned, and he was the first to go. That was a powerful message. Even the White Walkers seem more alien than evil to me. Funny how that baby was smiling at the end.

As for Melissandra, I don't see a White Walker double-cross coming, but I do think her failure to interpret her visions correctly will come back around to bite her in the ass. Over and over she's shown a willingness to commit to a single interpretation of those fiery visions, despite their vague nature (and despite her own misgivings with said vagueness, as was revealed by her POV chapters in the last book). Like most of the characters in this story, she strikes me as someone who thinks she's doing what's Right from her perspective, even if it means doing terrible things as a means to an end.

thothguard51 said:

Eddard should have paid attention to both because LF did warn him not to trust him...

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Poor Ned made so many mistakes. So many. His own honor and mercy were the death of him.

I'm becoming more and more intrigued by << The Others after last week's episode. I want to see things from their perspective. 'cause right now, they're beginning to look like the most *benevolent* players in this Game. >> (first time trying the (possible) spoiler thing... hope I did it right.)

Ahhh, J.W. some GREAT Stuff in there! I think you are right on so many things with the zombies, the White Walkers (Others) and whatnot. I also wondering about some kind of face-off in the end between those reborn from the Lord of Light and those reborn in the North. What deity is responsible for the northern "risings?" if any?

Scattergorie said:

I'm becoming more and more intrigued by << The Others after last week's episode. I want to see things from their perspective. 'cause right now, they're beginning to look like the most *benevolent* players in this Game. >> (first time trying the (possible) spoiler thing... hope I did it right.)

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Well, at least in the show (don't remember in the books), they do have an affinity for macabre decorations (the 'omega' in the pilot and the spiral of horse pieces in early s3)

I just wonder how intelligent they are -if they're supposed to be human like (though not very chatty) or animals.

I got the impression from the books that (I'm just gonna spoiler the whole of this, sorry, I can never remember what parts are spoilers and what aren't) there was actually not necessarily any deity working at all and that the birth of the dragons was what was responsible for everyone suddenly being able to work their magic again, whether they say it's from a deity or not.
Also, that Melisandre is misinterpreting the prophecy, which Dany has already fulfilled (I don't remember if they went into it on the show, but she needed stone dragons, the blood of a king and a life... all of which Dany put together instinctively at the end of the first season, and which Mel was deprived of when Gendry managed to get away) so I wonder if she will be willing to switch sides to Dany when it comes to it and the actual dragons can no longer be ignored.
I suspect if the theories about Jon's parentage are true AND he ends up being a dragon-rider, Mel is going to have her fingers in the pie, because it seems like she might have to be involved in Jon's survival at the end of the most recent book.

Sorry, that was a bit of a tangle of theories.

What I find interesting is the fact that even with limited space, they have given Stannis' little girl several prominent scenes. I have to wonder what the showrunners know that we don't know at this point.
Honestly, the biggest joy I get out of the show is seeing what they do to condense the books... it's such an amazing lesson in character building to see two different, successful approaches and compare them.

Two additions:

Ser Davos the Onion Knight is coming across as good, to me. At least for now .

and

>>>All Mellisandra sees when she tries to see AA is snow...and she *still* doesn't get it <<<

Yup

...which seems to make the Brandon to Craster's Keep plotline fairly pointless. Or am I missing something?

I can't compare it to the books, but that episode felt well back on track after the last two. Very cool.

OK, that makes sense in a TV sort of way.

Book spoiler: >>> I guess we're not going to see Brienne's rescue from Biter, since the sword-as-tongue event has already been used tonight... <<<

CrastersBabies said:

What deity is responsible for the northern "risings?" if any?

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The wildlings (or Craster and his wives, at the very least) seem to think the White Walkers are gods. They called them "the cold gods" when Craster was making his sacrifices. And of course wildlings and Northerners also worship the Old Gods, represented by the heart trees in the godswoods. If you asked Melissandre though, I'd bet she'd tell you it's The Great Other, who is the sworn enemy of the Lord of Light.

lastlittlebird said:

I got the impression from the books that

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Regarding the big prophecy that seems to be at the heart of the story, right down to it's name (the song of ice and fire comes from the prophecy, as we learned from Dany's vision in the House of the Undying):

The prophecies of Azor Ahai and The Prince That Was Promised seem to predict the coming of the same person. Melissandre uses the terms interchangeably in the books. And, because GRRM is a genius, there are actually multiple characters thus far who have fulfilled at least some of the criteria (that we know of). The signs of the coming of Azor/The Prince are:

<major book spoilers, speculation, and geekery inbound, whited out just in case>

* Wields a flaming sword
* Born (or reborn, likely) under a bleeding star
* Born (or reborn) amidst smoke and salt
* Of the blood of the Dragon (the Targaryens)
* Will wake dragons from stone
* Originally considered male (a prince, after all), but Maester Aemon believed this was a translation error

So far in the books, Stannis Baratheon, Daenerys Targaryen, Jon Snow, and Victarion Greyjoy all meet some of these criteria.

Stannis wields Lightbringer, a flaming sword. He converted to the faith of R'hllor (a rebirth of sorts) under a comet (bleeding star) at Dragonstone, an island in the narrow sea (salt) with a pyre burning (smoke). The Baratheons have a maternal connection to the Targaryens somewhere up the family tree, so he has the blood of the Dragon. Melissandre is trying to perform a spell with king's blood that she believes will wake the stone dragon of Dragonstone to fulfill that part of the prophecy. If he's the one though, I'll eat my hat.

Dany has dragons, and the flaming sword could easily be metaphor. She became the Mother of Dragons (a rebirth) beneath a comet. She was born at Dragonstone (salt) and reborn on a funeral pyre (smoke). She's a Targaryen. She hatched dragons from stone eggs. If Aemon is right, the fact that she's a woman doesn't matter.

Jon Snow wields Longclaw, a sword made of Valyrian steel (also called dragonsteel), a magical alloy forged by dragonfire in Old Valyria. He also had a dream of fighting Others with a burning sword in his hand, and killed a Wight by wielding fire. Jon is seemingly killed at the end of the last book, but I'm betting he is resurrected (reborn), via warg powers or Melissandre or both. He dies beneath Ser Patrek's bloody star-laden heraldry (bleeding star), his wounds smoking (smoke), Bowen Marsh crying (salt). If he is truly the son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark (this is hinted at so strongly in the books that it's damned near confirmed), then he is the blood of the dragon. He has yet to wake dragons from stone, but if I had to make a pick at this point, Jon's it.

Victarion Greyjoy wields Dragonbinder, a giant horn banded with Valyrian steel, said to tame dragons, and which glows red hot when blown. His life is saved from a mortal wound by a red priest (a rebirth of sorts?). The ritual that saves his life is performed at sea (salt) and afterward his arm visibly smokes. Victarion is not the blood of the dragon, but is told by the red priest that he must claim the dragon horn with blood if he's to use it. We will see if he's able to "wake" Dany's stone-born dragons by blowing that horn in the next book.

Now, it's also worth mentioning that according to Barristan Selmy, the mad king Aerys married his sister Rhaella because a woods witch (the ghost of High Heart?) told them The Prince That Was Promised would be born of their line. If this is true, that narrows the list down to Dany and Jon (if Rhaegar is truly his father).

By the seven, I can't believe I rambled out such a long post about all this. See what Game of Thrones does to me?

I enjoyed tonight's episode. I agree that the whole Craster's Keep thing was probably meant to give Bran something more to do in the show, since otherwise they'd either have to jump him to his destination or just keep showing him wandering about the woods.

I am **loving** the spoiler conversation. FWIW, I think:

- Dany is clearly Azor Ahai;

- Jon is the blending of ice and fire and so he will be the one to sit the Iron Throne;

- Jon and Dany will marry (family tradition of the Tars--she's his aunt; also, squick factor not so strong because the two don't know each other/didn't grow up together);

- Tyrion is also half Tar -- one of the books implied that his mother had an affair with a Tar (don't remember which one) and that's why Tywin hated him so much (him being a dwarf and that his mother died in childbirth didn't help much), but because of Lannister pride (ha, lions, see what I did there?) he'd never officially call Tyrion a bastard; and

- Jon, Dany and Tyrion will be the three dragon riders.

Whew.

I'm sure the reason why they did Bran to Craster's Keep storyline was because they needed to fill the episodes. Bran didn't have much to do in A Storm Of Swords, if I recall correctly; ditto Dany, who did quite a bit but without much page time. Last night's ep already had the "I will rule" line, which, IIRC, was how Dany's POV ended in ASOS. So the showrunners have to A) fill screentime and B) advance the main plots while C) developing the characters. I'm very OK with the liberties they've been taking. Overall, GOT is the most gripping show I've watched in recent history.

thothguard51 said:

JW, you are leaving out a few other factors in your speculation, such as

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Oh, I'm not overlooking Tyrion or the Dragon with Three Heads (that's certainly coming), I was just speculating solely on the Azor Ahai/Prince That Was Promised prophecy and who it might represent. Tyrion wasn't on my list because, to my knowledge, he hadn't met the criteria of the prophecy.

BUT if dragonjax is right, I might need to revise that conclusion. I may have missed the hints about him having Targaryen blood. I do remember something about Aerys being infatuated with Joanna, which led to the tension between him and Tywin. AND his hair is described as being a little paler than the other Lannisters, if I remember correctly. AND he would be the third major character whose mother died giving birth to them (the other two being Dany and Jon Snow), which is a hell of a coincidence. He also seems fascinated with dragons. At the Battle on the Blackwater (which provided lots of smoke and salt), he weaponized fire to save the city (flaming sword), and it could be argued he woke after that battle as a different person (a rebirth of sorts), due to his disfigurement and his authoritative status being swept out from under him. HMMM. I now want to go back and look for that bleeding star. One thing though, if he's descended from Aerys and Joanna, that means he's not of the line of Aerys and Rhaella, as the woods witch predicted.

You know, I wonder if maybe The Prince That Was Promised is not a single person at all, since one of GRRM's big things in this story is the misinterpretation of prophecy. Maester Aemon seems to think the Three Headed Dragon will serve the Prince, but what if the Dragon IS the Prince? A single dragon with three heads: Dany, Jon, and Tyrion (or Victarion or Stannis, for the sake of inclusion), all filling the role of Azor/The Prince simultaneously. HMMM.

Where are you Winds of Winter? We need you!

dragonjax said:

I am **loving** the spoiler conversation. FWIW, I think:

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I absolutely agree with you that Jon is the blending of Ice & Fire. He's half Targaryen, half Stark. BUT, to me that's more evidence that he's Azor/The Prince.

Remember when Dany had her vision in the House of the Undying? She saw her brother Rhaegar, holding his infant son, and he says, "He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire." Rhaegar thought it would be Aegon, but I think it's Jon Snow (if it is indeed a single person).

I also agree that he'll probably end up on the Iron Throne. Perhaps Snow will be legitimized as a Targaryen (possibly by a misinterpretation of Robb Stark's decree that he be legitimized?), giving him the strongest claim to the throne. I like the idea of him marrying Dany (and there's hints she'll fall in love again in her visions). But I also feel like she's going to die at some point. Mostly a gut feeling. There's that whole "three betrayals" prophecy she has going on. I wouldn't be surprised if Tyrion died either, just because GRRM is a cold, cold man. Here's hoping the Three Headed Dragon keeps all its heads, though.