Preditors and Editors - Outdated?

omega12596 said:

Print doesn't equal quality. And I wonder how many other readers may believe this as I do and find that spending a buck on a messy book is a lot easier to swallow than spending thirty-five bucks.

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Have you ever read slush? We're not talking about simply a messy book. We're talking about stuff bad enough to make your retinas bleed.

ghost said:

They also seem to believe that because they're getting 70% of sales (all priced much lower than industry standard between .99 to $4.99) that they're cleaning the floor over published authors. One was bragging that he'll earn more money selling less copies of his book than I will with my book deal. When I pointed out that he won't (my agent got me 25% of all electronic sales...not to mention hard/soft cover sales and one hell of a marketing plan) he shut up.

Yes, once again a few self-published authors will probably do well. The majority won't.

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It will all boil down to sales. You're 25% isn't bad - depending on the fine print - and a marketing plan with a tab picked up by the publisher is fantastic. But, in theory, your friend is right. If he gets 70% of 4.99 (call it 3.49 a copy sold) then, depending on what the specific terms of your e-contract are, he could very well make more than you do for fewer copies sold. It all rests on how you get paid e-royalties.

Of course, adding in hard copy sales, you may get the leg up. But if you're getting 8% a copy on a 24.99 hard cover, you're still only getting about 2 bucks a book sold. He's still doing better on his 5 dollar e-book than you are on print.

Bubastes said:

Have you ever read slush? We're not talking about simply a messy book. We're talking about stuff bad enough to make your retinas bleed.

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ROFL! Not just bleed. Exploding eyes is more like it

Hey, I'm not defending every single self-pubbed book out there. In fact, I don't really know much at all about literal self-publishing. I'm offering that quality does not equal print. And that when related to e-publishing, the model is generally better for authors, and for readers as well in respect to cost of product, than the NY model.

Trust me, I get plenty of flack for choosing to e-publish. Close to the same kind of flack I get for choosing to publish erotic romance. I understand that neither of those choices are in general considered ones a 'real' writer would opt for outside of dire need, and even then most likely a 'real' writer wouldn't stoop so 'low'. Everyone is entitled to their opinions.

I found this thread interesting, the opinions weighed on viability of electronic publishing in the future are well written and well thought out. I hoped to contribute a different point of view and move the discussion forward.

omega12596 said:

Trust me, I get plenty of flack for choosing to e-publish. Close to the same kind of flack I get for choosing to publish erotic romance. I understand that neither of those choices are in general considered ones a 'real' writer would opt for outside of dire need, and even then most likely a 'real' writer wouldn't stoop so 'low'. Everyone is entitled to their opinions.

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You're not going to get flack from me for either choice, especially since two WIPs I'm working on will likely go to an e-publisher because they are spicy novellas that would have a hard time finding a home anywhere else. Hey, all of my fiction sales so far were without a byline, but I still consider myself a "real" writer. The checks say I am.

James D. Macdonald said:

Owen Glendower: I can release my novels on the Nook!

Hotspur: Why, so can I, and so can any man. But who will read when you do publish them?

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I am so not reading any novels summoned from the vasty deep.

That's gotta be worse than Windows . . .

omega12596 said:

I don't think print publishing is ever going to take back the ground it's lost against e-publishing, but if print moves closer to the e model, I think that may be good news for everyone, readers and authors alike.

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The point is . . .print publishing isn't losing ground.

It's gaining ground.

And it's going to continue gaining ground, and the increase will continue to be exponential.

The big six have been making and selling consumer ebooks since at least 1992.

They've learned some stuff.

And now, they're learning that DRM doesn't work, just as the major music production houses did.

ghost said:

I see people throw around numbers about how many books are selling on Kindle...but the majority being sold are still from major publishers.

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Who promote them heavily via special deals with Amazon.

And of course, the advertising for the print versions works just as well for the ebook versions.

You'll note that publishers are not as yet signing exclusivity deals for a particular reader/file format; that's smart.

ghost said:

Sadly the public is going to become more wary of buying cheap stories on the internet once they download a few and realise they're .99 for a reason.

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I was a new adopter with the Rocket eBook at the end of the last millenium. I really want ebooks to succeed, and don't really care if print books become quaint collectors items, like vinyl records.

Yet it only took me two questionable purchases to get to the point above. Those purchases weren't cheap--they were normal price, and came with starred reader reviews. So, I learned a double lesson: buy only from proven reputable publishers, and discount reader reviews.

I'm reading a $0.79 ebook thriller right now, and enjoying it very much. However, it was a loss leader from a major publisher.

70% of 2.99 is 2.09. That's probably still better than what you are making in your e-contract and on those theoretical hardcovers - of course your hardcover cut may be more like 15% and so...

It depends on what huge publisher you are with, in regards to the Kindle. The 'model' has new bestsellers going for 9.99-14.99, but still less than typical hard cover price. And with Amazon taking at least 30% off the top. And the publisher taking its cut. Maybe you make 3 bucks with your contract? Not bad at all. But then you might have to deal with 'windowing' and the potential loss of sales due to the use of that industry tactic.

Even with Apple hopping in to 'save' big pubs earlier this year, they(Apple) only agreed to the industry model for a single year. And anyone who follows tech at all knows that Jobs is well known for haggling lower prices once he's got a leg in a new venture. So next year, I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Apple and Amazon getting those new releases for 9.99.

So, if this other fellow has a quality product, that he's sold e-right to Amazon for and is getting 70%... Sales are the proof in the pudding.

Bubastes said:

You're not going to get flack from me for either choice, especially since two WIPs I'm working on will likely go to an e-publisher because they are spicy novellas that would have a hard time finding a home anywhere else. Hey, all of my fiction sales so far were without a byline, but I still consider myself a "real" writer. The checks say I am.

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LOL! Thanks and congrats I sincerely hope your WIPs find good homes

DreamWeaver said:

I was a new adopter with the Rocket eBook at the end of the last millenium. I really want ebooks to succeed, and don't really care if print books become quaint collectors items, like vinyl records.

Yet it only took me two questionable purchases to get to the point above. Those purchases weren't cheap--they were normal price, and came with starred reader reviews. So, I learned a double lesson: buy only from proven reputable publishers, and discount reader reviews.

I'm reading a $0.79 ebook thriller right now, and enjoying it very much. However, it was a loss leader from a major publisher.

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If you're reading it others likely are as well. So, loss leader for the publisher, but maybe not for the author? And sure, if you buy bad products from one source, you're not as apt to go back for more. Funny thing is, from inside the e-publishing industry, I find less and less people lumping all digital books in the same pot. Less people who think 'I bought a bad ebook, so they are all bad' and more people 'I bought a horrible book from company x. I won't by from them again, but I'm still going to try other companies.'

Medievalist said:

The point is . . .print publishing isn't losing ground.

It's gaining ground.

And it's going to continue gaining ground, and the increase will continue to be exponential.

The big six have been making and selling consumer ebooks since at least 1992.

They've learned some stuff.

And now, they're learning that DRM doesn't work, just as the major music production houses did.

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I'd argue they are catching up and not gaining. The benefits of going e, so to speak, are mainly toward keeping readers from going elsewhere and not to further a new format for the industry. When readers stop buying the 35 dollar hard cover new release and spend that money instead on ebooks from competitors or epublishers, the Big Six had to do something to get those readers back.

And I'm not denying some of the big publishers have tried some form of digital book for ages. However, they never truly exploited the medium, they never made their offerings widely available, they didn't market the 'new' technology, etc. They didn't because they erroneously assumed, way back when, that digital books would be unlikely to gain ground in the mass market and would only be potentially viable in the text book market. They were wrong.

DRM... Ugh. That's a mess. And with so many people willing, able, and happy to break the code and help others do the same... I'm sad it's taken the print industry this long to let it go, but happy to see them do it.

I went and peeked at the sales of the other guy...not even close to what he's bragging about.

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Whoa, you can do that? How do you peek in on someone's sales? I've always been curious on how other authors are REALLY doing.

Anyway, I'm really liking the education I'm getting about e-books, though print books will always be my preference for reading material. And I really hope print books never go away, because if that happens, what will people that are dirt-poor, people in undeveloped countries, homeless people, and prisoners read?

That being said, besides the very first post, what does this thread have to do with Preditors and Editors exactly?

ghost said:

http://www.novelrank.com/

funny enough, the guy bragging about how he's making a living is earning about $100.00 a month through his sales. But he's the same person who posted this link for everyone to look at .

And yeah, this thread did get a little derailed.

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I just checked out that site and it doesn't give historical data. All you can do is set it up to track and in an hour it starts giving data from new sales.

So how do you know what he's earned? Did I miss something?

So you can figure out what the bragging guy earned for possibly two months?

BTW, I'm on the side of the traditional advance-based publishing.

ghost said:

Ok, so someone said this to me on another forum. I thought I'd post it here and let everyone put in their two cents.

quote: The truth is, with the advent of devices like Kindle and I-pad and Nook, a new digital publishing paradigm is throwing a wrench in the works of traditional publisher and sites like P& E have simply not kept up. They still believe that all writers are still seeking the same tired old contracts from mass-market publishers who give you absolutely no control over editing or book cover design, and pay you a nickel a book if you're lucky, who will pull your title out of bookstores within a month and not release rights back to you for five years, if you're one of the one in a thousand (maybe) that they deem worthy enough.
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What really amazes me is that these people buy into these lies 100% and there is nothing you can do to change their mind. Since when did self-publishing become such a cult following?

And for the record, this person isn't actually self-publishing although he went on a rant about how self-publishing is the 'only' way to go. He actually signed with Damnation books. He only got pissy at me when I pointed out the P&E rating.

He added this: I've already read it and Alex Smith needs to move on.

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I guess the derailing was my fault. I took this, the initial post, as the larger question. Not that the digital industry might somehow make P&E invalid.

To that point, I don't see the argument. Whether in digital format, or print, P&E is an invaluable resource, IMO and many others.

ghost said:

I'm signed with Macmillan. My agent got me 25% for ebook. So if my book is priced at 9.99 I'll be earning $2.50 for each book. That's not bad when you think about it.

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Thank goodness for you Macmillan and Amazon got over there spat earlier this year So you get 25% of cover price in your contract? Not 25% less distribution/reseller fees? That's very nice And yeah, it definitely sounds like the fellow crowing might have been a little over excited.

Bottom line, though, is that authors cutting deals direct with Amazon or Apple can be more lucrative. Doesn't mean it is in every case, but it can be. If this fellow had your ticket price, he'd be making 6.99 on each book. So for every one book he sells, it'd take you two and a half. I suppose that's why Konrath, as an example, is doing so much laughing to his bank.

If Konrath is the author I'm thinking of (and he might not be, my memory isn't always the greatest), he started with commercial publishers before moving to self-publishing. He had a following before he made that jump, and that makes a difference. That's where self-pub authors seem to trip up. They completely forget about the very significant detail of marketing the title, and that can make a big difference between one who succeeds and one who fails. If no one knows your book exists, all the lucrative deals in the world aren't going to give you a better deal than someone with a commercial pub and a smaller royalty rate.

M.R.J. Le Blanc said:

If Konrath is the author I'm thinking of (and he might not be, my memory isn't always the greatest), he started with commercial publishers before moving to self-publishing. He had a following before he made that jump, and that makes a difference. That's where self-pub authors seem to trip up. They completely forget about the very significant detail of marketing the title, and that can make a big difference between one who succeeds and one who fails. If no one knows your book exists, all the lucrative deals in the world aren't going to give you a better deal than someone with a commercial pub and a smaller royalty rate.

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Yes. I didn't mean to imply Konrath wasn't a classically published author in the first place. I apologize if my statement was misconstrued. Of course J.A. Konrath was published, and established, in NY before choosing to offer his backlist, as well as some new work, via Amazon/Kindle.

He chose to do so because he makes 70% of the cover price of his books, which he certainly wasn't getting offered through any print venue. And he's an example of why some authors, established and not, are looking at self-publishing - and to an extent e-publishing - as a more viable option than was previously believed.

Okay, Ghost, I think I see what you're talking about. This other fellow was saying Konrath is making it and I could too. That's the lottery mentality, IMO, and Ms. Le Blanc makes a good point that all the 70% of cover in the world aren't going to provide 'a living' for many self-published authors.

However, publishing period doesn't make most folks enough money to call it 'a living'. I suppose that's my sticking point. Do I think making 6500 bucks off e-book royalties a living? No, but then again it's more than I made/would make working a part-time job, after child care expenses, travel expenses, etc. And I'm not a top producer.

I support author benefit first, reader a close second. And the e-industry is definitely closer to author first, than print, IMO. Maybe I don't sell as many copies as the next guy/gal who got that 10K advance, but I can make close without giving an agent 10-15% or waiting for installments over a year. I get paid every month, like clockwork, which makes this job dependable, and that's always a plus

omega12596 said:

And I'm not denying some of the big publishers have tried some form of digital book for ages. However, they never truly exploited the medium, they never made their offerings widely available, they didn't market the 'new' technology, etc. They didn't because they erroneously assumed, way back when, that digital books would be unlikely to gain ground in the mass market and would only be potentially viable in the text book market. They were wrong.

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Yeah, no, they never said that. They've funded ebook technology.

Random House has employed more than fifteen contractors to do ebook conversions since they started selling books for the Palm in 2000.

The "million ebooks" that Barnes and Noble has for the Nook are not from tiny indie publishers for the most part--they're from Peanut Press/eReader/Fictionwise, and the books are from mainstream trade publishers--the big six.

Publishers sell content, and they don't much care what container it's in, as long as someone will buy it.