Miss Snark mentions gather.com novel contest

I thought it looked interesting (got the info in my Borders newsletter), but I decided to forego it. It's an interesting concept!!

Julie Worth said:

Could be. "The Travel Clinic" seemed to be decent, interesting writing, but the first person to come along slapped it with a 1 out of 10.

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Its rating has gone up. I agree with you, it reads pretty well (certainly compared with the other two entries, which IMO are one-paragraph rejects). Just one problem: it's NONFICTION. The rules say the contest is for novels only. Then there was the entry with three chapters posted at once, when the rules say first chapter only for Round 1. What's going on with these non-appropriate postings? Are the Gather folks not vetting the entries, or is the submission level so low that they're worried?

Very interesting about the networks, cliques, etc.

- Victoria

Perhaps some brave and enterprising soul, who is braver than this wyrm, would care to e-mail them and see what their deal is.

You know, I wonder if Simon & Schuster will just back out of this deal, either quickly and quietly before it goes anywhere, or just by announcing that there were no suitable entries.

I'm trying to decide if it is worth it for me to enter or not.

I'm working on polishing my manuscript, so it is in its third draft. Re-writing is a process that is never finished until things are typeset and printed.

I read the rules about the 2 - 10 K chapters and immediately went to my manuscript. I've chosen to use short chapters that have cruel cliffies. So they don't fit that specified length, but I could always combine them for the sake of this competition.

Such as adding chapters 1 and 2 to make a new and longer chapter 1. Chapters 3, 4, and 5 would become the new chapter 2.

I like short chapters because it lulls readers into thinking that "I'll just read one more chapter before I go to sleep. It's only four pages." Then they get to a cliffie and fell they can't stop there.

So, my response to the four souls who broke the competition ice and submitted is that you shouldn't judge too harshly that their chapters are short, but I do feel that the contestants should have paid more attention to the rules and tried better to follow them.

I've got several concerns and questions about entering this contest. If lightning were to strike and I actually won the competition - would I be able to have someone like Robert Pimm be able to help me negotiate altering the boilerplate terms? I've heard him speak at writers conferences and his opinion is the stock, standard publishing contracts are written to benefit the publishers and take all the rights possible from writers. I don't want to sign something I might rue for years to come.

On the flip side...I have a weak sense of knowledge about Gather.com. One of my friends in my writers club finally took my advice and started to plug his joke books by doing a Joke A Day entry. He chose Gather.com to be his entry into cyberspace fandoms, and he cross posts these jokes into dozens of gather communities. Basically I just go and read his jokes and will comment.

It's not my playground. But, I'm wondering...

If I posted a portion of my novel in the contest, and it generated good reviews based on the strength of my writing and not on politicking - might this be a source for a new fanbase? One that would be interested in reading the rest of my novel? If I had good ratings and good reviews, would an agent be interested in hearing that even if I didn't make it into the final round? If I generated good buzz?

Just wondering. I'm trying to think of all kinds of ways to increase a fanbase for my writing.

Athena

Athena said:

If I posted a portion of my novel in the contest, and it generated good reviews based on the strength of my writing and not on politicking - might this be a source for a new fanbase? One that would be interested in reading the rest of my novel? If I had good ratings and good reviews, would an agent be interested in hearing that even if I didn't make it into the final round? If I generated good buzz?

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It's very hard to say. Fanbases, especially internet originated ones, can be transient things that are only interested in you as long as you're on the pixels are in front of them.

Except for the times when they won't forget you, even if you've fallen off the radar altogether.

Mostly, I would suggest not worrying about building a fanbase. It's not a writerly concern that need be very high on your list. Produce the best story you can, and do it several times in a row, and a fanbase will build from there.

PeeDee,
I have a fanbase from some online Harry Potter fanfiction that I wrote several years ago. I have several hundred different people who wrote positive reviews for my novel posted on three different websites.

I'm now going back and trying to contact them via email to let them know that I've completed a book and am going to be shopping it around soon.

The bad part is, many of their email addresses no longer work. There are hundreds that still work, and hopefully I'll get them to read my new literary blog and be excited to read my work once I get it published.

Several other HP fanfic authors have signed contracts with publishers and have books coming out. Part of their appeal was they had a fanbase prior to publication.

I'm just trying to think of all bases to cover. Of course, if I generated a lot of YOU SUCK comments on gather.com, I wouldn't mention it in a query letter to agents.

Athena

I'm not trying to be a wet-blanket. Honest, I'm not. I don't now if I'd mention anything at all in your query letter. I mean, if you have this online fan base and you say, in your query letter, "I have 400 people online who have steadily read and enjoyed my online stories" then what does this do for the agent? How can they look at this as a substancial claim, a concrete number which they could use to sell your book to the publisher?

They can't really. It's nice to know, personally as an author, that you have a potential audience who is familiar with your work and your name. That's great. But it does nothing very much for the selling process.

Just sayin'.

Scrawler said:

Last year, I was under the impression that Gather was a site for writers ready to post their work for critique, and polish their craft. I soon learned that it was nothing more than a "myspace gone bad" with flame wars, character assassinations against other members, circulating hate-list to new members via private email, false accounts created to slam other members, cliques campaigning behind the scenes to pump up ratings and votes for those in the circle, and bombarding "outsiders" with low ratings and harassing comments. Twenty word "articles" (many cut/pasted from Wikipedia or online newspapers with no sources sited) were posted to earn comments, which translated into points, which translated into gift cards or cash. I don't recommend anyone participate on the site, and would certainly be wary of entering into any agreement with Gather.com. Be afraid, be very afraid.

Besides, if you haven't spent the last year politicking on the site, building your "network", joining the appropriate cliques, and proclaiming your undying love to the ringmasters by faithfully offering lavish praise for their every misspelled and grammatically incorrect word, your work will be rated low and dismissed with negative comments. Or worse, ignored completely.
I'd rather get a legitimate agent rejection then go anywhere near that site again. I'm just glad I used a pseudonym there.

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D'oh! I knew I should have checked back with AW one more time before submitting last night. Well, this is all good to know. Comments I get, if any, I will take with a huge grain of salt. I am an outsider to the community and defintiely not one sitting at the popular kids table at lunch.

I think I submitted the only thing I would be willing to submit to a contest such as this. My more recent novels are in the hands of agents (no contact signed, but hopefully someday soon!) and the novel I submitted is one that I let go of a long time ago. Athena - I would honestly suggest you go the more traditional route (submitting to agents) before you enter your new novel in this contest. I mean, I don't want your novel to be held up for several months or a year before you can submit it again.

PeeDee - Did I take the plunge last night alone?

Athena said:

II've got several concerns and questions about entering this contest. If lightning were to strike and I actually won the competition - would I be able to have someone like Robert Pimm be able to help me negotiate altering the boilerplate terms?

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I think that the 5-day requirement (the winner must sign the S&S contract within 5 days of receipt) is intended to head off just such a possibility--to make it really hard, if not impossible, for an author to run out and get an agent on the strength of the contract, who'd then want to negotiate contract clauses and a bigger advance.

An IP lawyer can certainly help you with a contract, but as a long-term career choice, an agent is a better bet. An agent doesn't just negotiate publishing contracts; she knows publishers and editors, and works to sell subsidiary rights.

If I posted a portion of my novel in the contest, and it generated good reviews based on the strength of my writing and not on politicking - might this be a source for a new fanbase? One that would be interested in reading the rest of my novel? If I had good ratings and good reviews, would an agent be interested in hearing that even if I didn't make it into the final round? If I generated good buzz?

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I don't think an agent would be at all impressed by something like this. No offense, but a bunch of strangers giving you votes on Gather.com doesn't say anything about the marketability of your work. Even if every one of those voters signed a pledge to buy your book once it was published--and in reality, no one can say how, or if, votes and ratings on a social networking site might translate into actual book sales--a few hundred readers is a drop in the bucket when you're talking sales expectations of many thousands for a commercially published book.

S&S appears to be hoping there's some kind of fan base possibility with the contest, or at least that it'll generate word of mouth (very important to book sales), but I'm skeptical. Especially given everything I'm hearing about vote trading and cliques at Gather.

Several other HP fanfic authors have signed contracts with publishers and have books coming out. Part of their appeal was they had a fanbase prior to publication.

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Like this woman? This is the only one I've heard about.

- Victoria

Several other HP fanfic authors have signed contracts with publishers and have books coming out. Part of their appeal was they had a fanbase prior to publication.

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No, part of their appeal was that they had previous experience writing for audiences, which in turn affected their ability to write for the better, which in turn was the bit that the publisher was interested in.

As is the case with something like Snakes on a Plane, a rabid internet fan base frothing at the mouth doesn't translate into sales numbers. Not even a little bit. They can be going nuts over you one second, and then go "eh," when you actually release something.

Several Star Trek fanfic authors have sgined contracts and have books coming out. Likewise, Party of Five fanfic authors, Baywatch, and so on. The fact that they may have written these things at some point has next to nothing to do with the contracts and publishers. It just means they've been doing writing.

Crank: You did take the plunge last night alone, because I wound up staying late at work and not getting home until a very silly hour. If you've submitted, then I said I would, and I shall. I have to be at the bookstore very shortly, but I will send my submission in tonight, no matter what silly hour it is. Otherwise, it'd make a liar outta me.

Hmm, only open to residents of the US. End of debate for me.

PeeDee said:

Crank: You did take the plunge last night alone, because I wound up staying late at work and not getting home until a very silly hour. If you've submitted, then I said I would, and I shall. I have to be at the bookstore very shortly, but I will send my submission in tonight, no matter what silly hour it is. Otherwise, it'd make a liar outta me.

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Please don't feel like I need to submit your work just because you said you would! You know what? I think there is another step that needs to take place before I am "officially submitted" - I think they send you some link that you need to click on and actually post the work yourself. So... I am kind of thinking I may not do that second step. Really - go for it if you want to, but please don't do it if you have serious doubts. I won't say your pants are on fire. I swear.

I recently received an invite to join a newly formed Gather clique called [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"'No Fighting, Whining or Putting Things Down" [/FONT]
When I asked what had prompted the new group, a friend wrote to say "Oh, man! The blood was running deep over the floorboards in November."
I imagine things got even worse than what I remember.

Strange contest

On second look it seems to be getting stranger. Theres an entry fully of glaring typos of the OUCH! variety that has scored 10 out of 10 and is from the UK, even though they say only US residents. Seems there's no entry fee, no vetting, ergo no rules. It makes one wonder if there's a real publishing contract at the end. I'd give this one a little more time to see how it plays out.

HAS this been confirmed at all with S&S? I mean, I can't imagine them pulling this without vetting it with the publisher first, but stranger things have happened. Do we know that S&S is really involved with this?

The lack of useable entries (thus far, they're tripe.) Would incline me more to submit. I can write complete sentences, and I spell more gooder than them.

On the other hand, if it's solely a popularity contest and there would be no judgements made on quality, why submit? I'm not going to campaign the internet, for Pete's sake. I have writing to do, writing I would much rather do.

Manat said:

On second look it seems to be getting stranger. Theres an entry fully of glaring typos of the OUCH! variety that has scored 10 out of 10 and is from the UK, even though they say only US residents. Seems there's no entry fee, no vetting, ergo no rules. It makes one wonder if there's a real publishing contract at the end. I'd give this one a little more time to see how it plays out.

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Maybe it hasn't started yet?

Q) When will the first entries be posted?
A) The first entries will be posted Monday January 15th, 2007.

Julie Worth said:

Maybe it hasn't started yet?

Q) When will the first entries be posted?
A) The first entries will be posted Monday January 15th, 2007.

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......So what's this stuff that's appearing and looking very entry-like?

This is bamboozling. this is also the kind of thread I'd be expecting to find in the Bewares section of the forums, for that matter.

Um, this contest raises so many red flags for me that it isn't even funny.

Bartholomew said:

Um, this contest raises so many red flags for me that it isn't even funny.

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But what are they? I find things about it disquieting (like the suspicion that the guy on the corner isn't selling you a REAL Rolex) but I can't find anything overtly WRONG with it. It's not a PublishAmerica sized scam, for example.

PeeDee said:

......So what's this stuff that's appearing and looking very entry-like?

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I think the problem is with the tag first chapters, which appears on works that aren't intended for the competition. Adding the word competition takes care of the problem.

Try this link: http://www.gather.com/first%20chapters%20competition

See, no entries so far.

I think the methodology is flawed, but I wouldn't discourage anyone from entering. The only thing that's possibly not so wonderful is the presumption that you won't be able to negotiate S&S's boilerplate, but that doesn't change the fact that there may be a real publishing deal with real advance money and real promotion waiting at the end of the contest. I stress that I think most contests are a waste of time, and writers are better off submitting for publication. But this one has more to offer than many.

Suspecting that S&S isn't involved is way too paranoid, IMO. Touchstone's VP and publisher has been quoted in the NY Times on the contest, and there's been other news coverage; plus, Gather.com isn't some fly by night outfit; it's a big commercial website and it would be very much NOT in its interest to fabricate something like this. You've gotta put this stuff in context before you start hauling out the conspiracy theories.

That's not to say that Gather.com, aided by what sounds like a rather dysfunctional social scene over there, might not make a mess of it. Again, though, it's in their interest to run things right, or they'll have trouble getting anyone else to partner with them for something like this. So far the postings are weird, but maybe they'll get it together.

- Victoria

victoriastrauss said:

Suspecting that S&S isn't involved is way too paranoid, IMO. Touchstone's VP and publisher has been quoted in the NY Times on the contest, and there's been other news coverage; plus, Gather.com isn't some fly by night outfit; it's a big commercial website and it would be very much NOT in its interest to fabricate something like this. You've gotta put this stuff in context before you start hauling out the conspiracy theories.

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I wasn't hauling it out, I was just quietly worried and hoping someone knew better than I did. Sorry it sounded like I was hauling out conspiracy theories. My tin foil hat slipped down over my eyes a bit, I must have typed badly.

The first twenty real submissions have shown up. See:
http://chaptersadmin.gather.com/ Click on "view all."

Unfortunately, they appear to have posted one novella in its entirety. Dead Man's Canyon clocks in at about 34,000 words.

I am thinking of entering, I am looking into it now and have anovel I can work on now that could easily be whipped into shape, it's a long first chapter too but I am editing it now to see if I can fix that little problem. It will be interesting to see how this works out won't it?