Child Beauty Pageants

I wanna catch some Willie...

Wait...what?

I don't know what I'm saying.

I bet men hate it when they have to "Free Willie"

When do we start talking about beauty contests for foreskins?

Don't worry, I'm going out now.

Bai!

I have a 2-year-old boy, uncut, and a 5-year-old girl. I don't think I know anyone in my circle of mom friends who has chosen to circumcise. Our health insurance doesn't cover it, the pediatric society does not recommend it, and it is getting difficult to find anyone who will perform a circumcision. The hospital in which I gave birth to my son had no one on staff who would perform one.

The Canadian Pediatric Society says this:

Risks and benefits of circumcision

Problems from the surgery are usually minor. Although serious complications are rare, they do occur. Newborn circumcision has been associated with surgical mistakes, such as having too much skin removed.

Of every 1,000 boys who are circumcised:

*

20 to 30 will have a surgical complication, such as too much bleeding or infection in the area.
*

2 to 3 will have a more serious complication that needs more treatment. Examples include having too much skin removed or more serious bleeding.
*

2 will be admitted to hospital for a urinary tract infection (UTI) before they are one year old.
* About 10 babies may need to have the circumcision done again because of a poor result.

In rare cases, pain relief methods and medicines can cause side effects and complications. You should talk to your baby’s doctor about the possible risks.

Of every 1,000 boys who are not circumcised:

* 7 will be admitted to hospital for a UTI before they are one year old.

* 10 will have a circumcision later in life for medical reasons, such as a condition called phimosis. Phimosis is when the opening of the foreskin is scarred and narrow because of infections in the area that keep coming back. Older children who are circumcised may need a general anesthetic, and may have more complications than newborns.

Link

Mods? Help?

There's nothing at all wrong with beauty, and that was not what I said. There's a difference between appreciating beauty -- which we all do -- and being obsessed by it to the point of it beung the main criteria for a person's worth -- which is what modern Western society tends towards. I can assure you, not all societis are that obsessed. Some even go to the other extreme, that of concealing feminine beauty--see many Muslim societies!

So no: while all people are drawn to beauty -- whether in nature, in other people or in the arts-- decidedly not all are obsessed by it.

And it's just wrong IMO pinion to encouage young girls to seek their worth in their beauty, and to encourage them to pin their self-esteem on physical characteristics; and priming young girls to look like sexy women has nothing at all to do with the natural, healty beauty of children.

Attracting a mate is not the only goal on life.
And self-assertion which is attached to physical beauty is often just another word for arrogance.

Roger J Carlson said:

Every society is beauty-obsessed. There's a lot of evidence that seeking out beautiful mates is instinctual in the same way that peahens select the most impressive peacock.

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Devil Ledbetter said:

Very true Roger. In terms of mate selection, beauty indicates health. In turn, health indicates successful offspring.

We evolved to choose beautiful mates.

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BenPanced said:

Mods? Help?

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*G* This thing sure has taken a new direction, Ben...

About the most important organ thing, its A JOKE PEOPLE!

JOOOOOOOOOKEEEEEEEE!

I mean, really! I may be 19, and teenagers can be stupid about this kind of thing, but jeeze!

aadams73 said:

Sometimes karma is a zipper waiting to catch Frank and the Beans in an unguarded moment.

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OMG, my new band... Frank and the Beans.

What kind of music would Frank and the Beans play?

Rhythm and blueballs of course.

C*ck rock?


On topic - I don't agree with child beauty pagents, but they ain't my kids so I can't do much about it.

Roger J Carlson said:

"Problems involving the penis are encountered relatively frequently in pediatric practice [324]. A retrospective study of boys aged 4 months to 12 years found uncircumcised boys exhibited significantly greater frequency of penile problems (14% vs 6%; P < 0.001) and medical visits for penile problems (10% vs 5%; P < 0.05) compared with those who were circumcised."

link

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Oh, I see. Amputation on spec.

Does the study say how many of that 8% "increase" in "penile problems" would require foreskin amputation as the remedy?

From your link,

There are no deaths today from medical circumcisions in developed countries.

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British Columbia in 2002 isn't in a developed country "today"?

Nor is London in 2004, apparently. At least by Wiswell's standards.

Or Miami in 1993.


Or Cleveland in 1998.

Or Ontario in 2007.

Sorry, but I can't put much stock in the claims made by this circinfo.net you keep linking to. To deny these very real circ-related deaths and in fact lie by claiming there have been no circ deaths in recent times, in developed countries is just irresponsible.

ETA: Unless the author was being clever, meaning simply, "no infant died from circ complication today, the exact day I wrote this slanted opinion piece."

aruna said:

There's nothing at all wrong with beauty, and that was not what I said. There's a difference between appreciating beauty -- which we all do -- and being obsessed by it to the point of it beung the main criteria for a person's worth -- which is what modern Western society tends towards. I can assure you, not all societis are that obsessed. Some even go to the other extreme, that of concealing feminine beauty--see many Muslim societies!

So no: while all people are drawn to beauty -- whether in nature, in other people or in the arts-- decidedly not all are obsessed by it.

And it's just wrong IMO pinion to encouage young girls to seek their worth in their beauty, and to encourage them to pin their self-esteem on physical characteristics; and priming young girls to look like sexy women has nothing at all to do with the natural, healty beauty of children.

Attracting a mate is not the only goal on life.
And self-assertion which is attached to physical beauty is often just another word for arrogance.

Click to expand...

If I may. Is it possible that you may be underestimating these people and playing into the stereotype the 'pretty people' are just empty headed bobble heads that only care about beauty?

Yes, they may do the pageants and spend money on dresses and all that, but isn't it possible that they may also read a book from time to time, do other ventures....

In short, is it possible that they may be just as smart as you and capable of being multi-dimensional rather than JUST being defined by this singular event.

Much of this thread is started to read like "THOSE PEOPLE..." and we are taking a superior stand basing our viewpoints on our life experiences because we know best.

Is it possible that many (dare I say the majority) of parents ensure to keep this healthy and ensure that their children realize the other facets of life. Is it possible that these parents might be just as culpable and capable as you but merely just have a different opinion on this subject and allow their children to compete.

I know it is sexy to focus on that extreme parent who takes this too far, or to focus on just the negative aspects of the beauty pageant.

I maintain that there is very little in life that is DEFACTO EVIL. I find that many views on this thread stem from that standpoint. And then there comes addition rationalizations to ascert the utter uselessness of it along with the negative value of it. Despite the fact that Beauty is a BILLION dollar a year business and a vital part of our culture and society even to the point were we are hardwire from an evolutionary standpoint.

Is it possible that we may be letting our emotion centers get the best of us in regards to this argument?

Mel...

p.s. and I don't mean to infer just you, my 'you' and 'we' are general to encompass the thread as a whole

scarletpeaches said:

When do we start talking about beauty contests for foreskins?

Don't worry, I'm going out now.

Bai!

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As soon as we vote on Miss Camel Toe 2009.

I don't think beauty pageants are ethical in general, but people enjoy them and that's that. As for children, there exist all kinds of pageants out there that to do not sexually exploit children. There are as many good-hearted people as ill-intentioned; and I've met young children who absolutely enjoy and look forward to getting dressed up and show-boating around a stage.

That said, it is dangerous to evaluate and reinforce beauty in terms of already-established ideal appearances, ones especially that are impossible for everyday people to compare to.

I personally think that wearing skimpy dresses, lipstick, all sorts of makeup and dancing as-if-sexy are inappropriate activities for a child (and a little weirder for parents to watch, really) but that's not my decision unless or until I have children. What I will say instead is that for those of us who are offended, disgusted, etc. we can raise our children how we will and do it lovingly and never for profit; there absolutely are enjoyable activities for children that, while providing an actual basis for individuation to occur, will not implant false-ideals of beauty in them at terribly young ages.

But in that I'm likely preaching to the choir.


AMC

dgiharris said:

I

In short, is it possible that they may be just as smart as you and capable of being multi-dimensional rather than JUST being defined by this singular event.

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I've never denied being somewhat of a snob!

And the fact is, I've never met a well read, cultured, intelligent person who thinks that CBPs are positive things, or would ever place their daughter in a beauty pageant and subscribe to the kind of nonsense that we saw on Litte Miss Sunshine (which is based on actual contests; the girls there were real beauty pageant contestants). So yes, I think it does take a certain degree of ignorance to place a child in those contests.

Are their exceptions? Are there intelligent, cultured people who do this? Sure. But the very concept of it is so silly that the two are almost exclusionary. I cannot see how subjecting a little girl to this milieu canever be in keeping with good parenting.

And before you call me judgmental: yes, I know. It is a judgement. But I am as much allowed to make a judgement, according to my understanding of good parenting, as they are allowed to put their little girls in these contests.

A good parent would not encourage a little girl to think she is a really really beautiful princess, prettier than all the rest, because good parents know where that sort of thinking leads.

YOU may call my attitude emotional, snobbish, whatever; I say it simply comes from 58 years of living on this planet and a good general exposure to life; being a mother of a daughter and guiding her through the snares of a society which tries to convince her that she is what she looks.

It is possible to see the effects of too much focus on outer appearance without being emotional, by the way; simply by knowing the outcome. I've seen too many grown women stumble over their outer appearance to have an opinion on this without it being "emotional". The later beauty-awareness is implanted in girls, the better.

Another thing: the fact that "they are having fun" was never, in my book, a good argument for letting kids do this or that. Kids can have fun in thousands of ways. It is up to the adults in charge of them to make sure that fun is appropriate and safe. Developing vanity in a small child is neither.

As far as adults are concerned, it's another matter altogether. Adult women may have reasons for entering such a contest which have nothing to do with vanity. Sarah Palin I believe said she did it to get money to put herself through college. And when we were 16, back in Guyana, I entered my own best friend's name for the Miss Guyana contest. She took part, and came second. She did it not for vanity, but because first prize would have taken her back to England, where she desperately wanted to return but lacked the funds.

Unfortunately, all she won was a sewing machine!

aruna said:

I've never denied being somewhat of a snob!

And the fact is, I've never met a well read, cultured, intelligent person who thinks that CBPs are positive things, or would ever place their daughter in a beauty pageant and subscribe to the kind of nonsense that we saw on Litte Miss Sunshine (which is based on actual contests; the girls there were real beauty pageant contestants). So yes, I think it does take a certain degree of ignorance to place a child in those contests.

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I respect your opinion and appreciate your honesty. For what it is worth, I more or less agree with you, however, the more I think about this, the more I see it as a freedom argument.

There are those who argue against sports (I'm a big advocate of sports) and I'm fearful that my initial gut reaction is in the same vein as those who feel the same about sports as you feel about CBPs.

There are many aspects of society that I just completely do not get. The whole Hard Rock thing, Motorcycle Gangs, Goth stuff, etc. etc. But is it right for me to say they are 'wrong' because I don't agree with it? Or if I make a list of positives and negatives and 'my' list of negatives is greater than the list of positives does that prove it is wrong?

In the end, I have to default to the spirit of America that is freedom. And sometimes, that means freedom to be stupid. Perhaps, this is one of those instances.

Mel...

[

dgiharris said:

In the end, I have to default to the spirit of America that is freedom. And sometimes, that means freedom to be stupid. Perhaps, this is one of those instances.

Mel...

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I can defintely agree with you on this. I might be opinionated, but never once have I tried to hinder others in their stupidities.