Ayn Rand Movie Producers Need Your Money to Make Ayn Rand Movies

Marian Perera

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They are *asking* for money. Which is completely in line with Ayn Rand.

Agreed. In that respect, it's no different from the industrialists contributing to the building of the railway line in the novel. They wanted to pledge funds for something which would ultimately benefit them all, and they did. Unfortunately I can't see anyone, especially people who enjoyed the novel, getting anything out of the films.
 

J.S.F.

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Speaking just for myself, I enjoyed reading Atlas Shrugged and other Randian works, but the first movie was so amateurish I don't think I could possibly force myself to sit through another one.

But I would agree. Asking for money is more than acceptable in the Randian way of thinking. No obligation to give and no coercion...but I wouldn't do it, not if their sequels are going to be as putrid as the initial installment.

Really, The Fountainhead--with Gary Cooper, Patricia Neal, and Raymond Massey--was the best adaption of any of her novels. Very simple and straightforward and very well acted. Atlas Shrugged by comparison looked like a summer camp production.
 

nighttimer

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Pretty astute observation, I'd say, based entirely on this thread. Great job, NT!

Haters gotta Hate.

Ummm... What?

They are *asking* for money. Which is completely in line with Ayn Rand. I'm sure Ayn Rand, if she were alive to today, would very much like KickStarter. It is another extension of the Free Market -- that is, people putting money towards things that they want to see.

They are not forcing the money out of people's bank accounts and paychecks (on the threat of force or prison time) like governments do.

Interpret it anyway you wanna, the suggestion by the producers of Atlas Shrugged and Atlas Shrugged II: Electric Boogaloo (or is that 2 Atlas, 2 Shrugged) are simply following the Randian philosophy falls flat if you consider Rand's "Virtue of Selfishness."

Question: What does Ayn Rand mean when she describes selfishness as a virtue?

Answer: Ayn Rand rejects altruism, the view that self-sacrifice is the moral ideal. She argues that the ultimate moral value, for each human individual, is his or her own well-being. Since selfishness (as she understands it) is serious, rational, principled concern with one's own well-being, it turns out to be a prerequisite for the attainment of the ultimate moral value. For this reason, Rand believes that selfishness is a virtue.

In the introduction to her collection of essays on ethical philosophy, The Virtue of Selfishness (VOS), Rand writes that the "exact meaning" of selfishness is "concern with one's own interests" (VOS, p. vii). In that work, Rand argues that a virtue is an action by which one secures and protects one's rational values—ultimately, one's life and happiness. Since a concern with one's own interests is a character trait that, when translated into action, enables one to achieve and guard one's own well-being, it follows that selfishness is a virtue. One must manifest a serious concern for one's own interests if one is to lead a healthy, purposeful, fulfilling life.

Rand understands, though, that the popular usage of the word "selfish" is different from the meaning she ascribes to it. Many people use the adjective "selfish" to describe regard for one's own welfare to the disregard of the well-being of others. Moreover, many people would be willing to characterize any instance of desire-satisfaction in these circumstances as "selfish," no matter what its content. Thus, many people arrive at the following composite image: Selfish people are brutish people who are oblivious to the negative consequences of their actions for their friends and loved ones and who abuse the patience, trust, and goodwill of all comers to satisfy their petty whims.

Rand certainly recognizes that there are people who fit this description, and she certainly does not believe that their behavior is in any sense virtuous. But she opposes labeling them "selfish." Rand believes that this application of the word blurs important philosophical distinctions and foreordains false philosophical doctrines. First, this understanding of selfishness construes both whim-fulfillment and the disregard of others' interests as genuinely self-interested behaviors, which they are not. Second, this understanding of selfishness suggests an altruist framework for thinking about ethics.

Rand writes, "[A]ltruism permits no concept of a self-respecting, self-supporting man—a man who supports his own life by his own effort and neither sacrifices himself nor others…it permits no concept of benevolent co-existence among men…it permits no concept of justice" (VOS, p. ix).

For her, the truly selfish person is a self-respecting, self-supporting human being who neither sacrifices others to himself nor sacrifices himself to others. This value-orientation is brilliantly dramatized in the character of Howard Roark in The Fountainhead. The further elements of selfishness—the character traits that, when translated into action, implement a concern for one's own real interests—are discussed and illustrated in that work, in Atlas Shrugged, and throughout Rand's non-fiction.
Seems to me if you're a self-respecting, self-supporting human being, you'd best honoring Ayn Rand by not sacrificing your money for the benefit of another self-respecting, self-supporting human who should be sacrificing their money.

Not sayin'. Just sayin.' :rolleyes
 

frimble3

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And, if you like the idea of Kickstarter funding for film projects that otherwise wouldn't get made, why not donate to actual amateur film projects by film students, etc?
Projects that might spur them to greater heights, give them a chance to improve, maybe launch their careers, rather than give money to these guys who apparently have money, and squandered it on previous iterations of the same film, that were not well received?
 

chickenma

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What pisses me off about Ayn Rand is not "free markets". I like free markets. What pisses me off is that "free markets" is defined as Capitalism. Wrong! Capitalism is not about what people do with money, it is about how capital is created (see fractional reserve banking). Nothing free about it, and if capital and the population don't grow exponentially into infinity, we're all dead.

I myself am a "Libertarian Anti-Capitalist".
 

blacbird

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Rand understands, though, that the popular usage of the word "selfish" is different from the meaning she ascribes to it.
In other words, she's in line with Orwell's famous parodies of similar thinking, like "War is Peace" and "Slavery is Freedom". Hell, if you can define words to mean whatever you want them to mean, what exactly is your message? Blue is red? Dog is cat?

caw
 

Celia Cyanide

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And, if you like the idea of Kickstarter funding for film projects that otherwise wouldn't get made, why not donate to actual amateur film projects by film students, etc?
Projects that might spur them to greater heights, give them a chance to improve, maybe launch their careers, rather than give money to these guys who apparently have money, and squandered it on previous iterations of the same film, that were not well received?

Because you have no idea if the projects WILL spur the filmmakers to greater heights, launch their careers, or even be worth watching, and they probably won't.
 

Don

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Agorism FTW!
She argues that the ultimate moral value, for each human individual, is his or her own well-being.
Agreed. That's always seemed self-evident to me. (Aside: How one defines one's own well-being, an intensely personal process, has a great impact on how one treats others. The fireman, the soldier and the parent all consider the safety of others as fundamental to their own well-being.)
One must manifest a serious concern for one's own interests if one is to lead a healthy, purposeful, fulfilling life.
Ditto, although I don't always show that concern to the best of my ability, or I wouldn't be a smoker and would eat more veggies.
...the truly selfish person is a self-respecting, self-supporting human being who neither sacrifices others to himself nor sacrifices himself to others.
Yep, I'm three for three. That's actually in line with the conventional definition of selfishness, minus the vitriol and simple-mindedness that usually accompanies it and leaves no room for one who values voluntary charitable actions. Because we all know if it's not mandatory, it doesn't really count, and if it's voluntary, it's self-sacrifice and obviously not in line with one's own interests. :rolleyes:
Selfishness is placing concern with oneself or one's own interests above the well-being or interests of others.

What I'm obviously missing from this diatribe, indeed from the whole premise of the thread, is how one can make the logical leap that supporting something one wants to see come to fruition is considered self-sacrifice. The best guess I can come up with is I think there's a conflation of the terms "rational self-interest" and "greed."

If I donate to the local animal shelter because I want stray animals to have a humane environment, how is that self-sacrifice? I'm using the product of my efforts, my money, to support a goal I feel is worthy. If I donate to the local homeless shelter or church or women's shelter or name any other charity, it's not self-sacrifice if those donations advance goals I feel are worthy of my efforts.

If I donated money to this kickstarter, it would be because I want to see the movie come to fruition and have the opportunity to watch the result of the efforts of the hundreds of people involved in a movie production. Obviously, that's something I couldn't do on my own, so a contribution would still be in my interest, because seeing that movie made would be something I value.

That said, I wasn't particularly impressed with parts I or II, so I won't be donating.

As has been pointed out several times in the thread, this is a voluntary program right in line with the concept of peaceful cooperation to accomplish tasks too great for one person to accomplish on their own, something that most people would applaud if it didn't have the name "Ayn Rand" associated with it.

Of course, as the web site itself says,
“We know from our experience with the first two films that there is an incredible amount of vitriol out there and, we have every intention of capitalizing on it this time around,” they write. “As we launch the Kickstarter campaign, those haters are going to come ALIVE. They're going to come after us in droves attacking us everywhere online. To them, we say thank you. Thank you for helping us spread the word.” Gratitude, after all, is what is owed to those industrious few who produce."

What's most amusing about this thread is that it's played out exactly as the prediction above stated.
 
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Chrissy

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Selfishness has a bad rap.

Like Don said, having your own best interests at heart doesn't mean you climb all over other people, fangs dripping with greed.

It means (to me): I take care of myself, my family, my responsibilities. It's actually, paradoxically, also unselfish to have this as my priority, because in taking care of myself first, there's a lot better chance that other people won't have to take care of me.

I can't imagine it would work better if I didn't put myself and my family first... wouldn't that mean I have a corresponding expectation that someone else will pick up my slack?

I was raised in an fundamentalist home/church, and there was quite a lot of preaching and teaching about the evils of selfishness there, too. The evil of humanity, period. We were all born sinful and selfish according to the religion of my upbringing.

According to Rand-haters too, apparently. We need God government to save us from our evil ways.

Well no, wait. That's not quite right. It's everyone else that's evil. Not big government supporters, of course.

And that's my libertarian rant for the morning. You're welcome. :D
 

aimeestates

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So, selfishness is what led Ayn Rand to use resources she preached against when she fell ill so she wouldn't have to dip into her half mil? Okay, that makes perfect sense...

*sarcasm*

Still doesn't work as a philosophy because we can't foresee what personal tragedies might occur in the future (cancer, in her case). A nobler Ayn would have dipped into her own coffers or just died. It's--dare I say it-- almost amusing to see the eye opening epiphany experienced through total loss among the folks who believe they'll never need anything from anyone. They cave because they must survive, and THAT is what invalidates total centrality.
 
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Chrissy

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If you are referring to Social Security and Medicare, that was hers... she paid it in, via taxes, her whole life. I'm sure she paid a helluva lot more in than most people.

If you're referring to something else, never mind. :)
 

aimeestates

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She never accepted social security and medicaid on her own--she signed over power of attorney so SHE wouldn't have to. That's a pretty clear message. Accepting a service she opposed, just because she was taxed, disrespects her own views. A stronger stance is, "You made me suffer things I don't agree with, but you can't change me from who I am to what you want me to be." Ala Mandela. Caving after a person has basically dedicated their lives to preaching the opposite "just because" or "sigh, might as well" is weak. I would absolutely respect her--whether I agree with her philosophy or not--had she practiced what she preached to the end.
 

Chrissy

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She never accepted social security and medicaid on her own--she signed over power of attorney so SHE wouldn't have to. That's a pretty clear message.
Interesting. I had not heard that story. Did she say that's why she did it? Or is that speculation? If she said that, and thought it made any difference whatsoever that "the person I've appointed to represent me took it, it wasn't me"... she may have been a few fries short of a combo meal by then, because that makes zero sense.
Accepting a service she opposed, just because she was taxed, disrespects her own views. A stronger stance is, "You made me suffer things I don't agree with, but you can't change me from who I am to what you want me to be." Ala Mandela. Caving after a person has basically dedicated their lives to preaching the opposite "just because" or "sigh, might as well" is weak. I would absolutely respect her--whether I agree with her philosophy or not--had she practiced what she preached to the end.
Eh, I disagree. But that's cool. Not taking money she was entitled to because she had paid it in (albeit that her money was taken without her choice--which is the crux of the argument, that she was forced to contribute) is like cutting off your nose to spite your face. IMO.
 
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Chrissy

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TerzaRima

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Those who are butthurt about the Rand snark are missing a rather large part of the point--it's not only about the philosophy, but also about the writing. I mean, the bastard child of a fortune cookie and a dishwasher manual.
 

Don

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Those who are butthurt about the Rand snark are missing a rather large part of the point--it's not only about the philosophy, but also about the writing. I mean, the bastard child of a fortune cookie and a dishwasher manual.
Terrible philosophy, terrible writing... kinda makes you wonder why it continues to sell hundreds of thousands of copies every year, with more than 8 million sold since first publication, and why it's never been out of print. Maybe they're all bought as presents and not for consumption... like fruitcake.

People are just heathens, I guess.

ETA: :sarcasm <= for those who don't know me.
 

aimeestates

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...and the hilarity of giving a book from a selfish atheist as a Christmas gift. I honestly kind of love that one.
 

aimeestates

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Also, the Bible has sold more copies than any other book. Doesn't make it a great read.
 

benbradley

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Or maybe it's just a few people buying all those millions of copies. I'm sure I personally have three thousand of them under my bed.
No! You need to give them back to The Organization so they can give them back to the book distributors, so they get back into the stores where you can buy them again. That's what "those" people did with Battlefield Earth that got its sales figures up. I read where copies were showing up from the distributors with price tags "already" on them.
 

frimble3

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Because you have no idea if the projects WILL spur the filmmakers to greater heights, launch their careers, or even be worth watching, and they probably won't.
True, (some films will be crap, and some will be pretentious crap) but until they make that first movie, it's Schrodinger's film-festival, a mass of untested potential, they might be great.
Unlike giving money to people who have already wasted all their own on crap movies of their own, giving to the untried has hope at it's heart.
Okay, it's probably foolish, misplaced hope, but it's Kickstarter, surely no-one is going to mortgage their house for someone else's film.
 

TerzaRima

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Terrible philosophy, terrible writing... kinda makes you wonder why it continues to sell hundreds of thousands of copies every year, with more than 8 million sold since first publication, and why it's never been out of print.

I'm not trying to be an asshole (I seem to be saying that a lot lately) but using that metric, The Bachelor and Two and a Half Men are much better shows than, say, Breaking Bad. Twilight beats anything John Updike ever wrote. Justin Bieber...I'd go on, but I suspect I'm being an asshole.