m/f sex in m/m romance - disrespectful?

Latina Bunny · Jul 4, 2013

I haven't read that particular article yet, but I do follow that review site (and a couple of other ones) when looking for recommendations/reviews of m/m.

I am aware that blog does have some issues with some het females writing m/m stuff (which I could sort of understand in some ways, sort of).

BUT don't think it's disrespectful to include m/f as long as:

1)the focal relationship is on the m/m,
2) the sex is not too indepth (unless it's a mmf or something similar)
and/or
3) this is hinted at in blurb or is generally labeled. (NOT in the warnings/triggers section, though! Consensual sex should NOT be a trigger. I'm still annoyed that m/m sex was sometimes a warning--when it's already a m/m story!)

I'm one of those people who like to have a general sense what I'm sampling. I'm naturally picky, so I like for things to be labeled or hinted at. If I'm looking for m/f, there are millions (like there are white, male protagonists in media) of m/f out there. If I wanted m/m erotic romance/romance, I'd better be getting m/m (or m/m/m, etc). Same with my m/f.

(I'm the same with same with BDSM. If I wanted that, I would want it labeled as such. I wouldn't want a book that started vanilla and then had some BDSM elements thrown in halfway halfwayor in the end.)

I wonder why I think like this, though? I can't really explain it... I do read erotic lesbian stuff, (and I think I may be bi?), so I don't think it's because of the female body, lol.

Maybe it's because I prefer to read sweet m/f, which is why I read Harlequins and Historical Romances? Hmm...

thethinker42 · Jul 4, 2013

Chasing the Horizon said:
I've been working on perfecting an idea for an erotic romance for a year or so now. I'm really enthused about the idea (which is M/M/F, M/F/M, M/M, and M/F in various scenes), but seeing attitudes like the one in the blog post and some in this thread make me not even want to bother (though I will grant that some of what's been going on in SF&F lately makes me wonder if I want to be a part of that either *sigh*).

I'm writing one right now that has MMF, MM, MF, and FF in it. I've also published one bisexual book (MMF) that's not had any major backlash. Though there are lots of anti-ladybit squeaky wheels, there are plenty of people who *do* enjoy that stuff and *will* read them.

I would definitely write it. For every story, there are readers.

VanessaNorth · Jul 4, 2013

KimJo said:
Wave (and others on her site) has very strong opinions. I got involved last year in a debate based on an assertion in a post there that LGBT young adult fiction should include explicit, graphic sex scenes because authors should be showing gay men in their late teens/early 20s how to have gay sex properly (or something like that, it was a while back and I can't find the post now). My statement (and, as i recall, statements from others) that young adult fiction is intended for ages 12-18, not for actual *adults* who are on the young end of the adult range, was shouted down. Commenters (again as I recall, including Wave) went on to say that in that case, the entire publishing industry should rename the category because calling it young adult if it's intended for teens is misleading.

This is the same type of post. Wave is entitled to review what she wants and to complain about what she feels should be complained about. It's her blog. And she can certainly want to change things about the publishing industry and blog about her wish that things be changed. I don't necessarily disagree with her that the *blurb* or description of a book should include indication of any non-genre pairing (for example, the presence of het sex in an M/M, or the presence of lesbian sex in a het book, or whatever). NOT as a warning label, though; just as a statement. I say this as someone whose recent Loose Id title has been thwapped a few times for containing an oral sex scene between Hero 1 and his female ex-fiancee.

But the way Wave presents her opinion in the post this thread is about comes across as abrasive and accusatory, and that's unfortunate. It closes the door to healthy debate and puts both sides on the defensive, in my opinion.

Oh, ffs, blurbs are limited to what, 150 words? I am not going to waste valuable copy space on minor story details. That is ridiculous.

"btw, on page sixty-whatever the heroine's gay best friend gets a handjob from his boyfriend."

"on page twenty-something, the hero remembers that time in high school he was making out with a girl and lost his erection and kind of figured he might not like girls afterall"

These things may be relevant to the plot, but they are absolutely not major enough details to rate taking over the big picture marketing copy.

Filigree · Jul 4, 2013

Seconding Lori's opinion, ChasingTheHorizon, write the thing and don't censor it to other people's expectations. If you give up, the nitwits win.

iron9567 · Jul 4, 2013

This whole genre is out of my reading list. Not that I dislike it all together I just tend to read other genres more. I can see where some people would get upset having certain settings thrown into the story they are reading. I look at this as it's the writers job to write the story how they are picturing it in their head. If it has a m/f scene in a m/m then so be it. You will never please every one. The only person a writer needs to please is themselves. If they think the story needs the scene then put it in there.
JMHO
thanks
iron

Chasing the Horizon · Jul 4, 2013

thethinker42 said:
I'm writing one right now that has MMF, MM, MF, and FF in it. I've also published one bisexual book (MMF) that's not had any major backlash. Though there are lots of anti-ladybit squeaky wheels, there are plenty of people who *do* enjoy that stuff and *will* read them.

I would definitely write it. For every story, there are readers.

I just feel like every time I read a discussion in erotic romance they say people don't like to read what I plan to write. My story is BDSM with the woman Dominant and people don't like that. My story has character death and romance readers don't like that. My story mixes M/M with M/F and apparently they don't like that either. By the time it's all said and done there will probably be five people left in the world who'd read my story.

Or maybe I'm just already so mad at the SF&F world that I'm taking it out on you guys. Rejection I can take, but seeing attitudes that make me not even want to submit in the first place gets to me.

thethinker42 · Jul 4, 2013

Chasing the Horizon said:
I just feel like every time I read a discussion in erotic romance they say people don't like to read what I plan to write. My story is BDSM with the woman Dominant and people don't like that. My story has character death and romance readers don't like that. My story mixes M/M with M/F and apparently they don't like that either. By the time it's all said and done there will probably be five people left in the world who'd read my story.

Or maybe I'm just already so mad at the SF&F world that I'm taking it out on you guys. Rejection I can take, but seeing attitudes that make me not even want to submit in the first place gets to me.

There will always be something in any story that will piss someone off. As writers, all we can do is tell the truth, and let the chips fall where they will.

For what it's worth, I've had "THIS BOOK IS TOO LONG" and "THIS BOOK IS TOO SHORT", as well as "TOO MUCH SEX" and "NOT ENOUGH SEX"...for the same book. Can't please everyone.

VanessaNorth · Jul 4, 2013

Chasing the Horizon said:
I just feel like every time I read a discussion in erotic romance they say people don't like to read what I plan to write. My story is BDSM with the woman Dominant and people don't like that. My story has character death and romance readers don't like that. My story mixes M/M with M/F and apparently they don't like that either. By the time it's all said and done there will probably be five people left in the world who'd read my story.

Or maybe I'm just already so mad at the SF&F world that I'm taking it out on you guys. Rejection I can take, but seeing attitudes that make me not even want to submit in the first place gets to me.

You'd be surprised! My book with the lesbian scene is a paranormal in which one of the three MCs dies--and it's my second best-selling book. I've heard nothing negative from readers about either the bisexual heroine or the death of a major character.

Chasing the Horizon · Jul 4, 2013

Thanks, Lori and Vanessa. Somewhere deep inside I know I should just write what I think is fun. I guess I just got tired of people dismissing entire pairings/themes before they even look at the story in question.

(I'll come back with a more in-depth response in a little while)

amergina · Jul 4, 2013

As a writer, be bold and take risks.

That's my motto.

So CtH, write, write, write! Heck, I'll read it if no one else will. I like stuff with a little bit of everything in it.

Darklite · Jul 4, 2013

I think labelling is the way to go. That way the readers know what they’re going to get pairing-wise, and there won’t be any unexpected surprises. I make no apologies for wanting my m/m pure, but I also appreciate there are also a lot of readers out there who are more open-minded than me when it comes to their erotica

sunandshadow · Jul 4, 2013

VanessaNorth said:
Rape is a trigger. Consenting sex between adults is not.

The first sex scene in my first novel was an explicit lesbian scene between characters who loved each other deeply. To put that on par with rape or excessive violence is disrespectful.

Everything triggers somebody, and some people think rape is hawt. In terms of percentage of erotica readers who are squicked by some type of sex, rape is on a par with loving lesbian sex between consenting adults. In other terms, no they are not morally on par, but I don't think that's as relevant to this conversation as reader squicks.

Captcha · Jul 5, 2013

sunandshadow said:
Everything triggers somebody, and some people think rape is hawt. In terms of percentage of erotica readers who are squicked by some type of sex, rape is on a par with loving lesbian sex between consenting adults. In other terms, no they are not morally on par, but I don't think that's as relevant to this conversation as reader squicks.

Do you have a source for that rape:lesbian sex equation? (I really hope it's just something you made up, because I don't want it to be true).

But even if it is true, too fucking bad for people who are squicked by loving lesbian sex. Because "squicked" is not nearly the same as traumatized or triggered.

I've never been raped. So when I come across it in a book, maybe I am just squicked. If it's written in what I consider to be an appropriate way (presented as a horrible thing), I'm actually okay with it. If it's written in what I consider to be an inappropriate way (presented as natural, or a path to true love) I'd call my reaction offended, saddened, or disgusted, but whatever - let's say squicked.

But someone who has been raped, or has been the victim of other forms of sexual trauma or violence, can be totally taken apart by the depiction. It can be a serious emotional blow for them.

So, sure, when I wrote a book that contained references to child molestation and sexual assault, I was happy that the publisher put warnings on it. I think I wrote about the topics in the "right" way, but there may be others who disagree, or more importantly, there may be people for whom there is no right way to write about those topics. I don't want my books to hurt them.

But loving lesbian sex? Or, back to the OP, m/f sex in a m/m novel? There's nothing triggering about that. There's nothing morally questionable about it. Saying that they should all receive warning labels makes them sound equivalent. And equating activity that's within the natural and healthy range of human sexuality with rape is demeaning to the activities and demeaning to people who are triggered by the legitimate trauma (for some) of reading about rape.

gingerwoman · Jul 5, 2013

Perhaps I think too much along commercial and genre lines. I don't really understand why you would set out to write a male/male romance and then put some m/f sex in it. To me it then becomes either a general erotic book where you just have a range of sexual experiences like the old black lace books, or something like what I currently write MMF.

firedrake · Jul 5, 2013

gingerwoman said:
Perhaps I think too much along commercial and genre lines. I don't really understand why you would set out to write a male/male romance and then put some m/f sex in it. To me it then becomes either a general erotic book where you just have a range of sexual experiences like the old black lace books, or something like what I currently write MMF.

Not that I feel I have to justify this to you or anyone else, but my first m/m novel has a very brief m/f sex scene in it. I wrote it to illustrate, without having to spell things out in words of more than one syllable, that the MC and his girlfriend's relationship was circling the drain. Given that the book has been my best seller (still selling nearly 2 years after release), that particular scene doesn't appear to have upset too many readers or made them rend their garments in disgust at my 'disrespect'.
Sometimes, there are very sound reasons for mixing it up.

thethinker42 · Jul 5, 2013

I'm not going to address the issue of lesbian sex being a trigger on par with rape, because I will probably get myself banned if I do. As someone who has been sexually assaulted, and who has also had consensual sex with women, I'm just...not going there.

gingerwoman said:
Perhaps I think too much along commercial and genre lines. I don't really understand why you would set out to write a male/male romance and then put some m/f sex in it. To me it then becomes either a general erotic book where you just have a range of sexual experiences like the old black lace books, or something like what I currently write MMF.

It just depends on the story.

*Most* straight men probably haven't had sex with other men, never mind relationships with them. *Most* of them probably haven't experimented with other men, or been involved with them while they were sorting out their sexuality.

For gay men, it's not terribly uncommon for them to have had relationships with women either before coming out or before figuring out their sexuality. (Plus...bi men.) As an example, I have a story involving a closeted politician who is married to a woman. During one scene, he's telling the love interest about the moment his wife figured out he was gay, and that happened while they were having sex.

“It was kind of weird how it happened.” He moved a little closer to me and rested a hand on my hip. “Wasn’t exactly how I’d envisioned telling her.”
“How so?”
“We were, well, in bed.” His cheeks darkened, and he swallowed hard. “By that point, I’d been thinking for a long time about telling her, trying to find the right time and wondering how the hell to word it. And I hadn’t been able to bring myself to turn her away, you know, in bed, because going through the motions was just easier.” He went quiet, his eyes losing focus. Then he sighed. “Anyway. I guess she…I don’t know, she picked up on something. Like she realized I was just going through the motions. So she stops, right in the middle of everything, and she looks me in the eye and asks if there’s someone else.”
I blinked. “She thought you were cheating?”
Jesse nodded. “Yeah, and I was horrified. I’d never cheat on someone. I just, I didn’t know how to respond to that. So she said she knew something was going on, something was obviously wrong, and would I just tell her now and be done with it rather than acting like everything was okay.” He moistened his lips, and his voice fell to a whisper. “So I told her.”
“What did she say?”
“She just stared at me for a minute. I mean, we’re literally naked in bed, had just been having sex, and suddenly…I’m gay. I can’t even imagine what went through her head, but it was damn sure the most surreal moment of my life.” He shifted his gaze away from me and chewed his lower lip. His eyebrows knitted together like this entire train of thought physically hurt him. Barely whispering, he said, “And all I could think was how she was going to hate me, and why didn’t I tell her a long time ago instead of hurting her like this. But then she asked me how long I’d known, why I hadn’t told her, all of that. She wasn’t angry or defensive, just kind of stunned, I guess.”

Totally tame, just *referring* to them having sex. And yes, some people were upset over it. (Jessewave gave it a 5-star review, though, so I guess a mention in passing is acceptable) But it was also part of that character's arc. It was a very raw and vulnerable moment for both the POV character and his wife, since they'd gone from being intimate to accusations of infidelity, and there was no way I was leaving that out just because it involved *mentioning* that he'd had his penis in her vagina at the time.

The thing is, I would venture to guess that more gay men have had sex with women than straight men have had sex with men. By a substantial margin. Consequently, hetero sexual encounters are going to show up in M/M romances more often than gay sexual encounters will show up in hetero romances. Sometimes in flashbacks, sometimes mentioned in passing, and *sometimes*, depending on the story, on the screen because it's relevant to the journey toward the happy ending.

And labeling gets tricky at that point. If the woman is not part of The Relationship, then it's not a menage, so it can't be labeled as such. If the sexual encounter is in the past--but is important enough to be part of the story--then it's also not MMF. Also, blurbs have to be short, sweet, and catchy. It's simply not going to be practical to mention every time that there's mention of het sex (and for the record, I don't like warnings about male sexual content either). And yes, having a character have sex with someone else after they've met their love interest is breaking a cardinal rule of romance, but sometimes it happens, and sometimes it's a significant part of pushing the character toward his happily ever after.

Don't get me wrong: I'm not advocating we all spring het and lesbian sex on readers. For the most part, they don't show up in M/M books (I have no idea where Wave is getting all these books with vaginas in them, because I think I can count on one hand the number of M/M books I've read with female sexuality in them). Sometimes, though, the story calls for it. And sometimes, it's neither possible nor practical to label the story.

And I do understand that not all readers care for that. That's fine. There are things that show up frequently in M/M books that *I* don't care for either. But you won't hear me accusing the author of "disrespecting" me by including it in the story, especially if it's--regardless of my tastes--part of the story.

VanessaNorth · Jul 5, 2013

thethinker42 said:
I'm not going to address the issue of lesbian sex being a trigger on par with rape, because I will probably get myself banned if I do. As someone who has been sexually assaulted, and who has also had consensual sex with women, I'm just...not going there.

It just depends on the story.

*Most* straight men probably haven't had sex with other men, never mind relationships with them. *Most* of them probably haven't experimented with other men, or been involved with them while they were sorting out their sexuality.

For gay men, it's not terribly uncommon for them to have had relationships with women either before coming out or before figuring out their sexuality. (Plus...bi men.) As an example, I have a story involving a closeted politician who is married to a woman. During one scene, he's telling the love interest about the moment his wife figured out he was gay, and that happened while they were having sex.

Totally tame, just *referring* to them having sex. And yes, some people were upset over it. (Jessewave gave it a 5-star review, though, so I guess a mention in passing is acceptable) But it was also part of that character's arc. It was a very raw and vulnerable moment for both the POV character and his wife, since they'd gone from being intimate to accusations of infidelity, and there was no way I was leaving that out just because it involved *mentioning* that he'd had his penis in her vagina at the time.

The thing is, I would venture to guess that more gay men have had sex with women than straight men have had sex with men. By a substantial margin. Consequently, hetero sexual encounters are going to show up in M/M romances more often than gay sexual encounters will show up in hetero romances. Sometimes in flashbacks, sometimes mentioned in passing, and *sometimes*, depending on the story, on the screen because it's relevant to the journey toward the happy ending.

And labeling gets tricky at that point. If the woman is not part of The Relationship, then it's not a menage, so it can't be labeled as such. If the sexual encounter is in the past--but is important enough to be part of the story--then it's also not MMF. Also, blurbs have to be short, sweet, and catchy. It's simply not going to be practical to mention every time that there's mention of het sex (and for the record, I don't like warnings about male sexual content either). And yes, having a character have sex with someone else after they've met their love interest is breaking a cardinal rule of romance, but sometimes it happens, and sometimes it's a significant part of pushing the character toward his happily ever after.

Don't get me wrong: I'm not advocating we all spring het and lesbian sex on readers. For the most part, they don't show up in M/M books (I have no idea where Wave is getting all these books with vaginas in them, because I think I can count on one hand the number of M/M books I've read with female sexuality in them). Sometimes, though, the story calls for it. And sometimes, it's neither possible nor practical to label the story.

And I do understand that not all readers care for that. That's fine. There are things that show up frequently in M/M books that *I* don't care for either. But you won't hear me accusing the author of "disrespecting" me by including it in the story, especially if it's--regardless of my tastes--part of the story.

I know we've talked about that being my favorite book of yours in the past (still is!) and a big part of that is Jesse's relationship with his wife.

Where There's Smoke is a PRIME example of how m/f relationships in m/m fiction can play a vital role in plot and character development.

VanessaNorth · Jul 5, 2013

On the subject of triggering:

Triggering makes a person feel the emotions they experienced during a time of intense trauma.

I recently had a triggering experience after reading the comments on an internet article on rape culture. In the weeks that followed, I experienced panic attacks, insomnia and some other, much more upsetting symptoms.

If reading about two women in love having sex triggers panic attacks, a warning label isn't going to help that reader. What will they do when they see two women kissing on the street? holding hands in the grocery store? Getting married?

LJD · Jul 5, 2013

The blog post appears to be gone...

firedrake · Jul 5, 2013

VanessaNorth said:
On the subject of triggering:

Triggering makes a person feel the emotions they experienced during a time of intense trauma.

I recently had a triggering experience after reading the comments on an internet article on rape culture. In the weeks that followed, I experienced panic attacks, insomnia and some other, much more upsetting symptoms.

If reading about two women in love having sex triggers panic attacks, a warning label isn't going to help that reader. What will they do when they see two women kissing on the street? holding hands in the grocery store? Getting married?

Agreed.

I think some people tend to apply 'trigger' to anything that could possibly offend them, rather than consider what the term actually means.

dolores haze · Jul 5, 2013

LJD said:
The blog post appears to be gone...

Dammit. I read it in a rush yesterday and today I wanted to go back and see if it really contained the phrase "blindsided by a vagina." Did it? Anyone remember? Not sure why I'm so interested. Maybe just the absurd images it is giving me.

amergina · Jul 5, 2013

LJD said:
The blog post appears to be gone...

Yup. It was deleted from the site.

It was also screencapped for posterity:

http://sashalmiller.com/images/jessewave.jpg

thethinker42 · Jul 5, 2013

dolores haze said:
Dammit. I read it in a rush yesterday and today I wanted to go back and see if it really contained the phrase "blindsided by a vagina." Did it? Anyone remember? Not sure why I'm so interested. Maybe just the absurd images it is giving me.

LOL.

So there we were, sitting by the fire and reading, just minding our own business, when suddenly...

...VAGINAS.

VanessaNorth · Jul 5, 2013

thethinker42 said:
LOL.

So there we were, sitting by the fire and reading, just minding our own business, when suddenly...

...VAGINAS.

That must have been so traumatic for you. Here, have a cookie. I baked them with extra self-loathing.

thethinker42 · Jul 5, 2013

VanessaNorth said:
That must have been so traumatic for you. Here, have a cookie. I baked them with extra self-loathing.

Only if they're penis-shaped.

m/f sex in m/m romance - disrespectful?

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