Evidence for Jesus/Messiah

The Jewish people don't require much. There are many things that the messiah is supposed to do, but it is accepted belief that many of them can be done by anyone. Until recently, it was the standard belief that the person who rebuilt the Holy Temple would be the messiah. Now, many believe that since it has been so long since we've had it, that we are allowed to build it before he comes; however, there is not a single group of Orthodox Jews attempting to do this because of the situation over there (PLEASE do not get into that, because I don't feel like discussing it AGAIN).

So basically, it will be the guy who rebuilds the Temple. The belief/prophecy is also that he will win a huge war against an evil nation, bring all the Jews back to Israel, reinstate Torah law in the land of Israel, bring about world peace, and cause--through all that other stuff--the whole world to realise that Hashem is the One True God. Those are pretty big, specific things which would be impossible for a false messiah to do. The war is probably the worst part, which is why the Talmud is full of statements from people saying they want to the messiah to come but they hope they don't have to witness his coming.

Of course, I'm an atheist, so I don't think any of this will happen, but neither did a large portion of Jews until the destruction of the Second Temple.

ETA: Just to be clear, the messiah in Judaism has no divinity whatsoever. He is simply a man descended from Solomon who simply is picked by God to lead the Jews out of exile. The word Moshiach, which is often translated as messiah, means anointed one and can refer to a priest, a king, or an official--in fact, it is used many, many times in the Bible to refer to such people, including non-Jews. There is nothing divine about it.

another atheist here.

What would I require to believe that someone was a god/messiah/word of choice?

Miracles. In laboratory settings. That were repeatable (by this character). Turn water into wine, repeatedly, under conditions where there's no possibility for the guy being a charlatan.

And yeah, I know that the whole point of religion is that it's something that you believe in without evidence. But I'm not going to convert to Christianity, Islam, or Georgeism just because someone says they're right.

But believe me, if lab testing proved that someone was actually capable of performing miracles, I'd join his/her religion posthaste. F'reals

okay, fair enough

Then I'd demand a full DNA analysis.

Honestly, if an alien could turn water into wine , raise people from the dead, and feed whole populations ON DEMAND, I'd be cool with worshiping him

Hmmm...I suppose that means I'd have to be a Christian or a Jew in the first place, wouldn't I?

Kateness said:

another atheist here.

What would I require to believe that someone was a god/messiah/word of choice?

Miracles. In laboratory settings. That were repeatable (by this character). Turn water into wine, repeatedly, under conditions where there's no possibility for the guy being a charlatan.

And yeah, I know that the whole point of religion is that it's something that you believe in without evidence. But I'm not going to convert to Christianity, Islam, or Georgeism just because someone says they're right.

But believe me, if lab testing proved that someone was actually capable of performing miracles, I'd join his/her religion posthaste. F'reals

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For miracles like that, I'd want some sort of controlled testing. Doing all the stuff the Jews require of the messiah would be enough for me though, since they basically involve the entire world--if I believed in that stuff that is.

As far as DNA testing goes, even the NT excludes the J-man from being the messiah through his (conflicting) genealogical record. DNA testing would be nice, but I don't think we'd have anything to compare it to from King Solomon.

the DNA testing was for the alien comment

Oh, I totally missed that post, haha.

As a Christian, I have sometimes pondered this. Many people during the last 2000 years have claimed to be a messiah, and intelligent and devout people have followed them. Not all have been led to a Jim Jones/Heaven's Gate/David Koresh doom, but in my belief they got to "the other side" and found out that they were wrong.

The short answer is that I don't know. I would look for consistency between the person's (and not necessarily their followers') words and actions and if following their beliefs benefited others. Following this person would also have to bring me closer to those with different beliefs (rather than closer to a like-minded hive of a paranoid elite). I took a 15-year break from the religion of my upbringing, and decided to remain a Christian after asking myself these very questions, as well as a lot of prayer and reflection. Acceptance of divinity is a much harder question than an acceptance of philosophy. But that's why it is called faith. Knowledge is belief based on answers, faith is belief in spite of questions. It's okay to not know.

if there was a god and he/she came back, i'm most certain they'd be a hell of a lot smarter than they were the first time around.

in my mind, unless he/she was coming with something which could not be denied, which i'd doubt, because even in the book of revelations there are still going to be those refusing to believe in the "last days", they'd have a hard time convincing most people of anything.

as for me though; i'd know.

JimmyB27 said:

I'm sure you would. But how would you know?

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jim, i apologize that i am unable to clarify my previous statement. i'd just know it.

I sometimes wonder if the whole concept of Jesus or the Messiah may be flawed in thinking that the return would be in the form of a man. Perhaps it would be in the form of a movement, or a natural occurrence designed to accomplish the deeds heralded by the creators return.. From a practicing agnostic,,, of course...

I don't know, but my guess is, those with faith in Jesus would believe; some who desire to have faith would be swayed. Those without faith would not be convinced.

Pretty much like now.

Williebee said:

I don't know, but my guess is, those with faith in Jesus would believe; some who desire to have faith would be swayed. Those without faith would not be convinced.

Pretty much like now.

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I think this is true. As the Bible says, if you believe it, not EVERYone will be saved. There will be some who never believe.

If someone were all powerful and required some sort of belief to be saved, I'd expect him to make me more predisposed to believe.

If someone claimed to be the Messiah, I'd probably ask him or her what his motivation was for being here.

I don't know, because you'd have to play with definitions. For example, the Bible says Jesus will return in the lifetime of the original twelve disciples, destroy the Roman empire, restore the Jews to Israel, and punish the emperor Nero. He couldn't do any of that, even if He exists and has godly powers.

There's a common belief in the US that first a one-world government will be established in Rome, and that its ruler will be a reincarnation of Nero. That's the theory behind books like The Left Behind series and movies like The Omen. I guess if something like that happened, I'd be looking out for Jesus.

The more conservative interpretation is that the second coming is only spiritual, and has already happened. For this to be true, I'd be looking for my standard proofs of any God or any religion, or really anything supernatural.

The next question is which show would he do: Leno, Letterman or Conan?

video clips of the latest miracle, shout out to the homeys, a promise of more after the break, and then the rapture between the beer and the little blue pill commercial.

Alpha Echo said:

I think this is true. As the Bible says, if you believe it, not EVERYone will be saved. There will be some who never believe.

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Actually, the prophecies for the messiah basically state that everyone will acknowledge God and the messiah. Probably the greatest indicator will be that even those staunchly against religion and a messiah will "see the light" so to speak.

Hey, if James Randi is convinced, I'll be convinced might investigate.

Kateness said:

okay, fair enough

Then I'd demand a full DNA analysis.

Honestly, if an alien could turn water into wine , raise people from the dead, and feed whole populations ON DEMAND, I'd be cool with worshiping him

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I'm reminded of that Twilight Zone episode "To Serve Man."

I'm with Lou Reed on this:

If you're like me I'm sure a minor miracle will do
A flaming sword or maybe a gold ark floating up the Hudson

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Williebee said:

The next question is which show would he do: Leno, Letterman or Conan?

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This question means to me: whose show do I like better?