Israel live tweets its own offensive into Gaza

J.S.F.

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Got any cites to support the recent "suicide bomber" accusation you've made?

I would hate to find the accusation to be a bunch of smoke and mirrors.
---

Got any cites to counterract the recent statement I made about the Palestinians (and other terrorists) digging tunnels from the Sinai into Israel and the Palestinians stockpiling weapons in the Gaza strip?

Don't bother shooting yourself in the foot. You've already done it...or you can borrow the gun from the people you support.
 

Manuel Royal

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... civilian casualties are always going to occur, unfortunate as that is. The alternative would be never carrying out any offensives against terrorist organizations
. No, that's not the only alternative.

Ken said:
Every time one of these leaders is taken out the world is that much safer.
Explain the logic underlying that conclusion, please.
 

raburrell

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---

Got any cites to counterract the recent statement I made about the Palestinians (and other terrorists) digging tunnels from the Sinai into Israel and the Palestinians stockpiling weapons in the Gaza strip?
Since you ducked sulong's question, the last suicide bombing in Israel was in Feb 2008 - over four years ago. The last bus bombing was March of last year. I hope to god it stays that way.

Yes, there are tunnels in Gaza. Yes, they're used to smuggle who-knows what, including weapons. (but not exclusively). Israel knows where they are at least as well as Hamas does.
 

J.S.F.

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Since you ducked sulong's question, the last suicide bombing in Israel was in Feb 2008 - over four years ago. The last bus bombing was March of last year. I hope to god it stays that way.

Yes, there are tunnels in Gaza. Yes, they're used to smuggle who-knows what, including weapons. (but not exclusively). Israel knows where they are at least as well as Hamas does.

-----

No, I didn't duck it. I didn't respond at the time as I was searching on Mr. Google. Yes, correct, the last documented suicide bombing in Israel, according to reports, was in 2008. Now, since sulong decided to duck my question about the tunnels (which, yes, are used to transport mainly weapons but also food, personnel, illegal immigrants, etc.)and you opted to answer for her, you also forgot to mention the stockpiled weaponry in the Gaza strip.

Mentioning that Israel knows where the tunnels are (or they have a pretty good idea most of the time) really doesn't add to the conversation.

BTW, I'm not angry with you or sulong. It just pisses me off when I see this BS, one-sided reporting on the plight of the Palestinians and the so-called 'evil' Israelis. Don't believe me? Check out some of the BBC reports. Funniest one was when a so-called 'injured' Palestinian man got up after being hustled off camera by a few of his friends after an Israeli raid. He thought the camera was still off and walked back to the scene ten seconds later, totally unharmed. Call me biased if you like but Israel has the right to defend itself, and that was what this air strike was all about.

Is it the best way? No, most certainly it isn't. But the alternatives--land for peace or a two-part divided state--have proven to be unworkable so far. The leaders of Hamas and Fatah, even if they don't particularly like each other, want only one thing: eradication of Israel. This is not in question. Sure, they say they want peace but that's just a smokescreen and everyone knows it.

As for the Israelis, no, they're not angels, either. But to stand by and do nothing invites more violence against them. They did what they felt they had to do with the strike.
 

raburrell

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-----

No, I didn't duck it. I didn't respond at the time as I was searching on Mr. Google. Yes, correct, the last documented suicide bombing in Israel, according to reports, was in 2008.
Sulong asked you a question, you didn't answer it and posed an unrelated one - that's pretty much ducking.
Now, since sulong decided to duck my question about the tunnels (which, yes, are used to transport mainly weapons but also food, personnel, illegal immigrants, etc.)and you opted to answer for her, you also forgot to mention the stockpiled weaponry in the Gaza strip.
Er, no I didn't. I said the tunnels were used to ferry weapons. (And given that the last book I wrote directly involved said tunnels, this is something I have looked into. Extensively.
Mentioning that Israel knows where the tunnels are (or they have a pretty good idea most of the time) really doesn't add to the conversation.
Sulong didn't deny they existed. I mentioned Israel's awareness of them because they spend a great deal of strategic energy figure out which ones to leave open and which ones to collapse. And then the Palestinians dig new ones. Good times.
(btw, it does add to the discussion IMO, because it figures greatly into how much aid they have to provide.)
BTW, I'm not angry with you or sulong. It just pisses me off when I see this BS, one-sided reporting on the plight of the Palestinians and the so-called 'evil' Israelis.
Point out to me where I did that. Go ahead, I'll wait.

The leaders of Hamas and Fatah, even if they don't particularly like each other, want only one thing: eradication of Israel. This is not in question. Sure, they say they want peace but that's just a smokescreen and everyone knows it.
Positions have hardened on both sides. Netanyahu has done everything possible to make a two-state solution impossible. This is not to say he had a partner for peace, because short of the Palestinian guy who's responsible for all the foreign development in the West Bank (whose name is escaping me at the moment), he doesn't. What he wants, to borrow Romney's phrasing, is for all Palestinians to self-deport to Jordan (etc).

As for the Israelis, no, they're not angels, either. But to stand by and do nothing invites more violence against them. They did what they felt they had to do with the strike.

IMO, no state should be required to suffer rocket attacks on its territory. But that goes for the Palestinians too. There are elements of collective punishment going on here that I truly despise. Either way, it's a shitty situation and likely to get shittier.
 

benbradley

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I got some comments I could make, but not only is the situation quite complicated, the "conversation" here has become about as mean spirited as the fighting.

I hope it's not too offensive to one side or the other if I stay out of it and eat my popcorn.
 

J.S.F.

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Sulong asked you a question, you didn't answer it and posed an unrelated one - that's pretty much ducking.

Er, no I didn't. I said the tunnels were used to ferry weapons. (And given that the last book I wrote directly involved said tunnels, this is something I have looked into. Extensively.

Sulong didn't deny they existed. I mentioned Israel's awareness of them because they spend a great deal of strategic energy figure out which ones to leave open and which ones to collapse. And then the Palestinians dig new ones. Good times.
(btw, it does add to the discussion IMO, because it figures greatly into how much aid they have to provide.)

Point out to me where I did that. Go ahead, I'll wait.


Positions have hardened on both sides. Netanyahu has done everything possible to make a two-state solution impossible. This is not to say he had a partner for peace, because short of the Palestinian guy who's responsible for all the foreign development in the West Bank (whose name is escaping me at the moment), he doesn't. What he wants, to borrow Romney's phrasing, is for all Palestinians to self-deport to Jordan (etc).



IMO, no state should be required to suffer rocket attacks on its territory. But that goes for the Palestinians too. There are elements of collective punishment going on here that I truly despise. Either way, it's a shitty situation and likely to get shittier.
-----

Perhaps I should clarify the statement of 'BS and biased reporting'. At no time did I indicate you or sulong said anything of that nature. It was a general statement and I don't know why you would have taken it personally. Sorry for the confusion.

Ben, enjoy your popcorn.

As for this thread, I'm out. I've been reading the papers and Internet reports from a number of sources and the reporting is, IMO, disgustingly one-sided. I'll just keep my opinions to myself about this matter from now on.
 

rugcat

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Israel, esp under Netanyahu, has treated the Palestinians terribly. They have achieved the almost impossible -- make a terrible situation even worse.

But the idea that there are two equal sides to the problem, indistinguishable on moral grounds, is just not warranted.

If the situation was reversed and it was the the Palestinians who had the military power of Israel, they wouldn't treat the Israelis badly -- because there wouldn't be any Israelis, or any Israel. They would, as they have so often promised, drive them into the sea.

There's a difference between treating people badly and murdering people.

Israel has gone to great lengths to kill leaders of Hamas and others they deem terrorists. If civilian life is lost because of it, they consider it unfortunate, but necessary. One may deplore such an attitude (as well as deploring combatants who embed in the civilian population to discourage retaliation) but it's a far different thing than deliberate terrorism.

Terrorism is when a group deliberately targets a school, a cafe where young people congregate, a bus talking ordinary citizens to work.

With the goal of deliberately killing as many civilians as possible -- preferably the most vulnerable, like children.

Hamas does exactly that. The Israelis do not.

Israel in recent years has disappointed me terribly -- I expected far better from them. But Hamas is in an entirely different class -- murderers, thugs, and willing to do absolutely anything to gain their objectives -- which include the destruction of the State of Israel.
 

muravyets

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Unsurprisingly, I agree with rugcat. However, it becomes more difficult every year to sympathize with Israel. What is it going to take to crowbar bastards like Netanyahu out of their leadership?

Actually, there are bastards like that in a lot of governments. They are a problem.
 

Zoombie

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And that's why I tend to lean towards defanging governments because assholes like that just love to get into governments and they KEEP MANAGING TO DO IT!

But yeah, Hamas are huge dicks, but Israel isn't exactly whatever the opposite of being a dick is. Finding a way out of the situation is going to require a lot of hard work from both sides...
 

Ken

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. No, that's not the only alternative.

Explain the logic underlying that conclusion, please.

. . . sure. Another alternative would be a ground offensive or invasion, which probably would result in war and the death of tens of thousands. So indirect attacks with missiles and drones are preferred. That’s how we took out Bin Laden and numerous other AQ leaders and operatives in Afghanistan and Pakistan. And yes. The world as a whole is safer as a result of their removal.

Who knows how many more 9-11’s would have been attempted, otherwise. Same with all other leaders of terrorist organizations who’ve shown a basic disregard for human life, including for their own people. Today they’re attacking a country 1000’s of miles away. Tomorrow it’ll be ours. That’s why we’ve all got to all stand united.
 

sulong

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Lhipenwhe

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Yeah, those preparations are disturbing. Considering the not so long ago Arab spring, I see an uncomfortable potential for escalation into other countries.

Hoping cooler heads prevail.

Which countries will those be? Egyptians won't be dying for Palestinians, Jordan has its own problems, Lebanon despises the Palestinians, and Syria is too busy killing their own people (something Arab dictatorships are depressingly good at). Only real outsider involved is Iran, and its presence was never uncertain.

The Arab Spring/Earthquake/whatever has made the region more unstable as a whole. Israel is worried about that - in a world where its neighbors can't offer guarantees, it feels the need to establish its own. I can't say I blame them; with neighbors like the above, I'd be nervous too.
 

sulong

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Which countries will those be? Egyptians won't be dying for Palestinians, Jordan has its own problems, Lebanon despises the Palestinians, and Syria is too busy killing their own people (something Arab dictatorships are depressingly good at). Only real outsider involved is Iran, and its presence was never uncertain.

The Arab Spring/Earthquake/whatever has made the region more unstable as a whole. Israel is worried about that - in a world where its neighbors can't offer guarantees, it feels the need to establish its own. I can't say I blame them; with neighbors like the above, I'd be nervous too.

I hope you're right and only Palestinians are doing the dieing. An escalation would be disadvantageous to peace.
 

firedrake

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The Arab Spring/Earthquake/whatever has made the region more unstable as a whole. Israel is worried about that - in a world where its neighbors can't offer guarantees, it feels the need to establish its own. I can't say I blame them; with neighbors like the above, I'd be nervous too.

Yes, and Israel parking tanks at the border will really help calm the situation.
 

Gil Paul

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First, in regards to the horror of war, Hamas installs themselves and their weapons amongst civilian populations to intentionally force collateral damage. Terrible but true. Israel does everything it can to minimize civilian casualties but no country can ignore repeated attacks.


It is important to remember that prior to this latest round of attacks, Hamas and associated terrorist groups such as Islamic Jihad launched 800 rockets at Israel – and that is just this year! There have been 8,000 rockets launched at Israel since Israel pulled out of Gaza in 2005!


Israel has shown more restrain than any country could be expected to. That said, civilian casualties cannot be avoided. In fact, Israel's track record is better than the USA's.


According to a recent report issued by Stanford and NYU, "June 2004 through mid-September 2012, available data indicate that drone strikes killed 2,562 - 3,325 people in Pakistan, of whom 474 - 881 were civilians, including 176 children. " This is only drone attacks in Pakistan!


A reality check: Hamas is the sworn enemy of Israel and has pledged, as one of its core principles, the destruction of Israel. For negotiations of any solution to have merit, lets start with a recognition of Israel's right to exist. Lets also consider the immediate upside to the people of Gaza and the West Bank if they were ready to accept Israel's right to exist.


The Human Development Index, a composite statistic that considers life expectancy, education, and income, puts Gaza and the West Bank ahead of Egypt! In fact, out of 178 countries listed, Gaza is 101, only two spots below Iran and in better position than India and most of Africa! But with peace and the free flow of trade, the economies of Gaza and the West Bank would explode – at last a positive explosion. We could easily see Gaza become a true jewel by the Mediterranean Sea, with tourism bringing in hundreds of millions of dollars. Instead, we have radicalism voted into power in Gaza and a corrupt government in the West Bank. The people of Gaza and the West Bank need to recognize their real enemy and pursue their own Arab Spring. They should overthrow Hamas and embrace Israel in peace. The streets of Gaza would flow with milk and honey instead of blood if only they chose the path of peace.

Thanks for taking the time to read this.

Gil
 

firedrake

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Well, let's hope that Israel shows some 'restraint' now that they've achieved this objective eh?

Let's hope they show 'restraint' by resisting the urge to mount a full-on invasion.
 

Gil Paul

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Let's hope they show 'restraint' by resisting the urge to mount a full-on invasion.

Israel has been and continues to show incredible restraint.

If Israel's reaction to attacks against its people were in line with other nations in similar circumstances, Gaza would be nothing more than a smoking crater.

If by "restraint," you mean a cessation of military operations by the IDF, this is very doubtful if the terrorists continue to target Israel's civilian population.

thanks,

Gil
 

firedrake

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Israel has the benefit of a missile defence system, which fortunately, has worked for them. 3 Israelis dead to 40 Palestinians.

I guess I can't get over meeting an elderly Palestinian whose family was turfed off the land they'd farmed for generations. I'm not seeing Israeli 'restraint' when entire villages are cleared out so that new 'settlements' can be built.

*shrugs*
 

sulong

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Israel has the benefit of a missile defence system, which fortunately, has worked for them. 3 Israelis dead to 40 Palestinians.
It would seem that one of those numbers is a tragedy, the other is a statistic.
 

Gil Paul

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I guess I can't get over meeting an elderly Palestinian whose family was turfed off the land they'd farmed for generations.
Our hearts should go out to all people that have lost their homes in conflict but that does not mean we ignore the reality.


The Palestinian people have been used and abused as pawns - not by Israel but by the rest of the Arab world. Egypt has demolished Palestinian villages that encroached upon its boarder. Hamas has destroyed Palestinian homes for their own economic and political advantage.

The people of Israel take no joy in making people homeless. In fact, Israel’s own courts and numerous civil rights leaders have fought against the practice of home demolition. But it is difficult to take a moral high ground when your woman and children are targeted by terrorists.

For example, Saleh Abdel Rahim al-Souwi , the perpetrator of the Tel Aviv bus 5 massacre, had his home and others bull dozed as retribution. Yahya Ayyash - he was the chief bomb maker for Hamas and a mass murderer also had his home destroyed after countless acts of terror.


If Hamas was really interested in peace, they could prove it with a few simple words: We accept Israel’s right to exist.


The sooner the world accepts that Israel has the right and moral obligation to defend itself, the sooner we can move a real peace process forward.

Regards,

Gil
 

Williebee

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The people of Israel take no joy in making people homeless.

The sooner the world accepts that Israel has the right and moral obligation to defend itself, the sooner we can move a real peace process forward.

Gil, this would not be the place to speak in large generalities. Most of the folks who haunt P&CE know there are a very limited number of universal truths, and even fewer that apply to human beings. (And you'd be hard pressed to find agreement on what those few are. :) )

I suspect, for example, that the vast majority of "the world" could care less about Israel or Palestine, save how it might come to impact their personal safety or well being. In fact, there's a reasonable chance that there are some in "the world" who don't know that either nation exists at all.
Or that we do, for that matter.
 

kaitie

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I would believe that Israel had a right to defend itself more easily if they weren't constantly doing things like going into land that isn't rightfully theirs, forcing people from their homes, and acting against peace agreements to do whatever the hell they want under the guise of "remember, we were murdered and oppressed!"

In my book having been a victim in the past isn't an excuse to be a bully now.
 

Gil Paul

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Good point. Why generalize? Replace "The sooner the world ..." with, "the sooner the Arab World, European Leadership, the leadership of Africa and Asia, and most if not all of the leadership of South America..."

Did I miss anyone? Hmmm... maybe it would just be easier to say "the World," after all?

In any case, I certainly do not mean to offend anyone's sensibilities.

This section of the forum, as I understand it, is specifically set aside for politics. Sometimes, to make a point, express an idea or share opinions - especially as they may relate to widespread geopolitical issues; generalization can be a useful tool. That is just my opinion of course but if you read the headlines of any major news paper on any given day, they seem to be chock full of generalizations. Of course, that is a generalization. :)


Best regards,

Gil