Hush Hush & bad boys/rape culture (potentially triggering) (split from YA books to film)

mellymel

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Okay, whew! So, it looks like at this point that Hu$h Hu$h is not happening. At this time.

http://www.beccafitzpatrick.com/#!hushhushmovie/c653

I will say I'm a bit relieved. I wonder what BF's real reasons are. I would love to think that she's had second thoughts about how she portrayed this character (I'm guessing she wrote this book a while back and has had time to reevaluate the messages that has been given/received re: the LI and his behavior toward the MC), but she only says she has decided to not renew her contract with LD. It's good enough for me!

ETA: I hate HATE ragging on an author and feel terrible when I feel a need to chew up and spit out their work. I hope to read something in the future from this author that will renew my faith in her and her work. I believe in giving authors second chances. :)

ETAA: It would seem the info is contradicting, but her website post seems to have the most recently dated information from everything else out there.
 
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what?

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When I was 15...
Fiction is not reality. No one dies in a book. It is just words on paper.

A rape fantasy is not a rape. I can enjoy fantasizing about being raped, because I have control over my fantasies and can play it out any way I want. In my fantasy, I am raped by someone I want to be raped by. It does not mean that I enjoy similar experiences in real life. But there is an aspect to it that is in tune with some desire I have, and that rape fantasy takes that desire to the extreme.

Of course some of us are sensitive to certain topics. I, for example, cannot read about child abuse. It makes me want to take the air plane and kill that author. But I don't, because I realize that it is just words on paper and that those that enjoy that kind of story won't necessarily abuse their children. I just put away that book and read something else. Maybe about rape ;-)
 

Stiger05

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But it's not just words on paper. Words have power. I dare say words have the most power. Words have raised and destroyed entire civilizations, started wars, almost eliminated whole sets of people. Words are more powerful than physical strength. Anyone who reads or writes should understand the power of words.

Especially to teenagers whose brains are still forming and who are still figuring out themselves and what they want in the world. In the same way the perpetuation of the idea of a "soul mate" sets up false standards for what love and marriage are and should be, a perpetuation of this stalker/abusive/obsessed boyfriend as a hot, ideal bad boy is shaping young girls ideas of what a relationship should be. In a negative way.

I should know. I read plenty of bad boys in my formative years and it shaped this ideal of what I call a truffle guy. Hard exterior but gooey interior who, if handled right, will melt all over you. That was the sort of guys I went for, and it was that sort of guy who raped me when I was 18, and who physically and emotionally abused me for three years before I realized that these "bad boys" aren't fictional characters with soft insides. They're bad guys. And I didn't actually want a bad boy in real life. Don't miss the part where it took actual, physical real life abuse when I was 18-21 to destroy the fictional ideal.

It's all well and great that you can distance yourself from what you read, but not everyone can. Especially at a young age. It's important to realize the power of words and the power, and responsibility, a writer has to shape their reader.

:Soapbox: Soapbox over.
 
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mellymel

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Stiger has said it well enough for me at this point as I'm still so upset after reading what?'s response and can't form my own thoughts and words to respond right now.

Also, still trying to figure out why you only chose to quote,
When I was 15...

When i was 15, I was confused. I'd grown up with an alcoholic mother who was in and out of my life. I had been molested by an 18 year old boy when I was 7. When I was 14, I messed around with a guy who was 23 and tried to take sexual advantage of me as well as a 39 year old male who did take advantage of me who was an instructor I was supposed to trust. And for some odd reason WEHN I WAS 15, I was attracted to this bad-ass 18 year old who I thought was hawt because he showed me how much he cared about me by making a scene and starting fights with other guys simply because they looked at me. He gave me access to drugs and allowed me to live this crazy drama-filled life where I burned a freaking cigarette butt into my wrist after we'd had a fight because I'D SHOW HIM DAMN IT!

Seriously, I am NOT my 15 year old self anymore. (THANK GOD.) And the day my oh so hawt boyfriend physically slammed me against the wall by my throat because a male friend of mine (whom I knew before I'd ever met said boyfriend) dropped me off at his house, was the day my "fantasy" world became VERY. REAL. And scary. I had a flash of my future with him and it terrified me. Sadly, though, some impressionable minds (which the teen mind very much is), would still see that as a sign of love. They see jealousy as a sign of love. He's only reacting this way because he really loves me. They feel lonely and worthless and have no self-esteem so they stay in these abusive relationships.

I'm not taking an airplane to "kill that author" either. But I do think that it is dangerous to glorify that type of character and leave teens all swooning and wishing they had a guy like so and so, especially when they are everything the character in HH is. It leaves them looking for those bad-ass "characters" so they can live out this false fantasy of what love is and what it means to be loved. Remember these are teens who are mostly reading these books. We're talking 12+ year olds reading this and honestly thinking this guys is awesome. Yes, they are living their fantasy, but at this age, they often don't know how to separate fantasy from reality. And having "just words on paper" is just another way to validate their already confused and developing minds. The teen brain is very different from the adult brain. Here is just one short clip (from the Discovery Channel) on the validity of this:

http://www.discovery.com/tv-shows/discovery-presents/videos/understanding-the-brain-teenagers.htm

ETA: Disclaimer: this is not to say that EVERY teen brain works this way or that every teen is in danger of living life on the edge or making bad judgments about what constitutes a healthy and not healthy relationship.
 
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Niiicola

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Those are really intense stories, mellymel and Stiger, and I appreciate you sharing them. I've always been kind of on the fence about these kinds of characters, but you make compelling cases for why they're a really bad idea.

On the plus side, with the decline of paranormal romance, I feel like these rape-ish characters are pretty much gone from YA these days. Seems like there are a lot more sensitive LIs and empowered girls. And there did seem to be a lot of backlash against Fitzpatrick. So hopefully the tide has turned.
 
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Cyia

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There's also a problem with proliferation.

You can say XX doesn't bother me because it's fiction and and a fantasy, etc. But, the numbers don't bear out.

When you've got the majority of popular books selling a certain kind of relationship dynamic (because when 1 sells big, publishers want ALL of their books to be like that 1), then it's now the norm. It's expected. When another book deviates from that, it's seen as unusual and alien.

And when that "norm" is an unhealthy or abusive relationship, then a reader's perceptions get skewed.

It's not likely that a 14-16 year old kid has "a lot" of relationship experience. They fill-in their perceptions on their life, their friends, and what they read or watch. Given a wide enough pool of information, they then develop expectations for normalcy. If every TV show and every movie shows the females (or feminine males) as the damsel in distress, then they start to think of that as society's norm. There's nothing to challenge it.

Likewise, if every "hit" novel comes with a bad boy that's just waiting to be saved by the heroine (not "heroin," Edward Cullen; that's its own brand of weirdness, tyvm), those same girls begin to look for the broken boy they can put back together. When real life doesn't play out like the fictional one, they don't have any other experience to draw from.

On the plus side, with the decline of paranormal romance, I feel like these rape-ish characters are pretty much gone from YA these days.

Oh no, they're still there, even with contemporary. (Beautiful Disaster, anyone?)
 

jtrylch13

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I agree with Cya, Melly and Stiger, for what it's worth. I read a lot of smutty romance novels as a kid and had a very wrong idea about relationships. What you read can help to form your view and thoughts of the world. Thankfully, I didn't have quite the bad experiences as some of you, but it sure didn't help me in my selection of boyfriend or the healthiness of relationships.

I could only get through one and a half Hush, Hush books. While the sexual tension was alluring for awhile, it became so wrong I just couldn't stomach it. And can we point out the fact that the angel, and let's not forget our teenage vampire that sparkles, are old. Patch was probably thousands of years old and Edward like 180 or something. That's just friggin creepy.

So yes, we writers have a responsibility. It doesn't mean everything has to be sugar coated and candy pink, but we probably shouldn't portray a bad situation as actually good.
 

Sage

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I actually enjoyed reading HH, and I don't think teen me would have gotten the "rape culture is okay" message from it, but at the same time I had a lot of problems with the book from a cultural perspective. It wasn't actually Patch who was the problem for me. It was *everyone* else, from Nora's inability to decide whether she thinks he's dangerous or safe (literally, she'd go from a paragraph of thinking he could use a knife on her to making out with him); to her teacher telling her to spend more time with Patch when she complains about sexual harassment; to her friend telling her that another guy scaring her was okay because he was drunk...and so on.
 

mellymel

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I actually enjoyed reading HH, and I don't think teen me would have gotten the "rape culture is okay" message from it, but at the same time I had a lot of problems with the book from a cultural perspective. It wasn't actually Patch who was the problem for me. It was *everyone* else, from Nora's inability to decide whether she thinks he's dangerous or safe (literally, she'd go from a paragraph of thinking he could use a knife on her to making out with him); to her teacher telling her to spend more time with Patch when she complains about sexual harassment; to her friend telling her that another guy scaring her was okay because he was drunk...and so on.

I think that's the problem, most teens probably do NOT get the message that is there in a direct way and it's because of the very excellent point you've made in your post. The fact is P is a douche of the worst kind. I think most people can see that he was not a very nice guy/angel. And I can almost guarantee you that when I was a teen, I probably would have seen P as the perfect, dreamy, boyfriend material (see my guy bio above). But as you so wisely point out, it's really about the way BF chose to have all the other characters react around and to him. The choices that were made throughout this book were unbelievable at times, unrealistic at other times, and plain freaking stupid almost all the time. It's like she took Bella's character and made her a bazillion times stupider and more reckless. The choices N made all the time (Ohmigawd he's so dangerous but he's so hawt, I want to make out with him) is what caused me to throw my book across the room (I literally did this!). But there is a message that is there, whether you get it consciously or subconsciously, that it's okay to be treated like $hit and threatened, especially if the guy is hawt. It is never okay under any circumstances to allow ANYONE to treat ANYONE like $hit. And anyone who thinks it is...Well, my heart sinks for them and I just hope that through maturity they come to this realization and engage themselves in healthier relationships.

The thing that scares me is that because of N's actions/reactions/behaviors etc (as well as the other characters in the book), many MANY teens accepted her behavior and choices and LOVE LOVE LOVE P and think he's hot and amazing and OHMIGAWD he loves N so much when the fact is, what he displayed is in no way love. Add the fact that he's an all powerful angel, and girls are all, The world is spinning, let me off, in love with this sick character.
 
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Chazemataz

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Of course, the truth of the matter is that people associate angst and danger with sexiness and desire. Just look at how many people out there think Christine should've picked Erik over Raol, despite Raol being a nice guy and Erik being a psychopathic killer and a kidnapper. I would agree that writers should be careful about the messages they send to an impressionable teenage audience, but this is more of a human nature "issue" than anything else. I see it all the time in real life; many of my girlfriends literally do make the exact same choice of the bad, sexy guy who is good only to her over the nice, dependable one. Of course, they usually learn the hard way that these guys do not usually make the best long-term partners when they end up either a.) unemployed and broke, or b.) in jail.

Note that I made no mention of abusive partners, or rape. Those are obviously separate cases altogether. Patch is creepy, and so is Edward, and so on- but they're archetypes that exist because some (some! not all!) people find that attractive.
 
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Channy

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It seems to be a summary of the whole danger = exciting aspect. These guys ooze, not only sex appeal, but danger and passion.. the jealousy and the possessiveness is all misconstrued as being head over heels in love, when he may have trust issues, and if he has trust issues, that is then misconstrued as being a hopeless romantic who's been hurt in the past... A dangerous relationship is exciting because it's got risks.. maybe something will happen to the badboy, or to her and it wrecks up the badboy, thus elevating his romance appeal... if the girl ends up with the good guy who's sweet on her, what excitement is there in that? (Granted these are the guys that make the relationships irl and young girls are forgetting it) Sometimes the sweet guys just don't sell the fiction which is a shame because then they're subsequently getting left behind irl with that question looming over their heads "Why does she always go after those douchey guys?" (I mean, how many of our guy friends have asked us this?)
 

Ellaroni

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Fiction is not reality. No one dies in a book. It is just words on paper.

Words are powerful tools, what?. Very powerful, whether in a work of fiction or not.
 

J.S.Fairey

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Fiction is not reality. No one dies in a book. It is just words on paper.

A rape fantasy is not a rape. I can enjoy fantasizing about being raped, because I have control over my fantasies and can play it out any way I want. In my fantasy, I am raped by someone I want to be raped by. It does not mean that I enjoy similar experiences in real life. But there is an aspect to it that is in tune with some desire I have, and that rape fantasy takes that desire to the extreme.

Of course some of us are sensitive to certain topics. I, for example, cannot read about child abuse. It makes me want to take the air plane and kill that author. But I don't, because I realize that it is just words on paper and that those that enjoy that kind of story won't necessarily abuse their children. I just put away that book and read something else. Maybe about rape ;-)

This makes me irrationally angry. So I'm going to breathe, and try and formulate my words carefully:

Firstly, in my opinion if you don't realise that words have power then what are you doing writing? The whole point of stories and words is the power they hold over us, emotionally and psychologically, and how they influence us, shape us. If you don't realise that...

Secondly, you're not fantasising about rape if you "want" to be raped. You're fantasising about consensual sex with a rough element on the side, something that is neither illegal nor (if carried out safely) damaging in any way.

I've never experienced anything like the people on this thread, and I thank my lucky stars for that. My guess, what?, is that you haven't either (If you have, many apologies). Therefore, I think it's better if we err on the side of caution when we decide whether or not to say something that might be unbelievably insensitive to others, since neither of us can know what such a terrible experience was like, and how our words (see that! I brought it round to words having power again! That's authoring right there, having a running theme) might affect them.

Sorry. Bit of a rant. Apologies.
 

Windcutter

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A dangerous relationship is exciting because it's got risks.. maybe something will happen to the badboy, or to her and it wrecks up the badboy, thus elevating his romance appeal... if the girl ends up with the good guy who's sweet on her, what excitement is there in that? (Granted these are the guys that make the relationships irl and young girls are forgetting it) Sometimes the sweet guys just don't sell the fiction which is a shame because then they're subsequently getting left behind irl with that question looming over their heads "Why does she always go after those douchey guys?" (I mean, how many of our guy friends have asked us this?)
I think part of it is plain and simple: sex.
The old notion that sex = bad is still here. Notice how the words for great sex go: dirty, wicked.
Sex with a good boy = boring, not passionate enough, wild enough, hot enough. Calm, solid, normal, white picket fenc-ish.
It's the same old Madonna/Whore thing only it's gender-reversed. So the girl either ends up with a noobified bad boy (ex-Whore turned Madonna) or has a fling with a gorgeous villain but ends up with a good boy by the end of the series. Same way in dime novels main male character got tangled up with a beautiful and wicked girl but ended up married to a nice one who was not threatening.

And frankly a lot of YA authors fail at making an exciting good guy character. Usually they are plain as unflavored oatmeal. Even though, look at pop culture? Indiana Jones was never a bad boy, yet he's exciting as heck. Just for example.
 

Chazemataz

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I think part of it is plain and simple: sex.
The old notion that sex = bad is still here. Notice how the words for great sex go: dirty, wicked.
Sex with a good boy = boring, not passionate enough, wild enough, hot enough. Calm, solid, normal, white picket fenc-ish.
It's the same old Madonna/Whore thing only it's gender-reversed. So the girl either ends up with a noobified bad boy (ex-Whore turned Madonna) or has a fling with a gorgeous villain but ends up with a good boy by the end of the series. Same way in dime novels main male character got tangled up with a beautiful and wicked girl but ended up married to a nice one who was not threatening.

And frankly a lot of YA authors fail at making an exciting good guy character. Usually they are plain as unflavored oatmeal. Even though, look at pop culture? Indiana Jones was never a bad boy, yet he's exciting as heck. Just for example.

Hmm... this is the truth. I'm now trying to think of good guy characters from pop culture whom girls/gay guys on a whole find attractive, too. The only ones I can think of right now are the Winchester brothers (though I guess that point could be argued as the show goes on), Doctor Who, Gus from TFIOS, Akiva from DOSAB, Harry Potter... that's about it.

Now, bad, dangerous boys? There's almost too many to count. Let's see: Jace, Will, Edward, Patch, Spike, Hades (in literally all novels he is in), Damon Salvatore, Eric Northman, the-angel-guy-from-Fallen... lots more.

It'd make an interesting scholarly article, I think. Maybe I'm just a big ol' nerd.
 

Niiicola

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Sex with a good boy = boring, not passionate enough, wild enough, hot enough. Calm, solid, normal, white picket fenc-ish.
I agree that this is often the case, but usually what makes this sex/relationship boring is a lack of conflict. Writing interesting sexytimes with nice boys can definitely be done, but I feel like a lot of times it's easier to make it more exciting with a bad boy because there's conflict galore.

That said, I do think there's sort of ingrained bad-boy trope-y attraction thing a lot of female readers (myself included) have. For example, I love when there's romantic tension with the villain, and the more over the top it is (ahem, Klaus, ahem, Darkling), the more I like it for some reason. Especially when the villain has this super dastardly plan and they're completely unraveled by their all-consuming need for the MC (oh man am I oversharing now).* As mentioned above, I'm not convinced it has to be this way, but it's often effective.


*Note: I blame watching Labyrinth at a very impressionable young age for all of this. So maybe I'm proving everybody's point here.
 
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what?

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I have been abused as a child, which is why, as I said, I can't read books about child abuse. My own experiences have made me sensitive.

But I don't rationally judge a book based on my sensitivity. I realize that the same story might mean other things to other people with other experiences, and that their interest in reading or writing a book about child abuse is just as valid as my reason for not reading it.

What you are all doing is saying that everyone must feel about this book like you do. You deny people the right to perceive those words differently than you do.

And yes, words have power. But only if you allow them power over you. When someone calls me names I have the choice to simply laugh at that person, or to allow those words to hurt me. I don't have the same choice with a phyisical blow. It always hits me. But I don't have to let the words hit me, I can think: That person has a problem and is trying to transfer his negative emotion to me. But I feel fine, and I know that I am not what that person is calling me. Only if you are insecure will you allow others to hurt you with words. If you are secure in your self-worth, then words are just that: words.

Let me give you a real life example: I am a parent of a small child. Sometimes that child is very angry at me for denying him something, and he tells me that he does not love me anymore. And it is even true. At that moment, my son does not love me any more, but rather detests me. Yet, should I let his words break my heart? No. For one, I know that his feelings about me will change again. And for another, I am not his friend. I don't depend on him loving me. I am his parent, and it is my job to help him grow into a happy adult. And if that means that he does not love me as much as his friends or other people, who allow him every whim and vice, than that is how it must be. Because I don't have a child to be loved by him, but to love him and help him grow. Only an insecure parent would allow their children's anger to hurt them.

My perspective on the words of other people is the same: I don't live to be loved by everyone. I live to be myself. And if that entails being called names, then so be it. It runs off my skin like water. Because I love myself.

So if someone writes an erotic fantasy about rape (or whatever it is that you are sensitive about), you have the choice to say: that person likes spinach, but I don't, and that is well. As long as the authors and their readers don't go out and rape people, they can love stories about rape as much as they like.

It is the difference between a pedophile and a child molester. The pedophile desires something, the child molester acts it out. I can respect the first, but not the second.

And that's all I'm gonna say on the matter. If you feel you need to read yourself into every book ever written, then that's your choice, and you are free to make it. I'd rather not get upset about words, I preserve my anger for the deeds of people.
 

J.S.Fairey

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And that's all I'm gonna say on the matter. If you feel you need to read yourself into every book ever written, then that's your choice, and you are free to make it. I'd rather not get upset about words, I preserve my anger for the deeds of people.

But it's not about how YOU interpret words. It's about how OTHERS might do so! For the record, I don't insert myself into every book, but I understand others might do, and therefore I take extra care to be extra careful about what I say and write.

As for the bad boy thing... as has been said before it's an extremely unhealthy trend. Certainly, there are people who put on a tough exterior and are actually sweet as kittens underneath, and certainly we should write and read about them. But the fact that (especially in YA, which is by its very nature an extremely influential and formative genre) genuinely abusive relationships are being portrayed as attractive or even desirable... it makes me very nervous about the impact it might have on a young men and women.
 

Niiicola

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So if someone writes an erotic fantasy about rape (or whatever it is that you are sensitive about),
OK but this is a discussion about YA and surely we can agree that there's not really a place in YA for erotic rape fantasies, right?

But I don't rationally judge a book based on my sensitivity. I realize that the same story might mean other things to other people with other experiences, and that their interest in reading or writing a book about child abuse is just as valid as my reason for not reading it.

What you are all doing is saying that everyone must feel about this book like you do. You deny people the right to perceive those words differently than you do.
This I agree with. And I feel like this particular discussion gets recycled a lot on this board (also we're probably drifting off topic here).
 

The_Ink_Goddess

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I agree that this is often the case, but usually what makes this sex/relationship boring is a lack of conflict. Writing interesting sexytimes with nice boys can definitely be done, but I feel like a lot of times it's easier to make it more exciting with a bad boy because there's conflict galore.

That said, I do think there's sort of ingrained bad-boy trope-y attraction thing a lot of female readers (myself included) have. For example, I love when there's romantic tension with the villain, and the more over the top it is (ahem, Klaus, ahem, Darkling), the more I like it for some reason. Especially when the villain has this super dastardly plan and they're completely unraveled by their all-consuming need for the MC (oh man am I oversharing now).* As mentioned above, I'm not convinced it has to be this way, but it's often effective.


*Note: I blame watching Labyrinth at a very impressionable young age for all of this. So maybe I'm proving everybody's point here.

Ye gods, me too...I don't want to continue to take us off topic, even though I generally try to do the "YAs are not all impressionable candy-muffins waiting to be corrupted!!!" I can definitely see media which has impacted on my unhealthier habits...my crit partner and I have had many discussions about how I can keep my male main characters interesting without them devolving into Dark and Brooding villain types.
 

mellymel

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I have been abused as a child, which is why, as I said, I can't read books about child abuse. My own experiences have made me sensitive.

But I don't rationally judge a book based on my sensitivity. I realize that the same story might mean other things to other people with other experiences, and that their interest in reading or writing a book about child abuse is just as valid as my reason for not reading it.

What you are all doing is saying that everyone must feel about this book like you do. You deny people the right to perceive those words differently than you do.

And yes, words have power. But only if you allow them power over you. When someone calls me names I have the choice to simply laugh at that person, or to allow those words to hurt me. I don't have the same choice with a phyisical blow. It always hits me. But I don't have to let the words hit me, I can think: That person has a problem and is trying to transfer his negative emotion to me. But I feel fine, and I know that I am not what that person is calling me. Only if you are insecure will you allow others to hurt you with words. If you are secure in your self-worth, then words are just that: words.

Let me give you a real life example: I am a parent of a small child. Sometimes that child is very angry at me for denying him something, and he tells me that he does not love me anymore. And it is even true. At that moment, my son does not love me any more, but rather detests me. Yet, should I let his words break my heart? No. For one, I know that his feelings about me will change again. And for another, I am not his friend. I don't depend on him loving me. I am his parent, and it is my job to help him grow into a happy adult. And if that means that he does not love me as much as his friends or other people, who allow him every whim and vice, than that is how it must be. Because I don't have a child to be loved by him, but to love him and help him grow. Only an insecure parent would allow their children's anger to hurt them.

My perspective on the words of other people is the same: I don't live to be loved by everyone. I live to be myself. And if that entails being called names, then so be it. It runs off my skin like water. Because I love myself.

So if someone writes an erotic fantasy about rape (or whatever it is that you are sensitive about), you have the choice to say: that person likes spinach, but I don't, and that is well. As long as the authors and their readers don't go out and rape people, they can love stories about rape as much as they like.

It is the difference between a pedophile and a child molester. The pedophile desires something, the child molester acts it out. I can respect the first, but not the second.

And that's all I'm gonna say on the matter. If you feel you need to read yourself into every book ever written, then that's your choice, and you are free to make it. I'd rather not get upset about words, I preserve my anger for the deeds of people.

Well, first and foremost, I would like to express how sorry I am that you were abused as a child. That truly breaks my heart. :( Like myself, it would seem that though the damage is there, you have been lucky enough to overcome that horrible experience/memory and lead a fairly normal life (this is just an assumption based off things you've said, so if I'm wrong, please forgive me).

I would also like to clarify that I am by no means IN ANY WAY, SHAPE, OR FORM trying to dissuade people from reading this book or any other book I might have strong opinions about. Funny enough, I read this book after reading a LOT of controversy on it. I had friends who LOVED this book and friends who vehemently hated it, and I read the varying opinions on GR. Now, the truth is, I LOVED the Twilight series. And still do. Do I think Edward was a bit creepy in his behavior at times? Yes. Did I see it right away when I first read it? Surprisingly, no. I got sucked into the trap of thinking Edward was the most perfect guy whose actions and demands on Bella were romantic in nature and love based. And I truly believe it had to do with my past and still being tempted to think that sort of behavior is romantic even though I KNOW it's not.

Anyway, I digress. My point was that even with all the controversy surrounding this book (HH), I really wanted to find out for myself whether or not I'd like the book because I do not believe in book burning or book bashing just for the sake of being controversial and jumping on the latest book bashing bandwagon. I like what I like and I don't give a rat's a$$ what others think. So, I went in with an open mind (and still having a lot of love for Twilight) and believing that I might actually really love this book, but, as you well know, I did not. It wasn't so much the fact that N thought P was so hawt, or that she was willing to overlook the fact he psychologically manipulated her, physically abused her, and threatened to kill her on a regular basis. What bothered me was that the author consistently had her characters make choices that were never really justified through dialogue, IM or narration. It just didn't make sense. It was like she made all these lame choice for her character for the sake of moving the plot along (which I'm still trying to figure out--maybe I should finish the book just to get a full picture of the story--though I'm not sure I can make it through).

You mention that you are able to let words and name calling slide off you. And that's great. As an adult, I'm able to do that as well. But as a teen, everything was so much more intense. Again, the developing brain of a teen is VERY different (studies show that the teen brain relies more on the amygdala for making emotionally based choices and the frontal cortex for academic ones where the adult brain relies much more heavily on the frontal cortex--the area of the brain that is responsible for the ability to plan and reason--for both emotional and academic choices/responses). Again, this is not to say that all teens make bad choices or go for the bad-ass hot boy all the time. But words can and do affect teens very deeply. Just look at all the teens who are committing suicide from bullying and cyber-stalking/bullying. Postings on Facebook and twitter and instagram and the bazillion other means of reaching people, all involve WORDS that do have an affect, especially on teens, whether it's direct or subconscious. I'm not talking about how your adult self relates to these things. I'm talking about how the developing teen mind relates to these things and perceives them and whether they have the ability to let these "just words" slide off them.

I am vehemently against book banning and would never ever tell anyone not to read any book. Everyone must form their own opinion. I was just expressing mine and my concerns for this book becoming a movie that will further glorify this type of a relationship as being okay and healthy in the mind of teens who are in the process of developing their own right from wrong and personal moral values, and in which media has a HUGE HUGE HUGE influence in this development

I am the mother of two young daughters. Will I let them read Twilight and HH if they want to when they are old enough? Absolutely. Will I have a discussion about their thoughts on them and other books they read when they're done? Most definitely. Will I hope and pray that my daughters have the self-esteem and security in who they are as strong independent young women to choose guys who will respect them and treat them with love, kindness, and dignity and be everything P and Edward and all these other bad boy characters are not? You bet your sweet a$$ I will (ETA: Sorry, this was not meant directly to you though I'll assume these words slid right off you ;)). And while I understand that we as parents can do everything "right" and still have kids who stray from a healthy decision making path, I will never EVER be okay with my girls settling for a guy who treats them like $hit, slams them against a wall, threatens them or does or says anything to put them down or lower their sense of self. Sadly, not all kids/teens (as you may well know) have parents who have the sense or caring/love to guide them toward making these decision, so they are stuck to fend for themselves and are made more vulnerable toward making their own skewed decisions on what constitutes love. And words, whether in the form of song lyrics, or a book, or a posting on the internet, or TV or movies or what have you, have a very, VERY strong influence on our youth in both negative and positive ways. They aren't IMO, "just words". They are the visible, and very often, invisible, shape/mind shifters of our young ones.

Whoa...I think I might have fallen off topic there. But, I will end things on my end at this time. I think. ;)
 
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jtrylch13

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I think everyone in this discussion has some valid points, and I think Melly did a great job in her last post of highlighting the essential argument. I don't think anyone is saying we should burn HH, or Twi, or any other book, but it is important to understand that words have power (that's already been established), but we can choose how we allow things to affect us (said by what?), but that teens to whom these books are aimed are not as able to differentiate good and bad influences as say an adult is. Authors do have a responsibility to think about what they put in books and how it will affect readers, but that's not to say they can't write what they want. Their responsibility isn't legal, just moral. Books can have all kinds of controversial material, but it's how the info is conveyed and presented. 13 Reasons Why doesn't glorify abuse, suicide, discrimination, bullying or anything else, yet it contains all of this and more.

what? - I know you felt attacked, and you kind of were, but it wasn't just people's personal experience with abuse that makes them sensitive. I've never been abused in anyway and I was slightly offended by your choice of statements. I completely understand what you are saying, "We choose to let words have power over us." And for all of us that's correct, but as Mel pointed out, teens are a different case and since we are writing for teens we need to keep that in mind. I don't think everyone was putting themselves in these books, but rather trying to project how such books could affect impressionable teens by using their own stories as examples. That's all.
 

mellymel

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My deepest and sincerest apology, What?, if my responding comments to yours felt like an attack. I certainly didn't mean for them to be, and I appreciate your thoughts on the matter as it's engaged us in a very interesting and important discussion. I guess it was just a matter of me reacting to your words :))!), which apparently, I was unable to let slide. ;) I didn't realize just how passionate this topic would make me and whether you agree with my comments/opinions/viewpoints or not it's all good. I respect that you have your opinion and I get the feels, through your non-confrontational posts, that you respect those of others. Sometimes these sensitive topics can get of out of control, but it would seem that people have chosen their words carefully so as not to offend, even if some words took on a life of their own through misconception and/or sensitivity.

:)
 
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