Suspended if he goes to prom?

Romantic Heretic said:

Why do I get the feeling that if the kid was attending a private school with an atheist philosophy telling the kid that if he went to church he would be suspended and expelled if he prayed the people saying that 'The school has that right,' in this case would be going 'How dare they!'?

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Interesting point. But this country was founded on religious freedom so it is anathema to the spirit of the Constitution. Hmmm.... Technically, I think an atheist school (with a contract, code of conduct, agreement signed by parents and students) would be within their rights, but I just don't see this happening.

To me, atheists are more like cats. They aren't pack animals. They aren't a concentrated group of people and as such there really is not 'atheist dogma' that is pushed by any one org. In a nutshell, atheists don't care enough to pull together to form an atheist school and then push an atheist agenda.

But I will concede that there is a double standard as you alluded to. I think the answer is obvious. This is a Christian country founded on religious freedom.

Kathleen42 said:

My understanding is that his girlfriend's school actually required a signed slip from the principal of students attending from other schools.

Am I the only one who wants a Footloose-style showdown?

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fairy86 said:

Kathleen42, honestly Footloose was the first thing on my mind when I read the article. . .

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Can't believe I didn't think of this. Especially since I saw footloose again a few months ago LOL.

Funny, you mean that in the real world problems can't be solved with a dance???

Mel...

Actually, at least to some degree, we can take religion out of this completely.

If Frost is involved with alcohol or sex at the prom, he will be expelled, England said.

Frost's stepfather Stephan Johnson said the school's rules should not apply outside the classroom.

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In the public school in our school system, underage drinking is a punishable offense, as it is illegal. That can include suspension and expulsion. He's 17. If he's involved with sex with a minor, same thing.

As to the music and dancing, if the parent's signed the school code agreements, then they have bound their son to them, just as any public school kid is bound by their parent or guardian signing any other school code of conduct -- for extracurricular activities or school internet usage.

Bottom line is they shouldn't have put the kid in school there if they didn't want to follow the school's rules.

Is it stupid? Don't know. (Although it is to me.) And it sucks for the kid, but we all sometimes pay/paid for the actions of our parents. (And we'll roll the same thing down on our kids in one form or another.)

fairy86 said:

Kathleen42, honestly Footloose was the first thing on my mind when I read the article. . .

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Yeah, I was totally thinking we need some Kevin Bacon in this situation.

I GET what the school wants. The boy was told what would happen if he went to prom, and he's still going. He'll still graduate, although not with his class. He knows the consequences and is willing to pay them. He's made a decision and is sticking to his guns. Good for him. It's not him but his parents that seem to be so upset about him not walking for grad. Both events are once-in-a-lifetime. He'll get a cap and gown and take some pictures in front of his house and remember how he graduated from H.S.

Personally I think the boy has more integrity than the principal. If it was going to be this big a deal, WHY did he sign the permission slip?

Christine N. said:

Yeah, I was totally thinking we need some Kevin Bacon in this situation.

I GET what the school wants. The boy was told what would happen if he went to prom, and he's still going. He'll still graduate, although not with his class. He knows the consequences and is willing to pay them. He's made a decision and is sticking to his guns. Good for him. It's not him but his parents that seem to be so upset about him not walking for grad. Both events are once-in-a-lifetime. He'll get a cap and gown and take some pictures in front of his house and remember how he graduated from H.S.

Personally I think the boy has more integrity than the principal. If it was going to be this big a deal, WHY did he sign the permission slip?

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You know, I feel like i'm in the Twilight Zone. I think we can't help but think about this from our point of view, I mean, come on, dance is harmless right?

But what about the Muslim world that views women should be covered from head to toe?

What about Jews and Muslims that feel that eating pork puts their mortal souls in danger and therefore it is forbidden?

What about Hindus that do not cut their hair and feel to do so is a mortal sin?

From the outside looking in, many religious beliefs look stupid, but that is not our call.

The principle is the principle of a religious school that has the belief that dance is evil. Therefore, it is actually the principle who has the moral highground here and should be applauded for sticking to his guns.

*cue Twilight Zone Music*

Mel...

We have private schools like that here in TN. No music, dancing, or pants on girls. Those are the rules. If you break them (even outside of school) you can be suspended or expelled. Parents and students are made aware of this before they start attending the school. It's their choice to go or not. We have have a few local law suits over this kind of thing and the schools won. Those are the rules no matter how strange others may think they are. Private schools can do things the way they want.

Let's just get something straight here-- the kid can still graduate once he finishes his exit exams. He'll be suspended, receive incomplete (and presumably have to come back and finish the classes after his suspension is over) and not be able to WALK at graduation. He can still graduate.

The teen, who is scheduled to receive his diploma May 24, would be suspended from classes and receive an "incomplete" on remaining assignments, England said. Frost also would not be permitted to attend graduation but would get a diploma once he completes final exams.

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They truly cannot stop him from graduating if he earns the credits. They can just make it finishing hard and inconvenient.

I think this is a bit strict, but it won't be the end of the world for a young couple to go to prom. (Bias alert: I think Prom is an overhyped waste of time and money that often leads to let-downs and regrets.) The kids and his parents had to have known the schools position on rock and roll and other such modern subversive activities. They chose this school anyway.

Though I do think it rather hypocritical for the school to tell the kids they have to get a permission slip-- sign the slip-- and then weigh some rather heavy consequences if they do decide to go. Just come right out and say that the school doesn't agree with prom and that all who attend it will be punished instead a futzing around pretending there's a chance of approval. That's just a cruel joke, I think.

dgiharris said:

You know, I feel like i'm in the Twilight Zone. I think we can't help but think about this from our point of view, I mean, come on, dance is harmless right?

But what about the Muslim world that views women should be covered from head to toe?

What about Jews and Muslims that feel that eating pork puts their mortal souls in danger and therefore it is forbidden?

What about Hindus that do not cut their hair and feel to do so is a mortal sin?

From the outside looking in, many religious beliefs look stupid, but that is not our call.

The principle is the principle of a religious school that has the belief that dance is evil. Therefore, it is actually the principle who has the moral highground here and should be applauded for sticking to his guns.

*cue Twilight Zone Music*

Mel...

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That's all well and fine, but what I'm saying is the boy knows he is going against his school rules, knows what the consequences will be, and is willing to pay them to go to the dance. His parents are the ones fighting, not him.

The principal signed the permission slip, then said 'there will be consequences', then scurried off to tell on the boy. He didn't say "No, I won't sign". Wouldn't THAT have been sticking to his prinicpals?

Personally I would have a problem signing a contract that tried to control my behavior outside of school. But, being a teacher I understand there are some behaviors unacceptable off of school grounds; usually they're already illegal, but some, like pole dancing, are not. However, they did sign the contract. The boy knew what would happen, and he chose to do it. But HE CHOSE, and he is accepting the consequences. He's acting like an adult, IMO.

All right. Let's try another metaphor. Or is this a simile?

You take a job, mostly because you really need it. Family to feed and all that. The company insists you sign an employment contract.

Among its stipulations are 'You must go to church on Sundays and it must be affiliated with a particular religion' and 'You may not support this particular political party in any way'. Breaking these stipulations is a firing offense.

Is the company stepping over the line?

Romantic Heretic said:

All right. Let's try another metaphor. Or is this a simile?

You take a job, mostly because you really need it. Family to feed and all that. The company insists you sign an employment contract.

Among its stipulations are 'You must go to church on Sundays and it must be affiliated with a particular religion' and 'You may not support this particular political party in any way'. Breaking these stipulations is a firing offense.

Is the company stepping over the line?

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You live in a country, mostly because you're born there. Place to live and all that. The government insists they're in charge of your life.

Among its stipulations are 'You must give up 40% of what you earn to support us and our schemes' and 'You must obey the millions of regulations controlling virtually everything you do.' Breaking these stipulations will land you in prison.

Is the government stepping over the line?

RH, your analogy doesn't hold. Mostly because the employer is paying you for your time and actions. In this case, the parents are probably paying the school.

The kid isn't getting paid either, although he is getting grades. So, if one were to equate pay with grades, you could argue that the school is "docking his grades" if he goes to this dance. This may well effect what college he goes to, what financial aid he gets, etc.

The analogy may hold then, but the employment contract would be contrary to the employment laws of the land.

Don said:

You live in a country, mostly because you're born there. Place to live and all that. The government insists they're in charge of your life.

Among its stipulations are 'You must give up 40% of what you earn to support us and our schemes' and 'You must obey the millions of regulations controlling virtually everything you do.' Breaking these stipulations will land you in prison.

Is the government stepping over the line?

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If you hate government so much why not move somewhere where there isn't one? Afghanistan for example. I also hear the Congo is nice this time of year.

"I like taxes. They buy me civilization." - Oliver Wendell Holmes

Williebee said:

RH, your analogy doesn't hold. Mostly because the employer is paying you for your time and actions. In this case, the parents are probably paying the school.

The kid isn't getting paid either, although he is getting grades. So, if one were to equate pay with grades, you could argue that the school is "docking his grades" if he goes to this dance. This may well effect what college he goes to, what financial aid he gets, etc.

The analogy may hold then, but the employment contract would be contrary to the employment laws of the land.

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I think it holds. In both cases an institution is misusing its power to involve itself in an individual's personal life and beliefs.

OK, think of those boot-camps kids are sent to for behavior problems, though. They are entirely legal, but they retrict all kinds of things that would be illegal to restrict normally. I think the attitude of parents on some religious private schools are similar to these boot-camp programs. The legality is probably similar.

In boarding school uber-religious programs, lots of things are restricted 24/7. I believe the idea is that sometimes private schools and programs are allowed to act as a parental substitute, if that's what the parents agreed to.

backslashbaby said:

OK, think of those boot-camps kids are sent to for behavior problems, though. They are entirely legal, but they retrict all kinds of things that would be illegal to restrict normally. I think the attitude of parents on some religious private schools are similar to these boot-camp programs. The legality is probably similar.

In boarding school uber-religious programs, lots of things are restricted 24/7. I believe the idea is that sometimes private schools and programs are allowed to act as a parental substitute, if that's what the parents agreed to.

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Again, not really, because most behavioral "boot camp" type facilities are correctional in nature -- either court ordered, or as an alternative to expulsion offered through the public school system. Public, not private, and not necessarily voluntary.

But it does work in terms of taking religion out of the picture.

If parent or guardian signed their kid into the program, whether they are writing the check directly to it or not, they agreed to be bound by the rules.

That said, I admire the kid for standing up for what he feels is his right. And, as mentioned before by someone else upthread, find it slimy that the school principal would sign off on the kid going to the other school prom, and then threaten him with consequences if he went.

Romantic Heretic said:

All right. Let's try another metaphor. Or is this a simile?

You take a job, mostly because you really need it. Family to feed and all that. The company insists you sign an employment contract.

Among its stipulations are 'You must go to church on Sundays and it must be affiliated with a particular religion' and 'You may not support this particular political party in any way'. Breaking these stipulations is a firing offense.

Is the company stepping over the line?

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Provided the company is not connected with the government and you were not coersed into signing, then no. Private schools, private companies will have more restrictive policies. It could be to require wearing purple sunglasses at all waking hours. It doesn't matter how stupid someone else thinks the rule is, as long as it is not illegal. If you don't like it, go elsewhere. You need a job, but you don't need that particular job. That kid needs an education, but it needn't be from that particular school. Personally I'm glad to hear of these kinds of things, because were I moving to that area and had children of an age to attend such a school I'd know to not bother with that one, and maybe, just maybe not to bother with moving there at all. If his classmates object, they might all give the finger to the principal after they all have their diplomas. If the families object, the school will see a drop in enrollment.

In order for a society to be free. One must be free to fail and free to be an ass (provided they only use legal means, and no disrespect to donkeys everywhere).

That's a very interesting viewpoint.

So you're saying that the government, by the people and for the people, has no right to determine your behavior in anyway whatsoever?

But a private institution can impose any limitation it wishes at any time?

Williebee said:

That said, I admire the kid for standing up for what he feels is his right. And, as mentioned before by someone else upthread, find it slimy that the school principal would sign off on the kid going to the other school prom, and then threaten him with consequences if he went.

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That's the part that bothers me. You want to have rules and regulations? Fine. You want to punish students who agreed to these rules and regulations that they agreed to and are breaking? Fine.

You sign off and give your permission then threaten after the fact? So not fine. If you want to stick to your guns don't sign the freakin slip. But to sign it and then say, well I'm giving you this so you can go, if you go though, mister, there's going to be serious consequences. Do what God wants you to do, not what you want.

dgiharris said:

I gotta disagree. If this were a public school, then you are absolutely right. But i'm assuming that this religious school is a private school.

And that the family signed some sort of 'contract' with the school. Religious school are more than just schools, they are communities with rules and laws that EXTEND BEYOND THE CLASSROOM.

What if a student at a religious school was a pole dancer at night? Using your logic this should be o.k. right?

Do I think the school is overreacting? Sure. But it is a religious school with beliefs that I do not have so why should this particular belief be different or ignored?

If you don't want to follow the rules of a private school then don't go to said school, you do have a choice.

In this case, as ridiculous as it sounds, I have to side with the school.

Mel...

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I agree with you wholeheartedly.

This is what the private school believes. Nobody should infringe on that belief. Period. No matter how loopy and ridiculous and non-Christ-like the belief may be, it's the PRIVATE school's right to have that belief and enforce it.

If the kid doesn't like it, they should put him in public school or find a private school that matches their belief.

Romantic Heretic said:

That's a very interesting viewpoint.

So you're saying that the government, by the people and for the people, has no right to determine your behavior in anyway whatsoever?

But a private institution can impose any limitation it wishes at any time?

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Try reading the entire post. That is certainly NOT what I said.

You know, it occurred to me last night, thinking about this story, that this would be an excellent jumping-off point for a "based (loosely) on a real story" 80's style raunchy teen sex comedy with lots of dancing, rock music, gratuitous nudity, wacky hijinks, underage drinking, cussing and of course the classic sentimental boy-gets-girl/rebel love ending. It's not so often that someone so very reminiscent of the "evil dean" stereotype shows up in real life like this, after all.

If such a movie did get made, they would need to show the (very slightly altered for legal purposes) name of the school frequently, along with lots of very recognizable exterior shots.

...

Well, I can dream, right?

More seriously, my best wishes to the kid, and I hope he manages to disentangle himself from the ugly community he's gotten involved with.

I wanted to provide updates about the student:

Situation on Monday

News Video and summary below

Hope that answers questions about "what happened after".