Cultural Appropriation Prize

DancingMaenid

New kid...seven years ago!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 7, 2007
Messages
5,058
Reaction score
460
Location
United States
I feel like appropriation is more of an issue when people stereotype other cultures or experiences or take what they want from them without doing justice to the people. There's a world of difference between being sincerely influenced or writing diverse characters and, for example, using aspects of indigenous or non-Western cultures to add something "exotic" to your story.

I've never felt uncomfortable writing characters who come from different backgrounds than me. But I'm interested in being respectful and treating them like realistic people, not stereotypes.

I disagree with people who think that avoiding cultural appropriation means never writing about characters who are outside your radius of experience/identity. That can be an oversimplification that doesn't really address the root problems.
 

Albedo

Alex
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 17, 2007
Messages
7,363
Reaction score
2,924
Location
A dimension of pure BEES
Amusing.

My point stands, though. I wonder if the cultural ennui that compels some white authors to want to "Get outside your own head. Relentlessly explore the lives of people who aren’t like you, who you didn’t grow up with, who don’t share your background, bank balance and expectations" might be better served by, I dunno, just writing about elves, or something.
 

Jan74

Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 10, 2017
Messages
1,072
Reaction score
136
Location
Canada
Not the OP or the article writer, so this is all spitball speculation, but I'm thinking it's not so much a blatant "Keep Out" sign as a "white privilege" thing, the subtle but very real accumulation of preferences and biases and other factors that leads to white people tending to get more "wins" than minorities; in highly competitive fields like the arts, I'd guess this would be magnified. If aspiring authors in a given native culture have, say, less access to education that encourages writing (IIRC, education issues continue to plague many native communities), fewer role models in writing, etc., then go up against editors who might be more likely to prefer white-sounding names to something that sounds native (studies have shown how names affect employer reactions to resumes, and a query/manuscript is a writer's resume), or believe that there isn't as big a market for a native voice on native culture compared to a white voice (possibly one of those chicken-and-egg issues: they may not consider it as marketable because fewer native voices are published in the market)... It adds up.
Good point.

I feel like appropriation is more of an issue when people stereotype other cultures or experiences or take what they want from them without doing justice to the people. There's a world of difference between being sincerely influenced or writing diverse characters and, for example, using aspects of indigenous or non-Western cultures to add something "exotic" to your story.

I've never felt uncomfortable writing characters who come from different backgrounds than me. But I'm interested in being respectful and treating them like realistic people, not stereotypes.

I disagree with people who think that avoiding cultural appropriation means never writing about characters who are outside your radius of experience/identity. That can be an oversimplification that doesn't really address the root problems.
Yes, I know from some native blogs I've read have issues with the stereo-type, that because they are native they are perceived to be this "one with nature" type person etc.
 

rugcat

Lost in the Fog
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 27, 2005
Messages
16,339
Reaction score
4,110
Location
East O' The Sun & West O' The Moon
Website
www.jlevitt.com
Amusing.

My point stands, though. I wonder if the cultural ennui that compels some white authors to want to "Get outside your own head. Relentlessly explore the lives of people who aren’t like you, who you didn’t grow up with, who don’t share your background, bank balance and expectations" might be better served by, I dunno, just writing about elves, or something.
White authors who write about elves and such and whose entire cast of characters is white definitely get some grief over that. Because in fantasy land POCs don't exist?

On the other hand, if they write POC characters then their authenticity is challenged.

If you're a writer, sometimes you can't win.
 

Jan74

Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 10, 2017
Messages
1,072
Reaction score
136
Location
Canada
White authors who write about elves and such and whose entire cast of characters is white definitely get some grief over that. Because in fantasy land POCs don't exist?

On the other hand, if they write POC characters then their authenticity is challenged.

If you're a writer, sometimes you can't win.

Agreed! My first novel to actually take traction and get going I abandoned because of this issue, it had no white people in it. Now the novel I'm writing is all white people. I know there can be a mixture of people, it's something I have to think about, because honestly I'm not experienced enough to get it right. Ok it's late and I'm off to bed now :) Goodnight AW
 

MaeZe

Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 6, 2016
Messages
12,774
Reaction score
6,481
Location
Ralph's side of the island.
If an author gets it wrong, and gawd knows there are a million examples of people getting someone else's culture wrong, then complain about the wrong. But treating a culture like it was copyrighted, no, that ignores the fact many authors have gotten it right.

It also ignores the fact many people regularly cross cultural barriers, live in multiple worlds, bring fresh insights as outside observers, and more.
 
Last edited:

Snitchcat

Dragon-kitty.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 2, 2006
Messages
6,344
Reaction score
975
Location
o,0
This is one of the articles I was looking for about the ethnic representation of authors, albeit, it's from 2013 and focuses on the Children's market, but is quite telling: http://ccblogc.blogspot.hk/2013/07/i-see-white-people.html

The important paragraph is here (bolding mine):

Of the 1509 books published in 2013 that we have received so far, 1183 (or 78.3%) are about human beings. If we subtract the 326 books about nonhuman characters from the overall total and just figure the percentages of books about people of color among the books with human characters only, we still get a fairly dismal number: of the 1183 books published so far in 2013 about human beings, 124 of those books feature people of color. That's 10.48%. We're only half way through the publishing year and the fall season is usually the heaviest, but it still looks like we are on track for yet another year of stagnation.

How this article came to its figures and conclusions is explained in http://ccbc.education.wisc.edu/books/pcstats.asp. Its counting method is under "How We Count" (obviously this isn't the full explanation):

The four broad groupings we use do not represent cultural specificity; we track this in the annual records we keep listing the individual titles. Our Latino log, for example, is organized by specific region and then country or heritage group within it, so a book about a Cuban American child, or a book about or set in the Domincan Republic or Mexico, is recorded as such. A book about Aztec people living in Mexico would be recorded in both the American Indian and Latino logs.

We count a book as "about" if the main character/subject is a person of color, or if we are able to determine based on examining a book that a person of color features significantly in the narrative. So a novel in which the main character is white will be included if we are able to determine a secondary character of color is important in the story. We do not count a book if the principle character is white and there are a range of secondary characters, including characters of color, but none of the characters of color seem to play a significant role.

If you scroll further down, the article provides figures for up to 2017. However, only 2014 contains a link to a more detailed breakdown and graphical presentation: http://ccbc.education.wisc.edu/books/2014statistics.asp

After the Lee & Low Books Blog conducted their "Diversity Baseline Survey" in 2015 and posted the results, they posted a follow-up article in 2016: http://blog.leeandlow.com/2016/02/10/the-diversity-baseline-survey-what-happens-next/

From what has been presented, it suggests that the publishing industry (at least in English) is still heavily weighted in favour of White professionals, which in turn tends towards White stories or writers with White-sounding names. Ergo, people prefer to look for things with which they are familiar; the unfamiliar is at best a challenge, and at worst is terrifying. Superficially, this is an unfair viewpoint. However, dig a little deeper and the trends tend to show up: a look through any bookshelf in an English(-dominant) bookshop shows the majority of author names sound "White".

So, while there are POC writers and there are cultures other than Western ones being written about, by and large, there is still not that many #ownvoices published authors (or #ownvoices industry employees). Which lends itself to the statement that cultural appropriation will always dominate the English publishing industry until such a time as a balance of #ownvoices vs. non-native voices writers is achieved.

To that end, then, one solution -- as many have already stated -- is to thoroughly research the culture that is not one's own.

That said, this is a sensitive and broad, but fascinating, topic.
 
Last edited:

Snitchcat

Dragon-kitty.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 2, 2006
Messages
6,344
Reaction score
975
Location
o,0
It also ignores the fact many people regularly cross cultural barriers, live in multiple worlds, bring fresh insights as outside observers, and more.

While I understand this, I am still ambivalent.

Although one may live in a different culture to one's native culture, and could be fully immersed in this second culture, one is not a native. So, even though writing about one's second culture from an immersive viewpoint, one could still be considered appropriating culture.

But when is it not appropriating culture, despite not appearing to be of that culture? Perhaps, it'd be helpful to define "native of a culture" as being born into, and growing up, in it. "Non-native" would be someone who moved to their second culture after spending their childhood elsewhere.

For example, there are Hongkongers who're Indian or Filippino or mixed. But they are Hongkongers because they were born into the Hong Kong culture, grew up in it, and the culture is where they define themselves. On the other hand, there are those who have lived in Hong Kong for years, have immersed themselves in the culture, but only as an adult or after they had spent their childhood elsewhere. Though considered close to native, they are not native Hongkongers. There are nuances that, regardless of time spent, are not accessible to a non-native. For instance, the ironic usage of part of an idiom without the ironic tone. This would be clear to the natives that the person speaking is being ironic. Subtle clues may include the use of vocabulary and the pitch and pronunciations used. However, a non-native may miss these tip-offs, thus draw the wrong conclusion, even though the non-native has been immersed in Hong Kong for decades.

This example could be transplanted to being a native UK citizen: There are many ethinic minority children born into, and who grow up, in the UK culture. Outwardly, they do not resemble a UK citizen (i.e., pale, usually blonde), yet they are natives. In the same way, people who move to the UK after spending their childhood in a different country are close to native, but not truly native to the UK.

So, if the second group (non-natives) are writing about their second culture, is it cultural appropriation? Yes. Maybe not to a great degree, but the appropriation is there.

Did I make sense?
 

WriterDude

Writer?
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 11, 2012
Messages
4,177
Reaction score
230
Location
The North West
I understand where cultural appropriation comes from, and its a pretty good reason for me to stay away from diversity. I have gay characters and people of colour, but these can only ever be incidental details revealed only by their name, or the name of their partner, but that's as far as I dare go now, and my work is all the poorer for it, but I don't like criticism or confrontation.

My own culture is rather marginalised now. Coal mines, brass bands and working men's clubs are all but gone, Englishness is nationalism now, apparently, and that's as bad as racism, m'kay. White might well be a position of privilege, but it's not a culture.

Yeah, its much easier to write about elves and trolls.
 

Curlz

cutsie-pie
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 5, 2016
Messages
2,213
Reaction score
382
Location
here

kikazaru

Benefactor Member
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 23, 2005
Messages
2,142
Reaction score
433
But here's the thing - nothing is created in a vacuum. We are all inspired by something or someone else (especially now when everything is so immediate). In the middle ages, inspiring artists went to work with well known artists and were encouraged to copy the master's work - some to such great effect that it's extremely difficult if not impossible to decide if the work was done by the more famous artist or his disciple.

I'm a dabbler - writing and painting strictly for my own enjoyment. For a long time I loved to read British writers from the early 20th century. When I wrote, I could see myself that my wording or turn of phrase was directly influenced by those writers. I wasn't copying them per se, but what I produced was similar because I couldn't help it - the story in my head needed to be be told that way in order for me to write.

I can't imagine anyone's creative voice being stymied because they are afraid that what they've produced will be criticized not for it's own merit, but because someone recognizes something else in your work, that you couldn't help.
 

lizmonster

Possibly A Mermaid Queen
Absolute Sage
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 5, 2012
Messages
14,534
Reaction score
24,104
Location
Massachusetts
Website
elizabethbonesteel.com
I can't imagine anyone's creative voice being stymied because they are afraid that what they've produced will be criticized not for it's own merit, but because someone recognizes something else in your work, that you couldn't help.

This is a subject that tends to get contentious, and I suspect if non-white, non-European writers were better represented in the published world, conversations like this wouldn't be necessary. And I think there is a spectrum, and I think it can feel like a contradiction when you want to reflect the reality of our diverse world, but you're feeling worried that you won't get parts of it right because it's not your direct lived experience. (I dodge a little of this by writing far future, and even then I'm acutely aware that there's a middle-class-USA shadow over the culture I've built, despite my efforts to make it otherwise.)

Having said that...I'm a middle-class cis hetero white lady, and I've read more badly-written women than I can count. Why should I be surprised - or threatened - when it's pointed out to me that people regularly trivialize and misrepresent people from different backgrounds as well? And almost every writer does it with good intentions. I doubt there are many authors out there (I can think of a few, but they're not subtle about it) who sit down and think "I am writing this to offend as many people as I can!"

I think it's the "that you couldn't help" that people are questioning these days. I do think a lot of writers marginalize and stereotype the "not-me"s in their books inadvertently, but with all the public discussion about diversity, it can seem to others that the writer is being naive, stubborn, or foolishly vain.

As writers, I think there are two things we can do: one, write authentically, and do our best to get it right; and two, amplify the voices that have traditionally been talked over and pushed out. And maybe, now and then, choose not to write a story that isn't ours to write.
 

Twick

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 16, 2014
Messages
3,291
Reaction score
715
Location
Canada
So, if the second group (non-natives) are writing about their second culture, is it cultural appropriation? Yes. Maybe not to a great degree, but the appropriation is there.

Did I make sense?

No, not really. Because by this definition, your second group cannot write about ANY culture without "appropriating" it.

Purity tests have never led to anything good.
 

Putputt

permanently suctioned to Buz's leg
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 10, 2012
Messages
5,448
Reaction score
2,980
This is a subject that tends to get contentious, and I suspect if non-white, non-European writers were better represented in the published world, conversations like this wouldn't be necessary.

Yep. Unfortunately I think the publishing industry has a tendency of publishing stories about PoCs that are written by white writers instead of PoCs, which is...somewhat infuriating as a PoC. *twitches* If this weren't the case, I doubt this would be such a controversial issue. But because PoCs are repeatedly pushed down in favor of white writers writing PoCs' stories, cultural appropriation is a thing.

Having said that, I think I largely disagree with the thought that you can ONLY write about your own culture. I live in a country with Blasphemy laws and censorship and I've witnessed how damaging restrictions can be to creators. Also, I've read quite a few MSs by white writers with PoC MCs that were excellent and well-researched. So I would much rather use my time to uplift marginalized voices than suppress privileged ones.

I think DancingMaenid's got the answer here:

I feel like appropriation is more of an issue when people stereotype other cultures or experiences or take what they want from them without doing justice to the people. There's a world of difference between being sincerely influenced or writing diverse characters and, for example, using aspects of indigenous or non-Western cultures to add something "exotic" to your story.

I've never felt uncomfortable writing characters who come from different backgrounds than me. But I'm interested in being respectful and treating them like realistic people, not stereotypes.

I disagree with people who think that avoiding cultural appropriation means never writing about characters who are outside your radius of experience/identity. That can be an oversimplification that doesn't really address the root problems.

To me, there's a simple solution when you want to write characters from marginalized groups...

1. Do your research.
2. Get plenty of beta readers from that group and ask them to be very, very honest.

I would say that we need to do these steps even if we're writing Own Voices, because being part of a marginalized community doesn't automatically make us immune to prejudice. It kills me that I'm so worried and anxious about getting things right even when I write Own Voices and I get sensitivity readers *even when I write Own Voices*, and then I come across certain privileged writers who don't care enough to do their research or get sensitivity readers when writing marginalized characters, and it's like...arrrggghhh. *so much internal screaming at the sense of entitlement and arrogance*

Uhm. So. Yus, very complicated subject.
 

DancingMaenid

New kid...seven years ago!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 7, 2007
Messages
5,058
Reaction score
460
Location
United States
I understand where cultural appropriation comes from, and its a pretty good reason for me to stay away from diversity. I have gay characters and people of colour, but these can only ever be incidental details revealed only by their name, or the name of their partner, but that's as far as I dare go now, and my work is all the poorer for it, but I don't like criticism or confrontation.

I'm curious if you've observed many instances where an author faced serious condemnation only for writing outside their own communities or if this is a hypothetical concern.

Honestly, I'm not extremely familiar with the context in Canada (which seems to have jump-started this thread), but in spite of some people speaking theoretically about their objections to people writing about groups that they are not a part of, I have never actually seen this translated into action against any writers for that reason. I've only seen writers face serious criticism if:

- Their portrayal of a marginalized group was widely viewed as prejudiced or stereotypical.

- The writer appropriated a particular identity that they didn't actually have, such as claiming to be a gay man when they were actually a straight, cisgender woman.

- The writer came across as overly-defensive or unwilling to learn from others.

I've never actually seen a writer face serious consequences only for writing outside their community. And the fact that there are some people who take very strict views of what constitutes cultural appropriation doesn't constitute a serious risk.

I'm not saying this is how you're approaching this, but I think there's a tendency sometimes for well-meaning people who are coming from some positions of privilege to feel taken aback if their efforts aren't universally appreciated. Or to feel that being progressive exempts them from any association with oppression. Wanting approval from an entire group of people is not a feasible goal, nor is it really a goal that recognizes the diversity and individuality within groups.

Nobody has to feel okay about insults/attacks. Being an ally doesn't just mean hanging your head in shame or accepting whatever people tell you or whatever they accuse you of.

But I think there can be an implicit double standard where minority groups as a whole are placed under a heavy burden to be sufficiently grateful and appreciative. Nobody wants to be judged as though they're part of a hive mind. If you don't like people making assumptions about you because you're a white man, how do you think POC or LGBT people feel if your comfort writing them is dependent on you not having any bad experiences with anyone in their communities?

There can also be a lack of perspective, I think. I'm not going to say that bullying doesn't happen, because it does. Or that it's okay to make assumptions about people, because it's not. But generally speaking, a POC venting about white people is not going to pose a huge threat to them. Marginalized people have to deal with people's unpleasant opinions about them on a daily basis. I can't go on online without encountering transphobic opinions. It's a part of my day to day life. If I stopped engaging with the world because if it, people would tell me I'm too sensitive. But if a cisgender person feels unfairly judged by trans people, it's a huge deal.

And sometimes part of being an ally is accepting that some people have had really bad experiences and have strong feelings, and recognizing that they're not always about you as an individual and that you can't do much accept respect where they're coming from.

You can also disagree with people! Groups of people aren't hive minds. You can consider someone's perspective, look at it in context, and decide you don't agree. You will never please everyone, ever. I don't know why writers can accept that some critics might not like their books for artistic reasons but expect all LGBT people to like how they portray LGBT characters, etc. LGBT people don't even agree about characters/stories written by other LGBT people. That's life.
 

Vince524

Are you gonna finish that bacon?
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 8, 2010
Messages
15,903
Reaction score
4,652
Location
In a house
Website
vincentmorrone.com
I wrote a book where the subplot involved a gay couple, 1 guy comfortable being out, the other who was in the closet in terms of his family, but feeling comfortable being away from home. It was used as a way to allow the male MC to talk about how secrets can be very difficult to reveal.

As a straight male, I hadn't experienced anything like that, so I contacted a few friends for feedback and even used one of the forums here on AW to make sure what I was having the characters do and say was believable. The only complaint I've received was from a guy who told me the male to male kissing made him uncomfortable, but he still liked the book.

What else am I supposed to do? Never write about characters who are straight, white males? Do they have to be middle aged, balding, and severely overweight? (Although down nearly 100lbs.) Must they be KISS fans too?
 

Jan74

Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 10, 2017
Messages
1,072
Reaction score
136
Location
Canada
As writers, I think there are two things we can do: one, write authentically, and do our best to get it right; and two, amplify the voices that have traditionally been talked over and pushed out. And maybe, now and then, choose not to write a story that isn't ours to write.
Agreed.
Yep. Unfortunately I think the publishing industry has a tendency of publishing stories about PoCs that are written by white writers instead of PoCs, which is...somewhat infuriating as a PoC. *twitches* If this weren't the case, I doubt this would be such a controversial issue. But because PoCs are repeatedly pushed down in favor of white writers writing PoCs' stories, cultural appropriation is a thing.
I wonder if this will change since people can self publish? Maybe the ability to self publish will be the best thing for those who feel marginalized and want to be heard. Or maybe the publishers shy away from writers writing about minorities because of the backlash?

It's definitely a hot issue here in Canada, like all things though it will settle down.
 

Jan74

Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 10, 2017
Messages
1,072
Reaction score
136
Location
Canada
Wait, what I write has to be good? Crap, I'm really screwed.

I know right!!! Do we need a forum dedicated to the mediocre, the crappy, the learning as we go but not quite there yet? Whew....glad I'm not alone :)
 

MaeZe

Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 6, 2016
Messages
12,774
Reaction score
6,481
Location
Ralph's side of the island.
Yep. Unfortunately I think the publishing industry has a tendency of publishing stories about PoCs that are written by white writers instead of PoCs, ....
See now that's a legit issue, in my opinion, as is plagiarizing some other artist's work.

But when you are not precise in what the complaint is, such as calling it a blanket name like cultural appropriation, you weaken your case.
 

Snitchcat

Dragon-kitty.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 2, 2006
Messages
6,344
Reaction score
975
Location
o,0
No, not really. Because by this definition, your second group cannot write about ANY culture without "appropriating" it.

Purity tests have never led to anything good.

Yes, by the definition I offered, the second group is not able to write about another culture without appropriating it. However, as I also said: maybe not to a great degree.

Purity tests? I'm guessing at the meaning here since this isn't a term I'm familiar with. However, I will say that my posts are my opinion, and there is no purity testing involved.

Oh, and it figures I wasn't making sense. Will try to clarify later after I've thought some more about what I was trying to convey. Thanks. :)
 
Last edited:

Putputt

permanently suctioned to Buz's leg
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 10, 2012
Messages
5,448
Reaction score
2,980
What else am I supposed to do? Never write about characters who are straight, white males? Do they have to be middle aged, balding, and severely overweight? (Although down nearly 100lbs.) Must they be KISS fans too?

Oookay, Vince. Who's asking you to do that? Most of the posts here seem to be of agreement that you should write what you want, just do it responsibly. This kind of hyperbole is really not helpful. What's a joking matter to you is actually a serious issue for many.

Oh, for crying out loud. I want to read a great story. Write what you want and call it good.

Nope. I'm sorry, but I think this is the sort of attitude that ends up harming marginalized voices. It's great that you're in a position where you can handwave all of the shit away in the name of art, but for many people, harmful messages sent by the media is their reality and not just something they can dismiss. Like I said, I think writers and creators should be able to use outside material they wish for their art, but if you're taking something from a marginalized group, you better damn well do it RESPONSIBLY. This whole "Write what you want and call it good" is fucking harmful BS that only people from a privileged position can afford to say. Write what you want, but be fucking responsible about it. Jesus.

Sorry for the rant, I just...like I said, I'm SO careful even when I write about my own culture, and seeing this flippant attitude just fucking KILLS me, and I see it ALL. THE. TIME. You're welcome to write about my culture and other marginalized cultures, but please, please don't approach it with this attitude.

See now that's a legit issue, in my opinion, as is plagiarizing some other artist's work.

But when you are not precise in what the complaint is, such as calling it a blanket name like cultural appropriation, you weaken your case.

Yea, I agree with that...I also find the term Own Voices somewhat problematic. I use it as a blanket name, but then when I stop to think about it, I don't like what the movement has become. It's almost like a way of policing people to only stay within their lanes, and I disagree with that.
 
Last edited: