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    • In order to reduce the number of new members requesting a Beta reader before they're really ready for one, we've instituted a 50 post requirement before you can start a thread seeking a Beta reader.
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Why I Won't Beta Read Your Novel

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muse

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Great thread, Maryn.

I don't know if this is just me, but I really dislike when the assumption is that if someone offers to beta for you (not because you asked, but they offer), you're going to automatically beta their novel in return. I offer to beta for people all the time based on excerpts I've read of their work and descriptions of their novel, or even query letters. And I don't expect that just because, say, I read both MG and YA, that this MG writer I offer to beta for is going to want to read my YA novel. Just because their query or writing caught my eye, doesn't mean I expect that mine has done the same.

I think I might have got the wrong end of the stick, (probably the sharp, pointy end :D) But I thought if you asked for a beta you were honour bound to beta in exchange.

Saying that, an AW member did offer to read my MS and he made some fantastic comments, which I'm now working on. I did feel uncomfortable, though, that I couldn't return the favour for him.

To hear that some people don't even bother to thank their beta's is beyond belief, it's simple courtesy after all.
 

Amadan

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I think I might have got the wrong end of the stick, (probably the sharp, pointy end :D) But I thought if you asked for a beta you were honour bound to beta in exchange.

I don't agree. If you want to make quid pro quo a condition of betaing, work that out with each other, but I would not assume that if I beta for someone they have implicitly agreed to beta my work, or vice versa.
 

Maryn

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I've beta read for people who have offered to beta mine, and I've beta read for people who were effusive with their gratitude and told me specifically which remarks they found most valuable. (My favorites thanked me all over again when the work sold.) So far I have not asked for a beta from anybody whose work I beta-ed, due to genre incompatibility.

I understand that for some people, a small gift is the right thing to do, but it's not the norm. I always wonder if those people are friends in addition to betas.

To me, the ideal is a nice big display of gratitude, an offer to return the favor, and the promise to pass in on, doing a beta for someone else, and soon.

Maryn, who hasn't seen her first beta in a while--hope he's busy writing
 

san_remo_ave

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I've beta'd and been beta'd here (and elsewhere) and I've been fortunate to have generally positive experiences. I not only make sure to thank people for their time and consideration, but also I try to share back with them what I found particularly helpful about their remarks --everyone does help in some way, even if I don't incorporate all suggestions. Some of the most insightful remarks came from folks who are generally lurkers and have very low posting count. They're the other, unseen and unspoken, side of the coin --the people on here who don't ask for betas, but DO offer to do them for the right story, and don't ask for anything in return. So, it's not all take, take, take is my point.

The one piece I've asked for a beta here (as opposed to the odd scene in SYW) I went on to sell with my target publisher. I attribute that to not only the insightful reads from betas, but to all of the discussion and interaction on these threads. I read, I participate, I pay-it-forward when I can. It's a cumulative benefit and Maryn's suggestions on how to get involved are all spot-on.

Oh, and FWIW, I not only thank my critters, betas and commenters in SYW, I dedicated that first pubbed story to AW and all of the folks here.

I love you guys. *sniff*
 

muse

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I don't agree. If you want to make quid pro quo a condition of betaing, work that out with each other, but I would not assume that if I beta for someone they have implicitly agreed to beta my work, or vice versa.


Yup, as I feared, I got the sharp pointy end.:D

Thanks for clearing that up, Amadan.
 
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I try do my best for any story I'm beta-reading, and I hope for the same in return. In most cases, I've gotten it--with one novel, Prawn's rather intense critique has completely changed the beginning of the novel for the better.

So when it works, it works.

I've had people never respond, not thank me, etc. Do you know what I do when this happens? Nothing. I move on with my life.

So I guess what I'm really trying to say here is the negative aspects of beta-reading, they come with the territory and aren't really worth dwelling on.
 

sneakysnail

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Maryn,

Loved this post, I want to print it and hand it out to those I read for. I have done a few here at AW and only put out a few chapters of my own. I try to give the best and detailed critique as possible. In general , I have had great responses.
However, I also do lots of beta reads from outside AW (helps me edit my own) and those are the ones who never respond. I just try to think of it as experience for me.

Again, Loved it!;)
 

stormie

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Hey, Maryn? Would you read my 200,000 word romantic thriller western fiction novel manuscript like, in two days? I'm all set to query a gadzillion agents and I need a fast read. Oh, and thanks ahead of time, since I'll be too busy to thank you when you send it back to me.

*stormie now gets serious.*
About the only things I'll beta read are some queries and some first chapters. And picture books. Most do thank me. Only once did I have a problem, and it wasn't an AWer. She got really upset when I critiqued her PB. It was a mess and I tried to be gentle. Didn't work. But then she wanted me to read her next PB. I politely told her I was really too busy.
 

Devil Ledbetter

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Hmm. I've only asked a select few to beta for me, but I've never had any response other than a resounding "yes." Maybe I'm doing something right.

Beta reading is a big commitment. I wouldn't do it for anyone I didn't already know and like.
 

brainstorm77

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I've been asked to beta through PM. I don't beta, and it's not something I'm interested in doing.

I often wonder why some think I would, since I haven't posted ever offering to beta and I have not posted anything in SYW in ages.
 

JSSchley

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I think 100 posts before showing our own material would be better. Maybe even 200 before asking someone to beta. Just a thought.

I'm not entirely sure post limits are as helpful as meta discussions like this one. Since the 50 post SYW requirement was instituted, I've seen more than a few people make lots of posts in the matter of a day or so, they reach 50, their 51st post was their query or their first few pages, and then they disappeared. I've also seen others amass post count in the high hundreds simply by posting and reposting drafts of their own work and replying repeatedly to people who critted them, but never critting anyone else.

I don't know. I just figure karma often works its own simple magic--if I give people thoughtful, attentive feedback in SYW or even more generally, hopefully they'll remember me and want to help when I post something. I haven't requested any beta readers yet, but I'm really glad to hear that sometimes folks request to read for someone. I've read more than one query in QLH that very effectively did the job of making me want to read the book. Nice to know it's okay to ask (although aftre reading the comments here, I'll be sure to note my read isn't a quid pro quo thing). :)

Great post, Maryn.
 
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Devil Ledbetter

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I'm not entirely sure post limits are as helpful as meta discussions like this one. Since the 50 post SYW requirement was instituted, I've seen more than a few people make lots of posts in the matter of a day or so, they reach 50, their 51st post was their query or their first few pages, and then they disappeared. I've also seen others amass post count in the high hundreds simply by posting and reposting drafts of their own work and replying repeatedly to people.
As far as I can tell, we've had a huge uptick in zombie thread resurrections since the 50-post count rule was instituted. Still, it takes work to get to those 50 posts so it must be cutting down on the drive-by SYW deposits somewhat.
 

Maryn

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Hey, Maryn? Would you read my 200,000 word romantic thriller western fiction novel manuscript like, in two days? I'm all set to query a gadzillion agents and I need a fast read. Oh, and thanks ahead of time, since I'll be too busy to thank you when you send it back to me.
You're joking, of course, but I once did a beta in three days for a novel, because its author knew just what to say. He's the only AW author I've beta read twice. Loved 'em both.

I've also been asked for fast turn-around and had to refuse because I had other commitments, or just didn't feel like it. But no hard feelings.

BTW, I'm hearing via reps of some pretty horrific beta experiences, including one [EDIT: Make that three!] of a person holding his feedback until the author convinced him he'd rewritten the part the beta had already seen to incorporate every change suggested. Wow. Just... wow. Pardon my language, but people are dicks. (No offense to real dicks, of course.)

Maryn, ever so refined
 
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mccardey

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I've had people never respond, not thank me, etc. Do you know what I do when this happens? Nothing. I move on with my life.

So I guess what I'm really trying to say here is the negative aspects of beta-reading, they come with the territory and aren't really worth dwelling on.

I agree with that, except that I think this thread is really important for giving new people an idea of how beta-ing works and what the expectations are.

A post up-thread asked what is expected beyond a thank-you: I think probably just a quick note back saying what was helpful. It's feedback, and feedback will help the beta process survive.

The thread is also bringing up the differences between crit-partners and betas which is worth knowing. And we're learning more and more about Maryn and why puppies should avoid being part of her books - again, invaluable information... :tongue

I like beta-ing - but I like to know I've done it right because I'm new at it, too. I want to know if it's been helpful (or not).
 
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Adobedragon

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Not yet having beta'd with anyone here at AW, what does a beta reader expect for their time and suggestions beyond words of thanks? Do betas expect ongoing dialogue about the project? Updates? Responses to suggestions? Gifts and accolades?

I may be misunderstanding but some former betas have mentioned they "only" received thanks from their writers and that's left me a bit curious.

I expect you to buy all my books and anthologies containing my work. /kidding, obviously

I haven't done much beta reading here, but I've been a member of Critters for years and in that time have read and critiqued hundreds of short stories and about a dozen novel-length manuscripts.

My reason for critiquing/beta reading is entirely selfish. See, the work of reading, evaluating, and explaining what I see as a work's faults, helps me as a writer. It strengthens my ability to see the same faults in my work. Which is why, while I appreciate a "thank you," I don't expect it.

That said, my rules for reading longer work are similar to Maryn's. Obviously, the story doesn't have to be perfect, but I don't want to slog through a hot-off-the-presses, first draft, riddled with typos, grammatical errors, contextual inconsistencies, etc.

Nowadays, because of time constraints, I won't read more than about 5K, unless I really like the first chapter (voice, premise, etc.).
 

stormie

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You're joking, of course, but I once did a beta in three days for a novel, because its author knew just what to say. He's the only AW author I've beta read twice. Loved 'em both.

I've also been asked for fast turn-around and had to refuse because I had other commitments, or just didn't feel like it. But no hard feelings.
Aw, geez--I meant, "Could you read and critique my 200,000+ romantic thriller mystery fiction novel in two hours? I'm sure agents are just dying to read my golden words.

And, oh: thanks ahead of time. I'm really bizee."

--stormie, who writes tongue-in-cheek, esp. when peppermint schnapps is near her right hand.
 

Mr Flibble

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I can see it form both sides, tbh

I was that newbie with F-all knowledge of grammar etc, who found a few people here to beta for me (and they did a spanking job). So, frankly, I don't mind so much if there are issues there that the writer hasn't learnt yet that I can help with as I was helped. I'm paying back what I took. Seems only fair.

I think what IS vital though is a sold communication before the crit gets underway. I tell people what to expect from my crit, and ask them what they are looking for. If they are looking for a grammar nazi, I tell them I ain't it (I'm still a bit shaky on some of the rules!) but I'll point out any things I spot. I also send, with my crit, the offer to answer any questins/brainstorm ideas as I find that for me, that's often the most useful part of the crit. It also encourages response - and I've yet to have anyone not respond to a crit.

But everyone is also entitled to their own reasons for not doing a crit - after all it's a fair chunk of time and brain energy to spend.
 

bettielee

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I've had awesome beta experiences:
I've only had one book of my own beta'd, and was very fortunate in the feedback, but I beta for several others.
There is on AWer who I am (almost) always guaranteed to read her stuff before publication- which makes me happy cuz she are good! <--not the sort of sentence I would find acceptable. I can do it, but you can't. She also was a huge help in beta'ing my first book and giving me chunks of information from writing sources to help me with weak spots in my own writing.

I find that beta'ing actually helps ME. I slip into passive and filtering all the time when I write, but I tend to see it in other's work, and that helps me see it in mine. It's like when you read something that too vague or not "working" in someone else's work you can apply it to your own. I don't know why that happens... it just does.

I like to ask for the person to tell me what they want from the beta experience. If they don't know, it doesn't bode well, but I let them know straight up that it is my duty as a beta to point out what I don't think works. And sentences beginning with And. You know who you are.
 

JayWalloping

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Thank you for writing this Beta-Reader Bill of Rights.

I wonder about the Nervous Novelist Bill of Rights. I've previously had two bad experiences asking folks to beta-read for me. One was a colleague at work I knew had similar reading interests to what I was writing. Another was an online friend. I never got back any response from either. Zero. Zip. I pestered a few times, as much as I was willing to do at the time. I just chalked it up to their being unhappy with what I wrote and unwilling to tell me.

This is the reason I'm a bit reticent to approach complete strangers for a read through. Perhaps if we all think about the give and take it'll work better. Maybe I'll ask one or more nice folks on this board to give it a read. And I will be thankful for any comments. I promise.
 

shadowwalker

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I've beta'd elsewhere for several years and generally I've had great experiences. The only big exception was a gal who not only steadfastly refused to acknowledge that her writing needed "improvement" (as noted by several different betas), but who then went on trash-talk the beta group to others.

But, you know... I lived. ;)
 

ladyleeona

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Bravo, Maryn. Definitely a sticky.

I've had good beta/crit experiences. Most people who are worth reading for are immensely thankful. Others who aren't, well, not so much.

Although I don't consider myself an expert, I'd love to beta for (almost) anyone with a good premise and decent mechanics. Plus, beta-ing for people helps me. Takes me out of the running for sainthood probably, but definitely a win-win scenario, in my mind.
 
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Karen Junker

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I continue to beta, even though I don't get thanked very often, because when I do get mentioned in the acknowledgments page of an author's book it makes me very happy. It's a numbers game for me. The more I beta, the greater the chance I'll get a mention! :)
 
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