Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 1

euclid said:

I assume he means 4-6 pages of the book as published.

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That isn't an assumption that I'd make.

Follett is a writer. He thinks in terms of writing, not of publishing or reading. He's of an age to have learned to write on a typewriter.

I'd assume that he means every 4-6 typescript pages. And since he learned on a typewriter, that's Courier 10 or 12, with one-inch margins all around.

Euclid, all this reading-of-how-to-books and trying to figure out how-many-manuscript-pages-to-the-typeset-page has a name: It's called "Writing Avoidance Behavior." Stop it. Any time you aren't writing you aren't writing.

Go. Write something.

James D. Macdonald said:

That isn't an assumption that I'd make.

Follett is a writer. He thinks in terms of writing, not of publishing or reading. He's of an age to have learned to write on a typewriter.

I'd assume that he means every 4-6 typescript pages. And since he learned on a typewriter, that's Courier 10 or 12, with one-inch margins all around.

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Double-spaced??

Euclid, all this reading-of-how-to-books and trying to figure out how-many-manuscript-pages-to-the-typeset-page has a name: It's called "Writing Avoidance Behavior." Stop it. Any time you aren't writing you aren't writing.

Go. Write something.

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Fair point, but no, I don't think so. I'm polishing my book (for the 15th and soon to be 16th) time. I've done as much as I can think of to improve the pace of the book. Now I'm looking for guidance from the experts on how to do this even better. I'm also reading a lot (trying to read at least 100 pages per day) and researching other authors (like Follett) in the genre (Historical thrillers). I'm still actually working at the typescript 5-6 hours per day.

euclid said:

Double-spaced??

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Yes. Always.

caw

Euclid, your MS will NEVER be ready. You will always find places that you can improve, or change just because, today, it reads a little better. 16 passes through a finished WIP should be more than enough. Write your synopses (short, medium, and detailed), then create the best query letter you can. The query letter will sell you book, not the 21st edit of your WIP.

RJK said:

Euclid, your MS will NEVER be ready. You will always find places that you can improve, or change just because, today, it reads a little better. 16 passes through a finished WIP should be more than enough. Write your synopses (short, medium, and detailed), then create the best query letter you can. The query letter will sell you book, not the 21st edit of your WIP.

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That's a lot of revising IMO. You could tinker with that piece of work forever, Euclid.

The most important thing to do is follow the guidelines for who you're submitting to.
Besides, who cares how many words are on a page or typewriter sheet. Sell the thing and let the publisher worry about it.

That brings me to another thought.

When you sell the publishing rights to a piece of your work, you're basically done with it. You don't own it anymore, and the publisher could never publish the book. You were paid for writing a piece of work. It's over, move on to a new bicycle you can refurbish and set out on the front lawn with a for sale sign taped to the handlebars, and do it all again.

That's the way I see it. Some writers get uber attached to the product of their labor.
I can only laugh when I see someone say. "It's my baby."

Vanity publishers live for and prey on writers who exhibit those emotions.

I should know. Nothing I write is my baby, it a product for sale, that's all.

RJK said:

The query letter will sell you book, not the 21st edit of your WIP.

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True. I'm doomed.

caw

Sixteen times? I thought my own 7 times was pushing it too far.

As Ken said, write the synopsis and query letter and get that thing out. Start writing your next book.

James D. Macdonald said:

Euclid, all this reading-of-how-to-books and trying to figure out how-many-manuscript-pages-to-the-typeset-page has a name: It's called "Writing Avoidance Behavior." Stop it. Any time you aren't writing you aren't writing.

Go. Write something.

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What He Said.

Stop editing the current WIP. Write a new one. Really. Once you've written a few new ones, go back and see if you still want to revise the old one.

That's a lot of revisions...what exactly do you look for when you revise? Do you have a beta?

I'm dreading more than one or two revisions of my next novel, let alone more than 10.

James D. Macdonald said:

Go. Write something.

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This will always be the advice, imo, that trumps anything gleamed from any writing book or anything else you may read. I read it and went and wrote about 3000 words because I felt guilty for reading the thread earlier today

euclid said:

Double-spaced??

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Yes, double-spaced.

Now I'm looking for guidance from the experts on how to do this even better.

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You want to do it better?

Put this book in a desk drawer and write an entire new novel (not a sequel). Something entirely different.

When you've done that, and only then, are you allowed to re-read this book that you've now edited 16 times.

Or, instead of sticking it in a desk-drawer, start submitting it. Either way, you aren't allowed to change a single comma in it unless/until the new book is finished.

Commencing right now.

SilverPhoenix said:

That's a lot of revisions...what exactly do you look for when you revise? Do you have a beta?

I'm dreading more than one or two revisions of my next novel, let alone more than 10.



This will always be the advice, imo, that trumps anything gleamed from any writing book or anything else you may read. I read it and went and wrote about 3000 words because I felt guilty for reading the thread earlier today

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I put 4,000 in my new WIP today. I stuck the last one in the drawer to soak. The new writing is going really well. Each new stab at another novel has me improving by bounds.
I've have four years of practice left on my ten year schedule to publication. If it doesn't happen by then, it most likely won't. But, I'll write on for my own entertainment.

I'm glad I stuck it out. It's been six long years of pounding keys to say, "Hey, that reads like something off the bookshop shelf."

Quoting from Robert Giroux's Introduction in Flannery O'Connor's Complete Stories Faber and Faber:

'In her first letter (June 19,1948) to Miss McKee [her agent], Flannery revealed she had been working on the novel [Wise Blood] "a year and a half and will probably be two more years finishing it." '

and later:

' "I work ALL the time, but I cannot work fast. No one can convince me I shouldn't rewrite as much as I do." '

The book was published in 1952; the first draft of the first chapter was completed in 1947.

It's true that each writer has their own process for writing a book.

It's also true that some writers get stuck on revising one novel (or story).

Speaking only for myself, I find that my best stories are ones I don't tweak to death. And I do mean "to death" because after a certain point the prose loses its vital spark and the story lies there like a Norwegian parrot.

The trick is finding that balance point between "well polished" and "pining for the fjords."

Euclid, if you're enjoying what you're doing, more power to you.

Ken Schneider said:

When you sell the publishing rights to a piece of your work, you're basically done with it. You don't own it anymore, and the publisher could never publish the book.

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Just to jump in: in my contract, it specifies (IIRC) that the publisher has to publish the book in 18 months or the rights revert to me and I get to keep the money.

That's not a clause I would want to enforce, but it's there.

euclid: The first draft of the first chapter of my book was written in 2005 and won't be published until next month. That's only 4 years, not 5 like O'Conners, but there's a lot of time and revision built into the publishing process.

That said, if this is the way you want to go, I say go. One thing I always promised myself was that I would do my best to stick the things that felt most important to me. If I make mistakes, they're going to be my mistakes, not someone else's.

eqb said:

The trick is finding that balance point between "well polished" and "pining for the fjords."

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Very well put. That one's getting posted over my computer.

Ken Schneider said:

I should know. Nothing I write is my baby, it a product for sale, that's all.

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If I knew an author considered their work to be nothing more than product for sale, I almost certainly wouldn't buy it.

I can only laugh when I see someone say. "It's my baby."

Vanity publishers live for and prey on writers who exhibit those emotions.

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I'm not ashamed to say that. I write what I'm passionate about. Being close to my writing doesn't stop me from being open to revising it or removing chapters etc. nor encourage me to go anywhere near a vanity publisher.

Priene said:

If I knew an author considered their work to be nothing more than product for sale, I almost certainly wouldn't buy it.

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Does that mean you buy lots and lots of books from vanity publishers? Because at some point, the author needs to think of their work this way in order to meet deadlines, do the edits and copyedits and promote their work through signings, websites, social networking and so on. You can do it for the love of your work, but if you don't work with the publisher on a professional basis, your career will dissolve pretty quickly.

Our novels are commercial art. There's equal emphasis on both words: Art, true. But also an item of commerce.

Here we see an author riding both art and commerce:



(Gracias al Sr. Zorro.)

Priene said:

If I knew an author considered their work to be nothing more than product for sale, I almost certainly wouldn't buy it.

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It's not say you don't have pride in the writing, or that you didn't enjoy writing the piece. But, asked yourself why you wrote the piece?

Do you think a bicycle maker thinks of their product as something more than a production piece for sale? They like the product they produce, or they wouldn't produce it.

So, in your opinion, you would never buy another production piece. No car, refrig, microwave or TV., bike, et al? What is different about a product of art that you produce?

You know you want to sell it, I assume. Or, is your writing just for personal satisfaction? If a piece is so important to the writer, why would they ever sell it?

Priene said:

If I knew an author considered their work to be nothing more than product for sale, I almost certainly wouldn't buy it.

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How could you tell?

caw

Mr. MacDonald- Thank you for the invitation and I wanted to post to let you know I'm "starting" in theory at the beginning of this thread.... YIKES-

I'm torn over what Mr. S? Said. The stories I write aren't products UNTIL I think I'm finished with all the revisions and edits and re writes etc.

But it is a passion for me as well. If I don't write- It's like holding back a dam emotionally. I have to write. I love tow rite- But I want to write what others will want to read too. so I want to LOVE writing my Product. Basically

Going back to like page two or so lol- maybe I'll go back and forth in there are almost 500 pages. LOL

I can see why you are so respected here Mr. MacDonald. You sound like Steven King in On Writing... Even in The Artist's Way-(which isn't SK)

Personally I feel like everyone should have a routine. No matter what the routine is, because everyone is different. To some- smoking is horrendous- to others its life blood they wouldn't think of stopping. (yikes I made it however can't teach kids how to defend themselves then go out after class to smoke now can you? lol I thought not anyway ) I think the point though- is to HAVE that routine- and do not deviate from it. (From page one and writing for two hours as well as taking revisions elsewhere- I go into the trees or surround myself with crystals conducive to what I'm needing to do... yeah I know- but I do... lol)

I write in the morning and I was never a morning person- but I found that doing that in the early morning- the house was quite- no one asks me to do anything but write- and you are "right" I have several projects going and I can always find something to write about- I have a very tight temper- quick to cool- but quick non-the-less.... So- my character that I LOVE who isn't my baby lol- avenges and I let her avenge for me Very therapeutic

Thanks again Sir.

Kerry Morgan

OMG that last one about made me sick to my stomach LOL AHHH that's a riot. The thought of re writing one of my favorite authors first chapters is like sacrilege.

Take J. R. R. Tolkien's Fellowship-

OMG I wouldn't dare.

that is such a riot!

I have to do it now Have to- done-... onto other things ..... Laurell K Hamilton I'm so doing this LOL

I thought this would stay with the comment sorry- He was talking about what we need to do- buy the copy of the first chess moves or something (to which I will do now even though I know how to play I do everything by ear... I found I was doing this by ear too.

Interesting
K

Kerry Morgan said:

The thought of re writing one of my favorite authors first chapters is like sacrilege.

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No, Kerry. Not re-writing it. Retyping it. Word-for-word. Just the way it appears in the printed book.

The point of the exercise is to get the feeling of the words into your hands and your arms and your shoulders. Just like a painter copies the great masters. Just like a musician learns the music of the greatest composers. Writing is as physical as music or painting.

Later, you'll write your own works. Later, the painter will create her own canvases. Later the musician will play his own riffs. But for right now, just get the feeling of the sentence rhythms of a master writer, of the paragraph lengths, of the words and the letters and the punctuation.

That's what we're doing here.