Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 1

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paritoshuttam

Re: Foreshadowing

That was a wonderful illustration, Uncle Jim. I could sense what was coming from Fortunato's saying a cold would not kill him. But the best was the talk about the freemasons, though I could get its significance only on the second reading, helped along by your pointers.

Is all foreshadowing that subtle? I can understand a discerning reader remembering such details in the duration of a short story, but if you consider a novel, such details in foreshadowing will spread across chapters. Does the average reader (as opposed to a critic) really recalls such details while reading a novel? Unless of course the foreshadowing is done too often (in which case it is hardly a shadow!)...

- Paritosh.
 

maestrowork

Re: Scene Breaks vs Chapter Breaks

In a novel, you can keep bringing up the same details as foreshadows... they will eventually stick.

In my story, I gradually get my protagonist into a drinking habit, thoughout the first half of the book... first a beer, then some wine, then some hard liquor... they're quite subtle... but then a pivotal scene comes and he's at a bar... anyway, an attentive reader should notice the foreshadowing. You don't have to hit them on the head with it. Another thing is a friend of the protagonist is mentioned a few times, in passing, in multiple chapters, so you would think something is going to involve this person, so when he shows up at a pivotal point, the readers would go "a-ha!"
 

James D Macdonald

Re: Foreshadowing

Is all foreshadowing that subtle?

It certainly can be. The entire atmosphere of your book is an artistic space that you create, where everything points to its end. You are responsible for providing the information to the readers, though it can be in very small ways.

When I make a stew I don't dump in the entire box of salt.
 

Fresie

Re: Foreshadowing

When I make a stew I don't dump in the entire box of salt.

Isn't it possible to be too subtle? I often notice that some readers (very few) see the slightest hint where others need a big fat signpost. I guess, the only way to find out is to listen to what beta readers say?

If we spell everything out, we end up with a comic book, but how subtle is too subtle? :huh
 

James D Macdonald

Re: Foreshadowing

Isn't it possible to be too subtle?

Sure. It's all possible. This is why we call this particular trade an art.

If this were a science we could look up a table that would tell us how much and what kind of foreshadowing to use.
 

JuliePgh

How to Write - book

Uncle Jim,

I haven't made it through the whole thread yet, but I couldn't wait any longer to compliment you on all the wonderful advice. If you haven't decided to write a "How to Write" book, please do!

- Julie
 

robertquiller

Yet another Tribute...

Uncle Jim,

I have finally read through the (almost) endless thicket of this thread, and must add my voice to the electronic multitude already extolling you. Great advice! Great way to give advice - so interactive and immediate. I must say these posts have had more effect on me than many 'writing books.' I was so riveted that I think I broke a record - I read this whole thread in a day! (Took almost the *whole* day, too.) Anyway, I have this short-fiction habit I'm trying to break, and this thread is just the impetus I need. I have begun my novel, no longer scared by the 'massiveness' of the idea - in fact I stayed up last night longer than I ever did on a short-story, the ideas just kept poring in. Great thread!

~ R.Q.
 

pencilone

first draft

I've been struggling with my first draft for months (actually I'm too ashamed to say years). I was wondering how is it possible for some of the most prolific writers to write so quickly (for example Nora Roberts and I'm sure there are so many of them that write over 10 novels per year).

On another note, is anyone using voice recognition software (such as Dragon Naturally Speaking) for writing your novel?

Regards,

Pencilone
 

Flawed Creation

Re: Foreshadowing

I just want to agree with the advocates of Good Vs. Good stories.

of course, for a TRULY twisted story, you can combine different elements to make the Good Vs bad more interesting. my story uses all three previously mentioned methods.

there are two groups, allegedly both good. niether is obviously non-good. they conflict, several characters change sides, most fo the characters become more and more bad and les good, the only characters that start out truly bad become good (or at least, one flavor of good.)

finally, it's never spelled out for the reader whihc side is right. you can choose for yourself.

i mention this not to brag, but to point out that a book about the conflict of parties separated by moral issues need not be simple or straightforward.
 

MiltonPope

Dictation Software

I'm using Dragon NaturallySpeaking at least for the early version of my book. It works very well for normal text, but it gets cumbersome when you get into dialogue:

"What are you saying?" Bill demanded.
"I don't have to tell you anything, Bill!"

This is dictated as:
"New-paragraph open-quote What are you saying question-mark close-quote cap [capitalize] bill demanded period new-paragraph open-quote I don't have to tell you anything comma cap bill exclamation-mark close-quote new-paragraph"

(Although there are ways to make it realize that "Bill" is a name.)

Also, it can take a lot of hours before it recognizes nearly everything you say. But after, say, two months of casual use I was very happy with it.

When I dictate, I find that my writing goes much faster than when I type. This isn't because I can't type quickly: it's just the way I think, I guess.

--Milton
 

robertquiller

Dictation Software

I've tried using that same program. I really found it annoying - apart from the time it took to set up, so it would even recognize my voice, all those little extra doo-hickeys you have to say (like you just pointed out) waste time. Maybe it would be easier for you, if you write better by dictation, to record yourself on a tape-recorder, and then type in what you said later. It would cut out the aggravation, and from my experience at least - but there, I'm a typer myself - it would probably actually save time, though it sounds longer.

~ R.Q.
 

James D Macdonald

Re: first draft

Write ten to fifteen pages per day, and you'll have ten novels per year.

See how easy it is?
 

JuliePgh

Displaying Internal Monologue

Uncle Jim,

Please comment on how one should display internal monologues. When is italicizing appropriate or inappropriate? My dilemna is thus: when a character has a lot of internal monologue, either in one scene or spread throughout a chapter, I become worried that there’s too much italics on the pages. On the other hand, I don’t like to see a lot of ‘she thought’ tags to indicate internal monologue. Is it appropriate or too confusing to the reader to disregard both and just write from the character’s POV mixed in with the author’s POV?

(Forgive me if my question is muddled. This is not my usual hour. I’m just enjoying the fact that the 3 kids are asleep and no one’s bothering me!)

Thank you!
&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp - Julie
 

maestrowork

Re: Dictation Software

Julie, you may want to ask why you have so many internal monologue in your narrative.
 

pixie juice

Re: internal monologue

Julie,

Have you ever read Gerald's Game by Stephen King? He uses A LOT of internal monologue in that book (being that the whole novel is almost entirely in the main character's head), and he uses italics for it. It might be a good example for you.

Julie, you may want to ask why you have so many internal monologue in your narrative

Assuming you've already addressed this question, then I would say use italics. You're right that "she thought" would become obtrusive.
 

James D Macdonald

Re: internal monologue

On the other hand, The Killer Angels uses tons of internal dialog and none of it is italicized.

So ....

Be consistent with yourself, and see how it reads.
 

maestrowork

Re: Displaying Internal Monologue

As long as it's clear that your character is thinking... with first person narrative, you may not have to use italics because it's understood that the narrator is talking/thinking. If it's third person, then you probably need a way to indicate character's internal thoughts apart from narrative. In my novel, the main character has an argument with himself inside his head (a Gollum moment, if you will) and I alternate using italics and normal text. As long as it's clear and consistent, it should work.
 

Pthom

Re: Displaying Internal Monologue

On a break from the day job and without enough time or impetus to work on my own novel, I read Speaker for the Dead by Orson Scott Card.

Not only does he use multiple points of view, most often (but not always) separated by chapter breaks, but he has several characters carry on internal monologues. However, the only time he uses italics is for emphasis, never for these "thinking sprees."

At first, it was a bit confusing to determine what was going on, since Card shows the "thinking" as just another sentence, stuffed in among sentences describing action, or even exposition. By the time I got to the end of the novel, though, Card's technique seemed most natural to me. I guess it works because these "thinking" sentences are always a part of the paragraph dealing directly with the character doing the thinking.
 

Jules Hall

Re: internal monologue

Yes. You don't normally notice it, but reading a third person limited viewpoint piece everything that is reported is what the POV character for the scene is sensing, whether that's real senses, emotions, or deductions made. There really shouldn't be anything in the author's voice in there, so there isn't room to get confused. And the reader will pick that up pretty quickly, even if they're not used to reading the style.

Speaker for the Dead is one of my favourite books, btw. I just love that entire examination-of-alien-culture subgenre. Wish I could come up with a decent plot for one myself, but I've tried and failed. Maybe some time after my first million words :)
 

Andrew Jameson

A few questions

I've been reading this thread for a couple months now, and I'd like to thank Uncle Jim and every one else for their answers. I want to de-lurk for a few questions, though.

1. Rewrites: This question was asked a couple pages ago, but I don't think it was ever answered. When you *re*write, do you take a pass through on each issue individually (e.g., one pass for scene order, then another for adequate description, a third for consistant characterization, etc.) or do you smooth over the rough edges on *everything*, one pass at a time?

2: On agents: It seems like very few markets in my chosen genre (SF/F) accept unagented manuscripts. Meanwhile, most agents want a only query letter, and no one reads manuscripts any more. So it seems like a case of "you need an agent to get a book published, but you need a published book to get an agent." Comments? Do I need to pay my dues by writing short fiction first? Or am I mischaracterizing the issue?

3. Bios: I have plenty of credentials, just none related to fiction writing. Am I correct in assuming that no one cares, and by bio is essentially a blank sheet of paper? What is relevant, in the fiction world?

4: Slushpiles: I've heard plenty of stories, here and elsewhere, about the awesome lack of quality found in slushpiles. But are there ever any gems? Uncle Jim, have you ever found anything worthwhile in a slushpile? Or, rather, the real question is: how often do publishers actually publish out of the slush?

5: On writing: A question on the passive voice. I know that active verbs are preferred. However, I come from a background in technical writing, where the passive voice is often used, and I try to be conscious of my own use of active versus passive. There are times that the passive voice just sounds better to me; however, I'm suspicious of my own sense of the matter. Can you give some examples of situations in writing where the passive voice is preferred, or is it always verboten? Or, used in moderation, is it a style issue?

Thanks!
 

Kate Nepveu

Re: A few questions

A couple of quick notes, leaving the substance to those more experienced--

If you're interested in sf/f and you don't already have a subscription to _Locus_ magazine, you should. Among other things, it lists sales. If the sale is by a "new author," and no agent is listed, I believe it's likely to have been a slush sale.

I don't think anyone has statistics about how often books are pulled out of the slush, and as Uncle Jim and others will tell you, it's the wrong question--it's not a matter of filling quotas. But facts are reassuring things sometimes, so: I don't work in publishing, I just hang out around the edges in the way that many sf fans do, so it's not as though I'm hearing about sales daily. However, I am personally aware of two slush sales that led to hardcover publications: one by a friend, Jo Walton, who has published a total of four books and won the John W. Campbell Best New Writer Award; and another (still forthcoming) by someone I couldn't pick out of a lineup, that an editor was enthusing to me about at a con.

It does actually happen, so if you can put that worry aside and worry instead about making your book as good as it can be. Good luck.
 

JuliePgh

Character's Name: one vs multiple

I’m having a problem with a character’s name. Let’s say my character is Harry Trumble. The world I’ve built is rather formal; use of first names is rare except by close friends/family. I want the reader to identify with the heroine who starts off referring to him as Trumble, but eventually switches to Harry as the relationship evolves. The other characters who interact with Harry Trumble have a formal relationship, therefore using Trumble.

Is switching back and forth from Harry to Trumble a definite “Don’t” of writing?

My inclination is to do the following: Use Trumble for all references, until my heroine is permitted to use Harry, then use Harry for the heroine’s and author’s POV, and only use Trumble in the other characters’ dialogue.

Any advice is appreciated! Thank you!
 

maestrowork

Re: A Brief Commercial Announcement

Julie, as long as you're consistent, I don't see any problem.


----

Andrew, I too came from a technical background (although I don't write SF/F). I understand your issues with active vs. passive voice. The problem is technical writing is a whole different beast (and they're meant to be more "difficult" to read). In fiction, you do try to use active voice whenever you can, even though you're used to passive voice. Basically, you need to use a voice that makes sense for the characters or situations. There are times when passive voice is better, because the POV character is passive. E.g.:

"John was swept away by the river." John is the POV character and he is passive. It does read better than "The river swept John away." However, you may rewrite it so it reads better with active voice -- basically, in fiction, you are telling a story where interesting characters do interest things... if things are "done" to them instead, it makes for a less exciting story. In the above example, you can write it with more excitement:

"The river swell and swallowed John..."

As far as rewrites go, there's no fixed ways. You do what makes sense to you. I gather that since you have a technical background, your method is probably more structured (one pass at a time) and that's fine. The issue is, you don't want to call the draft (2nd, 3rd, etc.) done until you have covered all the basis -- how you do it is a matter of personal choice.

I personally do a macro rewrite to check story flows, chapter structures, character development, etc. Then I do another micro pass to fix technical problems, and rewrite my sentences, cut out excess... then I read it over again to make sure the story still flows well. But that's just me.
 

Kate Nepveu

Re: Character's Name: one vs multiple

No reason why different characters can't use different names to refer to the same character. I've even read one very good novel (_The Last Hot Time_ by John M. Ford) where the point-of-view character starts thinking of *himself* by a different name partway through: it was a very effective way of communicating the character's development.

I wonder, though, if you could explain a bit what you mean by "then use Harry for the heroine’s and author’s POV"? It's the "author's POV" part that I'm wondering about: why would the "author" change the way that the character is referred to?
 
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