More Reproductive Rights Shenanigans - NC Edition

KateSmash

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Senators tacked a suite of new restrictions and regulations pertaining to abortion clinics onto a bill dealing with the application of foreign laws in North Carolina family courts Tuesday.

The measure was unveiled unexpectedly during an unusual late-day committee meeting Tuesday.

[...]

"They're doing it quietly on 4th of July weekend because they've seen what's going on in Texas and know that women will turn out," Melissa Reed, VP of Public Policy for Planned Parenthood Health Systems said, referring to the protests surrounding a similar bill in Texas. She said Planned Parenthood and other pro-choice advocates had no idea the measure would be taken up today.

Lobbyists with nonprofits that have religious or moral purposes, including the Family Policy Council, Christian Action League and N.C. Values Coalition, were in the room for the committee debate and the subsequent Senate floor debate. Senators noted that those lobbyists were given notice of the bill and its contents ahead of time.

Source: WRAL

Basically our lovely General Assembly took a bullshit bill to protect NC from religious fundamentalism and tacked on religious fundamentalism. And passed the second reading of it this evening without any notice to the public.

As you can imagine protests are already being planned for tomorrow. Looks like the Moral Monday movement is adding Wednesday to their schedule this week.

I can't. I'm going to bed. Y'all have fun with this one.
 

Gretad08

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Some of the stuff I read in the link doesn't seem like a problem to me.

LICENSING: The measure would require abortions clinics to go through a licensing process similar outpatient surgical clinics

I can't believe they didn't already have to have the same licensing as an outpatient surgical clinic. Abortion is a pretty serious medical procedure.

CONSCIENCE PROTECTION: The bill would allow any health care provider, not just doctors and nurses, to opt out of providing abortion-related services.

I also don't have a problem with this. There is no reason that a health care provider should be forced to do something that they feel strongly against. Why should anyone be forced to perform something they feel is wrong?

ABORTION FUNDING LIMITS: The bill would prohibit health plans offered on the federal health care exchanges from offering abortion coverage. It would also prohibit state funds from being used for abortions, except to save the life of the mother in case of rape or incest. It would also prohibits city and county health plans from offering abortion coverage more extensive than the coverage offered to state employees. The state health plan does not cover abortions except in cases of rape or incest or to save the life of the mother.

I strongly agree here. This, from the way I'm reading it, says the state can't pay for elective abortions, but will still cover them in cases of rape or incest. If you don't want the government to have a say in your reproductive choices, you certainly shouldn't ask them/your fellow citizens to pick up the tab.

SEX SELECTIVE ABORTIONS: The measure prohibits doctors from performing an abortion if they know the woman seeking it is doing so because of the gender of the baby.
"This is something we see happening across the country," Schaffer said.
But Reed said that was not the case. Doctors cannot determine the sex of a baby until five months of pregnancy without expensive tests she said. While sex-selection abortions are practiced in other parts of the world, they are not common in the U.S., Reed said. The effect the bill, she insisted, would be to create an adversarial relationship between doctors, would could be sued under the measure, and patients. Reed said it could also prompt some doctors to engage in racial profiling against women who are from parts of the world where sex selection abortions are practiced.

Not sure how I feel about this claim, but I think it's a leap to think this bill will cause doctors to begin to racially profile abortion seeking patients. Silly to think that a new bill will make a practicing doctor all of the sudden go "Hey, now I can do this!"


I don't know, maybe I'm reading things differently than everyone else?
 

Celia Cyanide

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I also don't have a problem with this. There is no reason that a health care provider should be forced to do something that they feel strongly against. Why should anyone be forced to perform something they feel is wrong?

"Abortion related services." That's not limited to just performing abortions.
 

Gretad08

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Abortion related services...What does that mean? It seems so vague. So a nurse can say "No I'm not giving that patient an IV b/c she's having an abortion."?

Or does it mean "I'm not treating this hemorrhaging woman b/c her illness is a direct result of an abortion."?
 

Celia Cyanide

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It could mean either of those things, and many more. It's not limited to doctors and nurses, either. People working at the front desk could refuse to help patients.
 

Gretad08

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Hmmmmm, not sure how I feel about it. I still err on the side of agreeing. If a woman has an appointment for a procedure, the doctor who scheduled the appointment certainly isn't going to opt out. I feel this gives people a chance to say "I refuse to take part in any of this activity."

It doesn't sound like it would hinder the patient's ability to complete the procedure. Might upset her to feel judged, but are her feelings more important than the nurse who strongly believes abortion is wrong. It sounds like it will give people the ability to practice without forcing them to participate in something they find highly objectionable.
 

Celia Cyanide

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It doesn't sound like it would hinder the patient's ability to complete the procedure. Might upset her to feel judged, but are her feelings more important than the nurse who strongly believes abortion is wrong. It sounds like it will give people the ability to practice without forcing them to participate in something they find highly objectionable.


Practice what? Why should you work in a clinic that provides abortions if you are so opposed to abortion that you would refuse to do your job? Should vegans get jobs at Burger King and refuse to serve anybody, all the while still demanding to be paid?
 

cornflake

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Some of the stuff I read in the link doesn't seem like a problem to me.

I can't believe they didn't already have to have the same licensing as an outpatient surgical clinic. Abortion is a pretty serious medical procedure.

This is one of the major problems with the Texas bill. No, it's not a pretty serious medical procedure. Where do you get the idea it is? It's decidedly safer than childbirth, for example, so I presume you'd want all birthing centers to be subject to this regulation and you'd want to outlaw home births.

Also, abortion is not necessarily a surgical procedure. Last I saw, something approaching 1/4 were not. This requirement is designed, specifically and exclusively, to shut clinics.

I also don't have a problem with this. There is no reason that a health care provider should be forced to do something that they feel strongly against. Why should anyone be forced to perform something they feel is wrong?

Well, because they're health-care providers, would be the basic answer. They might feel it's wrong to spend an hour trying to save the life of one of the Boston Bombing suspects while their victims lie upstairs. Tough. They might feel it's wrong to treat someone with a smoking-related disease who still smokes. Tough.

However, as someone pointed out, it say abortion-related services, which can mean almost anything, up to and certainly including emergency services related to complications from an abortion.

I strongly agree here. This, from the way I'm reading it, says the state can't pay for elective abortions, but will still cover them in cases of rape or incest. If you don't want the government to have a say in your reproductive choices, you certainly shouldn't ask them/your fellow citizens to pick up the tab.

Really? Private health plans - that people may be purchasing out of their own pay - cannot cover abortions and you strongly agree?

City or county health plans, from citiies or counties that wish to offer more extensive coverage, cannot?

I'm just going to leave the blatant hypocrisy of covering abortions in cases of rape or incest sitting here on its own.

Not sure how I feel about this claim, but I think it's a leap to think this bill will cause doctors to begin to racially profile abortion seeking patients. Silly to think that a new bill will make a practicing doctor all of the sudden go "Hey, now I can do this!"

How about anti-choice doctors who work in hospitals that offer abortion services? Might they not decide that they think or they maybe think they heard something so that Indian couple over there shouldn't be able to get the abortion?
 

Gretad08

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I see what you're saying. I wasn't thinking of abortion clinics, I was thinking of gyno offices and hospitals. Places whose primary function wasn't abortion services, but who might occasionally perform such procedures.

ETA: This was meant for Celia.
 

cornflake

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I see what you're saying. I wasn't thinking of abortion clinics, I was thinking of gyno offices and hospitals. Places whose primary function wasn't abortion services, but who might occasionally perform such procedures.

ETA: This was meant for Celia.

If that were the case, the bill would likely shut every gynecologist's office in the state or prevent them from ever providing any abortion services, which they don't normally do but ...
 

Gretad08

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This is one of the major problems with the Texas bill. No, it's not a pretty serious medical procedure. Where do you get the idea it is? It's decidedly safer than childbirth, for example, so I presume you'd want all birthing centers to be subject to this regulation and you'd want to outlaw home births.

Also, abortion is not necessarily a surgical procedure. Last I saw, something approaching 1/4 were not. This requirement is designed, specifically and exclusively, to shut clinics.



Well, because they're health-care providers, would be the basic answer. They might feel it's wrong to spend an hour trying to save the life of one of the Boston Bombing suspects while their victims lie upstairs. Tough. They might feel it's wrong to treat someone with a smoking-related disease who still smokes. Tough.

However, as someone pointed out, it say abortion-related services, which can mean almost anything, up to and certainly including emergency services related to complications from an abortion.



Really? Private health plans - that people may be purchasing out of their own pay - cannot cover abortions and you strongly agree?

City or county health plans, from citiies or counties that wish to offer more extensive coverage, cannot?

I'm just going to leave the blatant hypocrisy of covering abortions in cases of rape or incest sitting here on its own.



How about anti-choice doctors who work in hospitals that offer abortion services? Might they not decide that they think or they maybe think they heard something so that Indian couple over there shouldn't be able to get the abortion?

First of all, no need to get angry about some of my previous thoughts. I'm just trying to wade through some of my initial reactions from reading the OP's link. I'm not saying I agree with everything, or even that I fully understand it. Just trying to have a discussion. Please don't talk to me like I'm a terrible person. I'm not.

Yes, I do believe abortion is a serious medical procedure. I didn't just pull that idea out of thin air. I'm not an idiot. People die from abortions from time to time. Don't put words in my mouth about outlawing things. Yes I believe that people who are charging someone to perform a medical service should have the proper licensing. I don't find this to be a controversial opinion. Home birth is a little different. If you have a midwife there, she has to have licensing and certification.

I do strongly agree that private health care plans don't have to cover abortions. It's up to the company to decide if they should cover it, and it's up to the consumer to choose a plan that includes what they think they may need. Are you saying the bill forces them to deny coverage? I read it as it allows them the choice to cover it or not. Maybe I read it wrong?

As far as it being hypocrisy to cover incest or rape related abortions. IMO, it's compromise. I think it's a way to give concessions to both sides. I do not believe that any state or government funded entity should pay for elective abortions. This bill (unless I read it wrong, which is possible) says they will pay for an abortion in cases of rape, incest, or to protect the life of the mother. An elective abortion, well, that can be on your own dime.
 

Celia Cyanide

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I see what you're saying. I wasn't thinking of abortion clinics, I was thinking of gyno offices and hospitals. Places whose primary function wasn't abortion services, but who might occasionally perform such procedures.

Regardless of whether abortion is the primary function of the facility or not, (it's not the primary function of most Planned Parenthoods, either) people should not be allowed to refuse to do their job without consequence. Doctors who are opposed to abortion can simply choose not to be abortion providers. But they should still be obligated to give patients accurate and truthful information, and give referrals to patients who want abortions. And people who are not doctors and work in clinics or hospitals should not be treating patients any differently because they are having an abortion.
 

KateSmash

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*cough* Most abortions conducted in NC are medical. Meaning you take one pill, wait approximately 48 hours, then take a second pill to make the uterus contract to expell the embryo/fetus and uterine lining. It is not, in any way, a surgical procedure and usually doesn't have to be attended by a physician.

And the main issue, however one might feel about abortions aside, is that the NC State Senate tacked this onto the end of a wholly unrelated bill - one already much criticized for its useless protection from "Sharia Law" (gosh I can't even say that without shuddering at the stupidity) - at the 11th hour and rushed to a vote just before a holiday recess.

Even if you can, somehow, agree with the what, I can't see anyone agreeing with the how.
 

Roxxsmom

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It doesn't sound like it would hinder the patient's ability to complete the procedure. Might upset her to feel judged, but are her feelings more important than the nurse who strongly believes abortion is wrong. It sounds like it will give people the ability to practice without forcing them to participate in something they find highly objectionable.

If you don't want to perform abortion related services, then you probably shouldn't be working in a health care center that provides them.

This could get ridiculous too, since by this logic, medical staff should be allowed to opt out of assisting with any procedure, treatment or therapy they have moral qualms about.

What about birth control? What about cosmetic procedures? What about therapies or treatments that were tested on animals? What about treatments that (arguably) prolong life without improving quality of life? What about therapies that save premature infants who will likely be plagued with serious health problems and possibly cost the taxpayers money all their lives? What about fertility treatments? What about organ transplants (most religions endorse these, but a few religions or cultures do not). What about vaccination?
 

Maythe

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The problem with the rape exclusion is you're asking a rape victim to prove she was raped in order to access necessary care.

I can't remember where I saw it but I remember reading a study that showed that women who had been refused abortions were typically in a worse position a year later - poorer, worse mental health, more victims of abuse etc. No shit, sherlock. Us wimmin actually know what is sensible for our lives. Odd, that.
 

cornflake

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First of all, no need to get angry about some of my previous thoughts. I'm just trying to wade through some of my initial reactions from reading the OP's link. I'm not saying I agree with everything, or even that I fully understand it. Just trying to have a discussion. Please don't talk to me like I'm a terrible person. I'm not.

Yes, I do believe abortion is a serious medical procedure. I didn't just pull that idea out of thin air. I'm not an idiot. People die from abortions from time to time. Don't put words in my mouth about outlawing things. Yes I believe that people who are charging someone to perform a medical service should have the proper licensing. I don't find this to be a controversial opinion. Home birth is a little different. If you have a midwife there, she has to have licensing and certification.

I do strongly agree that private health care plans don't have to cover abortions. It's up to the company to decide if they should cover it, and it's up to the consumer to choose a plan that includes what they think they may need. Are you saying the bill forces them to deny coverage? I read it as it allows them the choice to cover it or not. Maybe I read it wrong?

As far as it being hypocrisy to cover incest or rape related abortions. IMO, it's compromise. I think it's a way to give concessions to both sides. I do not believe that any state or government funded entity should pay for elective abortions. This bill (unless I read it wrong, which is possible) says they will pay for an abortion in cases of rape, incest, or to protect the life of the mother. An elective abortion, well, that can be on your own dime.

You said very clearly that you agreed, even strongly agreed, with most of those things. If you're not sure what something means or are just trying to garner information, feel free to ask, but if you say you agree with X, I'm going to assume you agree with X.

You're free to believe abortion is a serious medical procedure, but it's kind of not. I asked where you got that idea - you said you didn't pull it out of thin air. Ok, where then did you get the idea? It is, again, less dangerous than childbirth. Yes, people have died from abortions. More people die from childbirth, by FAR. People die from drinking water. That's not a barometer. I put no words in your mouth; I asked you, if you believe abortion clinics should have the same requirements as a surgical center, because you believe abortion to be so dangerous, would you not have that same requirement for birthing centers and outlaw homebirths?

No, btw, midwives don't have to have licensing and certification. You can find a midwife who has a certificate from a program (which may or may not have been based in a medical facility or involved training from anyone with a medical license), sure. You can also find a midwife with no such certification. You can use a doula, You can have a baby alone. You can have a baby in a birth center, many of which do not come close to having the medical technology available in abortion clinics.

Also, again, last I heard, something approaching 1/4 of abortions are not surgical. How, please, is it a serious medical procedure?

Yes, that bill forces any plan, private or otherwise, that is involved in federal exchange programs, which can include large private plans, to restrict funding for abortion to the NC state plan's level. That's what it says anyway.

I see it as nothing but hypocritical to say 'abortion is murder and it's wrong, unless the father was a rapist, then it's fine to murder the 'baby.' I have zero respect for that stance; I prefer consistency, even if I disagree with the stance.

The point of that surgical center requirement, same as in Texas, is to shut clinics. It requires stuff that clinics don't have and have no reason to have, and that dr.'s offices don't either. Thus a dr. providing even non-surgical abortion would either have to stop or the office couldn't operate.

Note, just btw, that 'health care provider' is not limited to doctors and nurses, not that it'd be bad enough if it were. A pharmacist is likely considered a health care provider.
 

DancingMaenid

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I can't believe they didn't already have to have the same licensing as an outpatient surgical clinic. Abortion is a pretty serious medical procedure.

Like others have pointed out, many abortions aren't that serious of medical procedures, at all. A lot of abortions simply involve taking some pills--which is hardly surgery.

From cases I'm familiar with, if a patient needs more complex surgical care, the abortion clinic will refer them to a hospital. Abortion clinics generally only do relatively safe outpatient procedures.

Yes, abortion carries some risk. But so does routine dental work.

Another potential issue, which I'm not sure is at play in NC or not, is that preferential treatment is sometimes given to some types of clinics over others. For example, in my state, Virginia, a law like this was recently passed, and some non-abortion clinics were grandfathered in. So, some clinics don't have to follow the new laws, but abortion clinics do. If the issue is truly with patient safety, there's no need to focus specifically on abortion clinics.

I also don't have a problem with this. There is no reason that a health care provider should be forced to do something that they feel strongly against. Why should anyone be forced to perform something they feel is wrong?

Because they're healthcare providers. If you're unable to sometimes put your own feelings aside for the well-being of your patients, healthcare isn't a good field to go into. There are a lot of situations where a healthcare provider might not want to do something. For example, someone might have a do not resuscitate order, but the doctor strongly believes in doing everything possible to save a life. Or a doctor might have to treat a horrible criminal. Someone who is opposed to organ donation might die while under the care of a doctor who believes donation is a moral imperative. In all of these cases, the patient's well-being or wishes take precedence over the doctor's individual moral beliefs.

I strongly agree here. This, from the way I'm reading it, says the state can't pay for elective abortions, but will still cover them in cases of rape or incest. If you don't want the government to have a say in your reproductive choices, you certainly shouldn't ask them/your fellow citizens to pick up the tab.

You could say this about anything, though. My question is, why is it okay for the government to single out a particular legal medical procedure like this, if it's willing to provide healthcare coverage for everything else?

I feel like you're getting into a question of whether or not socialized medicine, in general, is a good idea. That's a separate debate. But the government already provides some healthcare coverage through programs like medicaid. So why shouldn't abortion be covered?

Hmmmmm, not sure how I feel about it. I still err on the side of agreeing. If a woman has an appointment for a procedure, the doctor who scheduled the appointment certainly isn't going to opt out. I feel this gives people a chance to say "I refuse to take part in any of this activity."

It doesn't sound like it would hinder the patient's ability to complete the procedure. Might upset her to feel judged, but are her feelings more important than the nurse who strongly believes abortion is wrong. It sounds like it will give people the ability to practice without forcing them to participate in something they find highly objectionable.

The biggest risk isn't when it comes to women who have appointments for abortions. Yes, if you have an appointment, it's safe to say that the doctor is okay with providing the service.

The biggest risk, I think, is when it comes to emergencies and traumatic situations. If a rape victim goes in to the hospital and happens to get a doctor who doesn't believe in emergency contraception (which isn't the same as abortion, but is still opposed by a lot of people, anyway), then it's possible the doctor won't even inform her of the option or offer to refer her to someone who can give her a prescription. And she may not be in a good frame of mind to think of it herself or demand proper care.

If a woman goes into the ER with pregnancy-related complications, and is denied the option of having an abortion, it may not be easy for her to go to another hospital to have one.

Another issue is that finding an abortion provider in the first place can be unduly prohibitive for many people, especially those with low incomes. If there's no abortion clinic in your town, there's no guarantee that you'll be able to afford to travel to another town to have the procedure done. That means travel costs and maybe even taking extra time off work.
 

Don

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Dang. Another state that voted for people who want to control the relationship between a woman and her doctor, tell her what procedures she may have, and withhold taxpayer funding if it's a procedure they don't want performed.

It's gotta be something in the water.
 

muravyets

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I'm just grabbing a seat here because I'd also like to know why, if people should not be allowed to use their privately paid insurance to get an elective abortion if their insurer participates in a publicly funded health care program, why should anyone be able to get coverage for any non-emergency medical care?

This is in reference to the objection about the public dime versus the facts that this bill affects private insurers and does not affect other kinds of care.
 

Myrealana

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Abortion related services...What does that mean? It seems so vague. So a nurse can say "No I'm not giving that patient an IV b/c she's having an abortion."?

Or does it mean "I'm not treating this hemorrhaging woman b/c her illness is a direct result of an abortion."?
Yes, it could mean both of those things.

As well as "I'm not going to fill this prescription for emergency contraception even though I am the only pharmacy in town."

Even "I'm not going to fill this normal birth control prescription because it might cause a fertilized egg not to implant."
 

Myrealana

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Regardless of whether abortion is the primary function of the facility or not, (it's not the primary function of most Planned Parenthoods, either) people should not be allowed to refuse to do their job without consequence. Doctors who are opposed to abortion can simply choose not to be abortion providers. But they should still be obligated to give patients accurate and truthful information, and give referrals to patients who want abortions. And people who are not doctors and work in clinics or hospitals should not be treating patients any differently because they are having an abortion.

This.
So long as you aren't being asked to do anything illegal, you don't get to pick and choose which parts of your assigned job duties you will and won't do.

If you can't or won't do your job, you deserve the opportunity to find a new one - on your own time. And don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.

I don't get to look at the processing in our company and say "I won't run reports for customers in Malaysia or Indonesia because I oppose human rights violations in those countries." I can do my job, and produce reports that help companies that may be participating in something I oppose, or I can find a new job.
 

Alpha Echo

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Greta, are you perhaps saying that abortion is a major procedure because of the potential emotional impact rather than the actual medical procedure?
 

thebloodfiend

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Greta, are you perhaps saying that abortion is a major procedure because of the potential emotional impact rather than the actual medical procedure?
If potential emotional impact were a factor, taking blood from kids would be a major procedure. It certainly traumatized me when I was younger and definitely gave me a complex when it comes to needles and vaccinations and flu shots. I'm not kidding. When I weigh flu (which I get every year) vs getting the shot, I typically pick the flu. Which really isn't a rational decision on my part.

Whether or not abortion impacts you emotionally varies from person to person, correct? The chemical procedure would not bother me. I assume it's slightly more painful than Plan B. But that's just me.
 

Alpha Echo

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If potential emotional impact were a factor, taking blood from kids would be a major procedure. It certainly traumatized me when I was younger and definitely gave me a complex when it comes to needles and vaccinations and flu shots. I'm not kidding. When I weigh flu (which I get every year) vs getting the shot, I typically pick the flu. Which really isn't a rational decision on my part.

Whether or not abortion impacts you emotionally varies from person to person, correct? The chemical procedure would not bother me. I assume it's slightly more painful than Plan B. But that's just me.


I agree with you. I was just wondering if maybe Greta was saying it was "major" because of how she may feel about it emotionally.

I think of someone like my mother who probably knows NOTHING about the actual medical or chemical procedures but would emphatically tell you that it a major procedure because she's against abortions under any and all circumstances.