Does the punishment fit the crime in this school situation?

emax100

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http://reason.com/blog/2014/09/18/school-insanity-alert-cops-called-becaus

News sources disagree on the timeline. WISN reports that a school official checked the car, noticed the knives, and then called police; TMJ 4 claims that the police were called to the school because of the smoking incident and then discovered the weapons after searching the car. The latter account makes the authorities look worse since it establishes the act of smoking, rather than the discovery of knives, as the impetus for calling the police.
I contacted both the police and the school to clear up the confusion and learn more about what happened—neither office responded immediately.
Regardless of which way it went down, Chiers is now facing two criminal charges for bringing weapons onto school grounds. He has also been suspended and will likely be expelled, in keeping with the school's zero tolerance policies.
It's not even a possibility that Chiers was actually a danger to the school: police and district officials questioned him and all agreed that this is simply a kid who likes hunting. He said he was storing the rifle for a friend and was planning a trip to the shooting range. Nobody disputes that. He shouldn't have been smoking, and he shouldn't have stored his hunting gear in his car, but that's all he did wrong.
Now I imagine many, if not most, writers here will feel some sort of consequence is called for in this situation so the question is do you feel a lengthy suspension and an expulsion is the right call?

And, do you feel this is as deserving of punishment as the kids who made the rape joke photo in the other thread?
 

cornflake

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http://reason.com/blog/2014/09/18/school-insanity-alert-cops-called-becaus

Now I imagine many, if not most, writers here will feel some sort of consequence is called for in this situation so the question is do you feel a lengthy suspension and an expulsion is the right call?

And, do you feel this is as deserving of punishment as the kids who made the rape joke photo in the other thread?

I went to the news sources, as that blog post is just ridiculous.

Suspension and expulsion? Try expulsion and some time in the clink. Christ on a cracker, the little freak didn't forget he had a pocket knife. He had enough crap in his car to go join ISIS.

I have no earthly idea what he was planning or considering doing with that stuff, but I don't buy he was holding the rifle 'for a friend,' any more than I'd buy it with the 1,000 other things kids are just 'holding for a friend.'

Also - a bayonet? I admit I'm not up on the newfangled hunting happenings, but a bayonet? Belongs in jail - no way he "innocently" brought all that mess to school.
 

emax100

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He should be punished for smoking and for bringing weapons on-campus, but this "zero-tolerance" crap is not and has never been a sensible response to what can be varied and context-dependent, and complicated situation.

Some form of in-school suspension for a week or so ought to cut it.
I was thinking that some sort of brief in school suspension and a legit psych evaluation and some mental health appointments could be in order, or at least that you can make a valid case for that as the consequence. I think many of these cases need to be treated more as mental health and counseling issues rather than law enforcement issues.
 
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Don

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I'm sure glad nobody looked in my car back when I was in high school. Oh, wait, now that I think about it, the Phys Ed teacher was a regular at the range, so he probably did at one time or another. I wonder why he didn't have me committed? Maybe because late teens were treated like responsible near-adults once upon a time, instead of mentally-deficient wards of the state with latent violent tendencies simmering just below the surface, ready to erupt at the slightest provocation?

Here's a question: WHY have late teens become mentally-deficient wards of the state with latent violent tendencies simmering just below the surface, ready to erupt at the slightest provocation?
 
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clintl

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If he had all that stuff in his car, I agree with the punishment. This was no innocent mistake, and he needs to be gone from that school.

And in-school suspension is a totally inappropriate alternative. He needs to kept off campus for a while.
 

cmhbob

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In fairness to the school, they may not have had a lot of choice in the matter. A lot of the ZT insanity is codified in state law, so the schools have to expel. Doesn't make sense to me all the time, especially when they try to expel before/without having a real investigation, but that's the law quite often.

Seems like a lot of times, there's a bunch of "Ready! Bang! Aim!" in lawmaking.
 

Cyia

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Beyond the smoking and number of knives, bayonets are illegal in most states, aren't they? What are the laws in Wisconsin?
 

clintl

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And, do you feel this is as deserving of punishment as the kids who made the rape joke photo in the other thread?

Far, far more deserving. The kids in the other thread were making a stupid, tasteless joke. They need some consequences and need to understand why it was so inappropriate. Bringing weapons to school is a whole different level of rules violation.
 

backslashbaby

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It fits, absolutely, imho. Unless I'm mistaken, he's not legally old enough to have sole possession of that gun (with hundred of rounds of ammo!) anyway. I wonder if he'll get a weapons charge by the cops, too?

On a school campus, I'd be terribly afraid of some idiot stealing the gun and ammo anyway. Back when high school kids had rifles in their windows, other kids weren't nearly so intrigued by guns because they were so commonplace. Now too many kids think of the Columbine shooters and not deer hunters when they think of guns, and the loser shooter types really have changed how guns need to be treated at schools, imho.
 

cmhbob

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Bayonets are basically just very long knives. Why should they be treated any differently than machetes, katanas, or similar blades? Some states may have age restrictions, but as to being outright illegal? I'd doubt it.

DISCLAIMER: I DON'T KNOW EVERYTHING THERE IS TO KNOW ABOUT KNIVES IN THE 50 UNITED STATES, OR UNDER FEDERAL LAW.
 
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Absolutely no officials disputed that they were for hunting or a shooting range. Criminal charges are ridiculous. So is expulsion. He should not have brought them on campus, that was a dumb move on his part.

If there is a specific law in his jurisdiction requiring some criminal charge, then I suppose legally they have to charge him. Doesn't make it any less dumb, though.
 

emax100

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In fairness to the school, they may not have had a lot of choice in the matter. A lot of the ZT insanity is codified in state law, so the schools have to expel. Doesn't make sense to me all the time, especially when they try to expel before/without having a real investigation, but that's the law quite often.

Seems like a lot of times, there's a bunch of "Ready! Bang! Aim!" in lawmaking.
You are right about that and I forgot about that when i first posted this. States and the feds see so many things as purely about law enforcement when it should be about mental health and counseling issues as well. This is not at all restricted to the schools as you pointed out. It needs to be evaluated on all levels because again, it really does make us less free and does not make us any more safe.
 

Cyia

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Bayonets are basically just very long knives. Why should they be treated any differently than machetes, katanas, or similar blades? Some states may have age restrictions, but as to being outright illegal? I'd doubt it.

DISCLAIMER: I DON'T KNOW EVERYTHING THERE IS TO KNOW ABOUT KNIVES IN THE 50 UNITED STATES, OR UNDER FEDERAL LAW.

Legally, they're not codified as knifes due to the triangular shape and triple bladed edge.
 

emax100

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It fits, absolutely, imho. Unless I'm mistaken, he's not legally old enough to have sole possession of that gun (with hundred of rounds of ammo!) anyway. I wonder if he'll get a weapons charge by the cops, too?

On a school campus, I'd be terribly afraid of some idiot stealing the gun and ammo anyway. Back when high school kids had rifles in their windows, other kids weren't nearly so intrigued by guns because they were so commonplace. Now too many kids think of the Columbine shooters and not deer hunters when they think of guns, and the loser shooter types really have changed how guns need to be treated at schools, imho.
I actually do understand this sentiment. There are floods of awful, genuinely sociopathic people whom we try in vain to integrate into society and how they view guns has certainly changed how many of us view guns. But look, at one time if a kid had a hunting rifle in his car, he could bring it out, show it to the principal and they could compare and take notes on it. Now we have people saying he belongs in jail simply because he had it in his car and it was discovered during a police search. I really do not like the idea that we just have to accept this because it is simply the way it has to be.
 
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I am opposed for the most part to civilian ownership of guns. But there was clearly no intent to commit a crime here, violent or otherwise. I don't think he needs a psych evaluation either.


However, here is the law in Wisconsin on guns in a school zone: http://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/statutes/statutes/948/605


If the gun was loaded (I hope he wasn't that stupid), or not encased, he's is technically guilty of a class I felony.
 

clintl

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I am opposed for the most part to civilian ownership of guns. But there was clearly no intent to commit a crime here, violent or otherwise. I don't think he needs a psych evaluation either.

If he knew the weapons were in the car (and it appears he admitted it), and he intentionally drove the car to school, then he intended to commit a crime. And if he didn't know he was doing that, he's a complete dumbass.
 

emax100

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I am opposed for the most part to civilian ownership of guns. But there was clearly no intent to commit a crime here, violent or otherwise. I don't think he needs a psych evaluation either.


However, here is the law in Wisconsin on guns in a school zone: http://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/statutes/statutes/948/605


If the gun was loaded (I hope he wasn't that stupid), or not encased, he's is technically guilty of a class I felony.
I hope so too, though i get the feeling if it was loaded it would have for sure been mentioned somewhere in the original story so unless evidence points otherwise I presume the gun was not loaded and was encased.
 

cmhbob

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Legally, they're not codified as knifes due to the triangular shape and triple bladed edge.

Only certain bayonets look like that, mostly US Civil War vintage stuff, I'd guess. The US military hasn't used something shaped that way for close to 100 years. In fact, I'd guess no bayonet has looked like that in that long. Certainly the USGI bayonets from WW2 didn't. Neither did the ones I had in the Army. They're just big long knives.
 

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Bayonets are basically just very long knives. Why should they be treated any differently than machetes, katanas, or similar blades? Some states may have age restrictions, but as to being outright illegal? I'd doubt it.

DISCLAIMER: I DON'T KNOW EVERYTHING THERE IS TO KNOW ABOUT KNIVES IN THE 50 UNITED STATES, OR UNDER FEDERAL LAW.

Some states have a limit on blade length for an open carry (including sheathed) knife.
 

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I'm sure glad nobody looked in my car back when I was in high school. Oh, wait, now that I think about it, the Phys Ed teacher was a regular at the range, so he probably did at one time or another. I wonder why he didn't have me committed? Maybe because late teens were treated like responsible near-adults once upon a time, instead of mentally-deficient wards of the state with latent violent tendencies simmering just below the surface, ready to erupt at the slightest provocation?

Here's a question: WHY have late teens become mentally-deficient wards of the state with latent violent tendencies simmering just below the surface, ready to erupt at the slightest provocation?

You think that an adult who brought a gun and a huge knife and 400 rounds of ammunition onto school property wouldn't be facing consequences?

I don't think age is the issue, here.
 

Don

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You think that an adult who brought a gun and a huge knife and 400 rounds of ammunition onto school property wouldn't be facing consequences?

I don't think age is the issue, here.
Agreed. I don't think age is the issue. The age we live in is the issue. The presumption of evil intent and widespread hoplophobia are the real issues, neither of which will ever be addressed in the current climate.
 

Amadan

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I went to the news sources, as that blog post is just ridiculous.

Suspension and expulsion? Try expulsion and some time in the clink. Christ on a cracker, the little freak didn't forget he had a pocket knife. He had enough crap in his car to go join ISIS.


That is a wee bit hyperbolic. Allow me to point out a few things.

A lot of people see reports of someone owning "hundreds of rounds" of ammunition and think it's evidence of some sinister scheme.

I have stockpiled, in my very own home, about a thousand rounds in various calibers. And my stockpile would be considering pretty skimpy by most serious shooters.

It is not because I plan to go on a shooting spree, or even because I am prepping for the apocalypse. It's because ammunition is expensive, and when you go to the range, you can easily shoot several hundred rounds in a few hours. So the most economical way to buy it is in bulk.

A bayonet, while obviously not very useful for hunting, is not necessarily a sign of sinister intent. A lot of rifles have bayonet fittings, and yes, people like to mount bayonets on their rifles mostly because they "look cool." It's rather silly for almost all practical purposes, IMO, but so are throwing stars and nunchuks. (Which are also, absurdly, illegal in some jurisdictions.)

As for hunting knives - most hunters probably have a fairly large collection of knives.

This kid was stupid for bringing his guns to school, but in many parts of the country (where hunting is popular) this used to be (maybe still is) not uncommon.

Unless there's a lot more to this story, it seems very unlikely that this kid was anything more than a dumb teen who thought he could get away with leaving the gun in his truck to go shooting after school.
 
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cornflake

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Absolutely no officials disputed that they were for hunting or a shooting range. Criminal charges are ridiculous. So is expulsion. He should not have brought them on campus, that was a dumb move on his part.

If there is a specific law in his jurisdiction requiring some criminal charge, then I suppose legally they have to charge him. Doesn't make it any less dumb, though.

They don't know what they were for - they know what he said.

I actually do understand this sentiment. There are floods of awful, genuinely sociopathic people whom we try in vain to integrate into society and how they view guns has certainly changed how many of us view guns. But look, at one time if a kid had a hunting rifle in his car, he could bring it out, show it to the principal and they could compare and take notes on it. Now we have people saying he belongs in jail simply because he had it in his car and it was discovered during a police search. I really do not like the idea that we just have to accept this because it is simply the way it has to be.

A hunting rifle would also lead to charges, but this wasn't a hunting rifle. This was multiple weapons - knives, guns, ammo, a bayonet, some of which were hidden in his car. That's not 'Bubba forgot his rifle.' He admitted he knew what he was doing and that it was wrong.

If he knew the weapons were in the car (and it appears he admitted it), and he intentionally drove the car to school, then he intended to commit a crime. And if he didn't know he was doing that, he's a complete dumbass.

Indeedy.

That is a wee bit hyperbolic. Allow me to point out a few things.

A lot of people see reports of someone owning "hundreds of rounds" of ammunition and think it's evidence of some sinister scheme.

I have stockpiled, in my very own home, about a thousand rounds in various calibers. And my stockpile would be considering pretty skimpy by most serious shooters.

It is not because I plan to go on a shooting spree, or even because I am prepping for the apocalypse. It's because ammunition is expensive, and when you go to the range, you can easily shoot several hundred rounds in a few hours. So the most economical way to buy it is in bulk.

A bayonet, while obviously not very useful for hunting, is not necessarily a sign of sinister intent. A lot of rifles have bayonet fittings, and yes, people like to mount bayonets on their rifles mostly because they "look cool." It's rather silly for almost all practical purposes, IMO, but so are throwing stars and nunchuks. (Which are also, absurdly, illegal in some jurisdictions.)

As for hunting knives - most hunters probably have a fairly large collection of knives.

This kid was stupid for bringing his guns to school, but in many parts of the country (where hunting is popular) this used to be (maybe still is) not uncommon.

Unless there's a lot more to this story, it seems very unlikely that this kid was anything more than a dumb teen who thought he could get away with leaving the gun in his truck to go shooting after school.

Why you have ammo isn't necessarily why anyone else has ammo.

Neither I nor anyone else here has any idea what he was doing or why. We know what he supposedly said.

The whole 'hunters have... lots of knives/lots of ammo/etc.,' thing - do they normally carry it all in their car? This isn't about 'he had ammo!' It's about he had 400 rounds, a lot of knives, a rifle, apparently other guns, etc., all in his car, some of it secreted, that he brought to school.
 

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It is too much of a danger to others to think that having hunting gear in the car is not a serious threat, but he is a kid and we are adults.

When we were kids, we didn't think things through either.


Judgement from those involved should determine if it is appropriate to
take the extreme measures or make it a teaching moment.