• Guest please check The Index before starting a thread.

Blue Ridge Literary Agency (Dawn Dowdle)

Christine N.

haz a shiny new book cover
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
7,705
Reaction score
1,336
Location
Where the Wild Things Are
Website
www.christine-norris.com
FWIW, that conversation was about a single query, mostly and, as I said, was a whole conversation with two other people. You only get 140 characters per tweet. Most of them were answers to questions about the query. You also did not see the replies with the other 'war stories' that those two individuals sent me. Most queries I see are pretty good, or at least have the required elements.

Again, this thread is not about me or what I tweet.
 

Stacia Kane

Girl Detective
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 23, 2006
Messages
8,142
Reaction score
2,668
Location
In cahoots with the other boo-birds
Website
www.staciakane.com
If you have questions, please just PM me. I hate this thread. It gives me a headache. I feel like a dope talking about things I don't know. And I know contradicting Stacia is really bad for my karma.

You're not contradicting me, sweetheart, and if you were you're perfectly free to have a different opinion on anything you like, so don't worry about it (you're also not a dope, so stop that). My point wasn't that agents don't edit/offer editing suggestions--mine certainly did/does--but that sending a ms to a professional paid editor is not "an important step towards agent representation."

See, the problem with that line is that it implies that all mss must be professionally edited before submission. And the fact that the line is on what seems to be the "official" blog of a writing group led by a literary agent is troubling, because it's just not true. Most mss aren't professionally edited before submission to agents (or editors if the author is going for the straight-to-the-publisher option); mine certainly wasn't. I don't know of any that were, actually.

Is editing important? Absolutely. But a writer should be able to edit themselves; it's just not, or shouldn't be, necessary to pay for editing like that.

I'm sure you're pleased with the edit Ms. Dowdle did for you, and that's great. I loved the editorial suggestions my agent made before my book went on submission. Editing is good; we could all use another eye on our work. But I'm also sure that you were perfectly capable of getting your own work into great, submittal-ready shape, and didn't need to pay an editor to help you before you could even submit it, you know?



I totally dig Stacia and wished she lived in range of my binoculars.

:eek:
 

Erin

Listening to my other selves
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 3, 2007
Messages
1,638
Reaction score
363
Location
California
Website
www.erinrichards.com
In case anyone's interested, Dawn reported 4 sales on PM this week (I've never heard of these publishers):

Rhiannon Ellis's BONDED IN BRAZIL ... to Camel Press, for publication in March 2011.

Sylvia May's THE UNRAVELING OF ABBY SETTEL ... to Turquoise Morning Press, for publication in September 2011.

Dutch Henry's WE'LL HAVE THE SUMMER ... to Camel Press, for publication in March 2011.

Mary Billiter's NOT MY KID ... to Camel Press, for publication in March 2011.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Little1

Hakuna Matata
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 28, 2010
Messages
1,298
Reaction score
639
Location
york, PA
Hum, this list dose not inspire me to query her. Turquoise Morning dose not require an agent to submit to them.... so why would you need an agent?

Camel Press .... goggled them and well... I was not impressed by them. I got the feeling it is a POD company.
 

profen4

Banned
Spammer
Joined
Apr 25, 2009
Messages
1,694
Reaction score
186
Location
The Great White North
Hum, this list dose not inspire me to query her. Turquoise Morning dose not require an agent to submit to them.... so why would you need an agent?

Bolding mine.

I see this a lot. As in, if the agent only has sales to places that accept unsolicited submissions, that agent must not be very good. I know nothing about Turquoise or Camel Press, (or this agent, for that matter) but being open to unsolicited submissions does not make them poor sales. I think we all know that Sourcebooks, Penguin, Tor, Daw,.... I could go on, all accept submissions directly from authors. They are also places agents sub to all the time.

I'm just saying, being closed to submissions from authors is not the benchmark of top shelf presses.
 

Christine N.

haz a shiny new book cover
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
7,705
Reaction score
1,336
Location
Where the Wild Things Are
Website
www.christine-norris.com
Those three publishers you mention all have books in stores across the country and all offer professional level advances. When most of us here say 'you don't need an agent to submit', we mean they are POD or micropresses, which do not offer advances and which do not require an agent to negotiate the contract. Maybe that should be more clear.

Those sales do not a)inspire confidence in the agency or b) really mean a whole lot to the industry. None of those books will probably sell over 1,000 (and I'm being VERY generous with that number). Any bigger publisher who reads her credits will not be impressed, and may even not take her seriously or even answer her if she calls. It may not be nice, but that's the business.
 

profen4

Banned
Spammer
Joined
Apr 25, 2009
Messages
1,694
Reaction score
186
Location
The Great White North
When most of us here say 'you don't need an agent to submit', we mean they are POD or micropresses, which do not offer advances and which do not require an agent to negotiate the contract. Maybe that should be more clear.

Yeah, it should be more clear. Because there is a significant difference between small press open to submissions from authors, and a POD or electronic book-mill that gets no sales (or next to no sales). There are plenty of "small presses" open to submission from authors that get sales in the tens of thousands (of units) for their titles, even the hundreds of thousands, and these presses are submitted to by agents.
 
Last edited:

Christine N.

haz a shiny new book cover
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
7,705
Reaction score
1,336
Location
Where the Wild Things Are
Website
www.christine-norris.com
And I'd venture to say that the competition at Penguin is much tougher than it is at Second Wind. They receive THOUSANDS of subs, many from agents, while the micropresses receive far fewer. Not that these little guys can't put out a good book, they just work on a much smaller scale. And I'll tell you that while you definitely can submit to Penguin or Tor without an agent, your wait time will be MUCH longer than if you have an agent and can skip to the front of the line.

To be an agent and have a sale to a micropress really isn't saying much in the bigger picture. As an author, sure, it means something you got that publishing contract. As an agent, you didn't really open any doors for your client that they couldn't open themselves, so how did you actually HELP the client?
 
Last edited:

profen4

Banned
Spammer
Joined
Apr 25, 2009
Messages
1,694
Reaction score
186
Location
The Great White North
And I'd venture to say that the competition at Penguin is much tougher than it is at Second Wind. They receive THOUSANDS of subs, many from agents, while the micropresses receive far fewer. Not that these little guys can't put out a good book, they just work on a much smaller scale. And I'll tell you that while you definitely can submit to Penguin or Tor without an agent, your wait time will be MUCH longer than if you have an agent and can skip to the front of the line.

To be an agent and have a sale to a micropress really isn't saying much in the bigger picture. As an author, sure, it means something you got that publishing contract. As an agent, you didn't really open any doors for your client that they couldn't open themselves, so how did you actually HELP the client?

Perhaps a moment to define "Small Press" and "Micro Press," since sometimes it seems they're used interchangeably;they're not the same thing. The term "Small Press" is used on any publisher that has annual revenue below 50 million dollars, and/or produce fewer than 10 titles a year. Also "small presses" have print runs at a minimum of 300. "Micro Press" is a term used on operations that don't have print runs, have few staff, and really are more of a hobby publisher. These terms are not universal, and do have some variability country to country (eg. sometimes "small press" and "independent press" are used interchangeably even though there are some "independent presses" that sell millions of copies of their books.).

Going with a "small press" CAN be as lucrative as going with Penguin. Some small presses get their books on the NYT best seller list. agents submit to small presses all the time.
 
Last edited:

Christine N.

haz a shiny new book cover
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
7,705
Reaction score
1,336
Location
Where the Wild Things Are
Website
www.christine-norris.com
Thank you I sometimes just use them interchangeably, but usually mean micro.

PS - someone forwarded me this link: http://www.vbfront.com/

There's an article in the new issue, an interview with Ms. Dowdle, around page 56 or so. I admire her honesty about what she knows of publishing and agenting, but...well, I'll let the article do the talking.
 
Last edited:

Christine N.

haz a shiny new book cover
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
7,705
Reaction score
1,336
Location
Where the Wild Things Are
Website
www.christine-norris.com
If you want to see how no agent is better than a bad agent:

http://jetreidliterary.blogspot.com/2010/12/how-to-find-out-if-your-agent-is-idiot.html

For the record, I have no idea who this agent is that Janet is speaking of, and it's most likely NOT Ms. Dowdle - the world is full of people who hang a shingle and have no business doing so. In fact, having read several of Ms. Dowdle's query letters, I can tell you the style is different. But this is a pretty good example of what a person with NO publishing experience who tries to be an agent will get you.
 
Last edited:

Christine N.

haz a shiny new book cover
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
7,705
Reaction score
1,336
Location
Where the Wild Things Are
Website
www.christine-norris.com
Every statement I've made on this thread about this agent has been about business. There are dozens of others just like her, who probably want to do good but don't quite have the necessary tools. I have not said one mean thing about the agent or agency, nor have I said anything that several others in this thread have NOT said.

So if anyone thinks I'm a horrible person for the expression MY opinion on this business related thread, having nothing to do with ME PERSONALLY (or my website OR my tweets OR what I LOOK LIKE??? Yeah, I'm fat, been fat my whole life. What does that have to do with anything?? I'm fat, so I'm automatically angry? Or are you all pretty and perfect??), kindly go jump in a lake. The end.
 
Last edited:

CaoPaux

Mostly Harmless
Staff member
Super Moderator
Moderator
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
13,952
Reaction score
1,746
Location
Coastal Desert
Yup, and it's being addressed.
 

Christine N.

haz a shiny new book cover
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
7,705
Reaction score
1,336
Location
Where the Wild Things Are
Website
www.christine-norris.com
Thank you CaoPaux. I just wanted it to be clear that I hold no animosity toward the person who this thread is about and my statements were made in the spirit of the industry, to anyone who happened to be PM'ing OTHER people instead of myself directly (ie: lurkers who support in email)

No worries. I want to apologize that it got so out of hand, and getting into an argument that had nothing to do with the thread when I should have left it alone.
 
Last edited:

Erin

Listening to my other selves
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 3, 2007
Messages
1,638
Reaction score
363
Location
California
Website
www.erinrichards.com
Thank you CaoPaux. I just wanted it to be clear that I hold no animosity toward the person who this thread is about and my statements were made in the spirit of the industry, to anyone who happened to be PM'ing OTHER people instead of myself directly (ie: lurkers who support in email)

No worries. I want to apologize that it got so out of hand, and getting into an argument that had nothing to do with the thread when I should have left it alone.

Wow...I never got the impression you were personally slinging mud toward the person this thread is about (and I value your opinions). It's too bad others saw it that way. Unfortunately, it's the nature of these threads that start off about a particular agent/agency and then morph into general industry discussions.
 

CaoPaux

Mostly Harmless
Staff member
Super Moderator
Moderator
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
13,952
Reaction score
1,746
Location
Coastal Desert
Yeup. Add to that third parties looking to fan the flames, and we get nowhere fast. Back to the relevant issues, shall we? Which I believe include why agents who seemingly cannot sell to advance-paying publishers ought to be at the bottom of one's submit list, if put on the list at all.
 

Maddie

Roe Draje
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 7, 2009
Messages
491
Reaction score
17
Location
lassen on the brain
Website
www.saraville.com
The article of the interview of Dawn Dowdle that Christine N. mentioned was interesting, in that I get the impression that Ms. Dowdle is "learning" agenting as she goes along. This concept doesn't inspire confidence in her skills as an agent. Thank you for passing that article along.
 

Filigree

Mildly Disturbing
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 16, 2010
Messages
16,441
Reaction score
1,529
Location
between rising apes and falling angels
Website
www.cranehanabooks.com
For Christine's sake, I hope her experiences turn out well with this agency.
But even if I wrote in Dawn's target genres, I would not submit anything to her. She may mean well. But her apparent lack of industry knowledge and contacts doesn't inspire any confidence that she could get really good deals for her authors.

An agent's work isn't limited to the initial pitch letter. If agents can't show me they know the business already, that they've apprenticed with industry experts, and have a proven track record, why should I entrust my work to them?

Filigree
 

Christine N.

haz a shiny new book cover
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
7,705
Reaction score
1,336
Location
Where the Wild Things Are
Website
www.christine-norris.com
I'm not her client. I've only seen her query letters because they've come into my inbox more than once. She makes a habit of submitting client's work to micropresses. I believe another party here was her client previously, for a single work.

Everything else in your post was spot on :).
 

Filigree

Mildly Disturbing
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 16, 2010
Messages
16,441
Reaction score
1,529
Location
between rising apes and falling angels
Website
www.cranehanabooks.com
Oops. Sorry, Christine. It was a slip I missed in editing the post.

I want to make clear that I have no problem with reputable micro-presses. I've seen some gorgeous work come from them, especially in the literary and scholarly-works fields: many poetry chapbooks, some limited edition artists' books, and one spectacular photography and archaeology book that a friend of mine produced in tandem with his museum exhibition. My friend's book sold out the first 50 printings, and is up to (I think) 300 or more. But the exhibit has been up for almost a year, and is still drawing buyers. He's just barely breaking even with the print costs, but the advertising for his photography business is worth it.

However, sell-through on a print run of 1000 is rare and takes some time and marketing savvy. For too many new writers, the lure of simply 'being published' overcomes the patient effort to become published well.

Good agents can match books to many markets, and get the most profit possible. From what I've read in her interviews, Dawn may not have the background and contacts to do this yet. It's sad that so many of us can't help her get that experience, thus possibly leading to her eventual failure as an agent.

But here I have to be firmly selfish. My wonderful, darling mms is ultimately a product of little more abstract worth than the commercial art that pays my bills. I don't ship art to designers who fail my background checks, who have no real or virtual gallery space, and can show me no industry contacts beyond a vanity poster publisher. Why should I be less diligent with my writing, that actually takes more of my time than my art?

Filigree