Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 1

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sc211

Re: Rowling's book a year

Hey Uncle Jim,

I liked your Fire Door Theory of Novels, but I got a different view on the last part.

You wrote, "Our hero wanders more, finds a friend who knows where there's a show he'd really like, loans him money and dry socks, and together they sit down in another really good movie just as the opening titles start.

That's the climax of your book."

If what the hero wanted is a romance, or a home, then yeah, cuddling up in a new life with dry socks is the climax.

But if it's more of an action novel, perhaps it'd go something like this:

...and together they sit down in another really good movie just as the opening titles start.

Then the guy who was pestering the hero so much in the first movie shows up and tries to weasle in on the hero's date (or at least his popcorn), and a fight ensues in which the hero triumphantly turns the projector into a projectile.

That's the climax of the book, and then the hero and new friend head to her apartment to cuddle up before a DVD player.


And hey Beth, welcome! Nurses are the unsung mothers of the world.
 

James D Macdonald

Re: Dipping my toe in

Mind if I join in?

Welcome to the party!

(I'm a volunteer EMT, myself.)

Get comfy. Here's a beer. If you want to come out from under your Lurk Hood, would you like to mention the names of your novels?

(It's really true, folks: it's harder to sell a third or fourth novel than it is to sell a first one.)

This isn't for you, specifically, but your comments reminded me that I was going to recommend a couple of articles to y'all:


<a href="http://www.sfwa.org/writing/restart.htm" target="_new">Jump-Starting a Stalled (Or Dead) Career</a>

<a href="http://www.sfwa.org/bulletin/articles/stalled.htm" target="_new">Stalled Careers, Writer's Block, and Monsters Under the Bed</a>

Those are far better bits of advice than Jane Doe Austen's whiney article in Salon ever offered.
 

James D Macdonald

Re: Rowling's book a year

Then the guy who was pestering the hero so much in the first movie shows up and tries to weasle in on the hero's date ...

Sure, why not?

The important thing isn't that we're at the movies, the important thing is the firedoor.

Y'see, there has to be a set of defining "you can't go back" moments in the book. Ones where status quo antes isn't an option. One where the protagonists can't say, "To heck with this" and go back to their seats and be passive.

Take Moby-Dick for an example. One firedoor is when the Pequod pulls away from the shore. At that moment Ishmael can't go back to being a schoolteacher. A second firedoor is when Ahab appears, and forces the crew to swear that they will sail 'round the shores of Hell itself, but they will catch the white whale. The third firedoor might be when Moby-Dick is sighted and the crew launches its boats.

The protagonist does something. He or she is in motion. (Note: this can be purely symbolic or psychological motion, but motion there must be.) The protagonist has choices, and "Screw this, let's get some popcorn" isn't one of them. The door has closed.
 

maestrowork

Re: Dipping my toe in

The protagonist has choices, and "Screw this, let's get some popcorn" isn't one of them.

That means your stakes must be high. (internal or external, depending on your story -- external is easier because it "forces" your hero to do something. Internal is harder, because by default your character does have a choice.)

High stakes are usually in the form of: love, greed, hate, and their variations (revenge, obsession, lust, death, loss, etc.)
 

detante

Re: Dipping my toe in

(It's really true, folks: it's harder to sell a third or fourth novel than it is to sell a first one.)

Are there steps a new novelist can/should take to avoid the Dreaded Publishing Death Spiral and other nightmares? I suppose the simple answer is to make sure each new novel is so good it sells better than the last. But are there other things to consider?

-Jen
 

James D Macdonald

Re: Dipping my toe in

But are there other things to consider?

Rising sales curves are the master item, of course, but:

Publish with more than one publisher.

Keep short stories coming, to keep your name fresh, and introduce you to new readers. (The number one reason someone buys a book is because they've read and enjoyed a previous work by the same author. This previous work can be a short story.)

Be willing to accept a lower advance from a publisher who can promote your work effectively, rather than a higher advance from one who may be less effective.

Keep the novels coming too.

And -- make every work your best work. Don't get lazy.

Beyond that, there's an element of luck. The public is fickle.
 

ChunkyC

Re: Rowling's book a year

there has to be a set of defining "you can't go back" moments
This resonates, Uncle Jim. :thumbs I tend to look at my character's choices in the classic 'fork in the road' way. This adds a dimension, in that once your character chooses one 'tine' of the fork, the others disappear.
 

cwfgal

Re: Dipping my toe in

Get comfy. Here's a beer. If you want to come out from under your Lurk Hood, would you like to mention the names of your novels?

It's probably easier (and takes up less space here) to just give my web site (www.bethamos.com). My first 3 novels are all out of print but if anyone really wants to read one they can be had used for as little as a penny from Amazon.

Thanks for the beer and the welcome.

Beth
 

cwfgal

Re: Dipping my toe in

And hey Beth, welcome! Nurses are the unsung mothers of the world.

Thanks for the welcome (though there are a few male nurses I work with who might take issue with the above).

Beth
 

James D Macdonald

Re: Dipping my toe in

Hi, Beth --

I assume your works have all reverted?

Have you considered finding a smaller publisher who does reprints who'd like to have 'em? Somewhere amongst America's 4,000 small presses there has to be one.

But maybe not. The natural state of a book is Out Of Print. Time to change your name and restart?
 

macalicious731

Re: Rowling's book a year

Jim, that brings up a question I've had for ages but always forget to ask.

One of my favorite books is classified as Out of Print. It's unavailable in bookstores, etc., but it's on Amazon as "ships in 24 hours," so it's readily available. I've ordered a couple of copies, because I tend to give it as gifts... but I guess I just don't understand how if it is Out of Print, I can still get it from the publisher?

Of course, I'm certainly not complaining! It's just a little conflicting.
 

James D Macdonald

Re: Rowling's book a year

...if it is Out of Print, I can still get it from the publisher?

No, you can't get it from the publisher. I expect that there's a Hidden Hoard in a warehouse. Does Amazon have a case in the back somewhere?

One of the Vicious Publisher Tricks, to avoid reverting a book, is to put a book Out of Stock (technically that's between printings ... but if this goes on too long, if it's permanently out of stock, it should be listed as Out of Print).

Your contract should have something in it about how long a publisher has to bring a book back into print after it's out of stock. When you have a book that's permanently out of stock, you order a copy direct from the publisher. If they can't provide it, and don't bring it back to print in the contracted time period, you can ask for the rights to revert. Then you can resell the work to another publisher.

(Note: The "rights" here aren't the copyright. You've kept that. This is the right to print in hardcover, in softcover, in North America, whatever rights were granted in the section of the contract cunningly labeled "Grant of Rights.")

Why a publisher might list a work as Out of Stock rather than Out of Print: to hold onto the rights, just in case you suddenly got hot and they wanted to bring out a big edition. This is yet another of the Horrors of the Literary Life that plague authors.

(One of the things agents do is keep track of these things, to either get back the rights so the book can be resold, or to press the publisher to return it to print, so that it's once again in the bookstores. The way publishing is supposed to work, the publisher can hold onto the rights only so long as they're actively selling the book. They stop selling, the author gets the rights back.)
 

Ashnistrike

Big Thanks to Everyone

I would just like to announce that after 7 years, 8 months of work, I have finished my first novel. I started out with a bit here and a bit there, and had a couple of years when I worked on other stuff, but over the last few months my pace has been steadily increasing. It's still relatively slow (as much BIC time goes to being a newbie academic), but at this point another novel of the same length would take me 1-2 years. This board has been a part of that, so I wanted to thank you.

The first edit, which I did as I went along, is done. Next is the "set it aside while I wait for the beta readers to catch up" edit. My read-it-as-I-go-along betas, waiting for me to write the climax, were literally begging me for the lives of particular characters and planets, which I took as a good sign. The two who have now gotten to the end found it satisfying, which I also take as a good sign.

While waiting a couple of months to re-edit, I have started on the sequel (following Uncle Jim's advice). Just to warn people, beginning from a blank page is still hard the second time. Picking the POV characters is still hard the second time. Trying to figure out where to put the first scene is still hard the second time (the "fire door" for the second book is actually the climax for the first book, although it's not obvious at the time). The difference is that this time I already know I can do it.

Ashni
 

Ashnistrike

Re: Romantic Subplots

About writing romantic subplots when you yourself don't have one...

Do you know any happy couples? Do you know any unhappy couples? Do you know any couples who are still in the first glow, or who haven't quite gotten together yet? If so, watch them. Heck, talk to them. If you had a character take up knitting, you'd do your research; romance is no different.

The suggestion, offered somewhere upthread, to use romance as a source of conflict, was a good one.

Beyond that, I'll offer a couple of what I fondly imagine are hopeful points. YMMV. People who aren't in relationships often imagine finding the person of their dreams--someone who is everything they've ever hoped for. However, after about two weeks in a real relationship, you start noticing that the "perfect person" has warts on their back, leaves their laundry on the floor, or has inexplicable political opinions. Working relationships are based on the understanding that imperfect harmony is okay. Nonworking relationships (many of them, at least) are based on the assumption that the actual "perfect person" is still out there. Similarly, nonworking romantic subplots are based on the assumption that people who were in an actual relationship would be perfect for each other, would only argue about the big plot-related things, and would either be a match for each other in all ways or else dramatically star-crossed.

When I went to start my book, I knew that two of the characters would get together by the end. At the time, I thought this was simple and sweet. A little later, I started dating my best beta reader. This was instructive. We are from slightly different American cultures (WASP and Jewish). Almost all of our background is identical, yet the differences still lead to conflict. (Just as an example, due to differing expectations about hospitality, it took me several visits to realize that her parents liked me). My characters were from, respectively, a slightly puritan empire and an anarchy that lacked the concept of monogamy. I revised. A lot. And I married my best beta reader. As research, it was extremely helpful. :grin

Seriously, I do believe it's just as possible to write a romantic subplot while single as it is to write death-defying action plots without having been through them yourself. Research is good. Imagination is good. Most importantly, realizing that people keep being people, and being flawed, no matter what they're doing, is what makes it work.

Ashni
 

macalicious731

Re: Dipping my toe in

I can't wait to finish the first one so I can't get to this point:

The difference is that this time I already know I can do it.

Thanks, Ashni! And congratulations!
 

maestrowork

Re: Dipping my toe in

Are there steps a new novelist can/should take to avoid the Dreaded Publishing Death Spiral and other nightmares?

:rollin Sorry, but I'm still trying to sell my first one. I can't look forward so far ahead. :b
 

maestrowork

Re: Big Thanks to Everyone

Ashni, congratulations! You've made it so far. The beginning has only begun! :)
 

cwfgal

Re: Romantic Subplots

I assume your works have all reverted?

I have the rights back on the first three, yes. Just got them about a year ago. I'm hanging onto them for the moment to use as an additional enticement when I start hunting for a new agent. (I just fired the one I've had for the past 3 years.)

I want to get more of the current WIP done and polished before I start looking. The current WIP is in the same genre as my first 3; the one I self-published is different (which is one of many reasons I decided to self-publish it.)

As for a name change...that was discussed with my first agent (who has since retired) when I was dumped by my first publisher. We even had one picked out. But for a number of reasons, things never went any further. I opted to use my real name for the self-pubbed book, hoping to maybe tap into a handful of the readers I accumulated with the first 3. But it's been so long since those came out that I doubt I'll be able to do much tapping. That keg has run dry.

Beth
 

wwwatcher

Re: subplots

Publish

I'm working at getting a handle on the short story to novel question too.

It got a little clearer for me when I finished a short story that seemed to have the potential to get bigger. It had interesting characters in an interesting situation and although it had a satisfactory ending there were questions that I and my readers were still interested in having answers to. This was when I started thinking about writing a novel.

Don't know if this helps, but it can't hurt.
Faye
 

wwwatcher

Shameless Jim

So, what's this?
Have we got the running title for when this thread gets to the ebook version?

"Learn Writing with Shameless Jim"

It's got kind of a "Shoeless Joe" ring to it.

Ha.
 

James D Macdonald

Re: subplots

We've turned short stories into novels on two occassions. In one, the short story turned into the first three chapters ... then continued. In the other the short story made up the central portion of the novel, and bore scant resemblence to the original.

Turning short stories into novels isn't the easiest thing I've ever done.
 

RajanYK

Re: Novels

Say you've been writing for a while and have basically written two novels (or you finish one and while that's out you finish another). Assuming both are publishable, is there any drawback to submitting both novels to different publishers?

I'd think that it would be the most time-efficient method, but is there anything to be gained by saving that other novel and submitting it to the same publisher that accepted your first novel?
 

Risseybug

Re: Rowling's book a year

The Potter books have been 2-3 years apart, with more in progress.

Actually, I don't know how long it took her to sit down and write those books. They have been released every 2-3 years, with editing and publishing.

I DO know that the last word of book seven has been written for some time now. I was watching something on her, oh, I guess it was a year or so ago and she showed the camera the folder with the final chapter in it (the editor now has all the pages, so nobody nosey can see them first).

But they will be released in that same span, to keep the public buying. I think now she is just spending time with her little ones. I would like to see a non- HP book by her too, but I have a feeling it's going to take some doing to shake off Hogwarts.
 

macalicious731

Re: Shameless Jim

I would like to see a non- HP book by her too

If I remember correctly, she's interested in adult novels after the series is complete. "Bits and pieces" of some are already written; it's just a matter of whether or not those pieces are what she works on next.

By the way, Jim, thanks for that Amazon explanation. It doesn't say "Out of Print" anymore like it used to, but every bookstore I visit still says it is. I'm sure Amazon's got their hoard... right now there's only one left in stock, but more are on the way... As long as it disappear completely, I'm content!
 

Beaver

Short stories to novels

In a book I read by Jerry Cleaver (Immediate Fiction), he said the only thing one needed to do to turn a short story into a novel is to add more characters. More characters leads to more interactions and more conflicts, resulting in more story. I have never tried this, but I assume it is correct. Most novels have far more characters in them than short stories.

Obviously, this is not the only difference between short stories and novels, and it is much easier said than done, but it makes sense.

Beaver :party
 
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