Entangled Publishing

JBuck said:

Hi Ether,
Congrats on the publishing contract with Entangled!
You must be so excited.
Just wondering if you (or anybody else who is on sub) wouldn't mind sharing your query/sub stats.
I have a full out with Heather. It's only been five weeks, but the webside says 4 weeks for 'queries and requests' so I assume they mean fulls also?
Cheers in advance.

Click to expand...

I don't think mine is a good example of their average times, to be honest. Mine went REALLY fast. I think I had a request from my query within 5 or 6 days, and an offer less than a week later. But I know of others who have been waiting longer.

I'd give it some time before nudging. Not getting a response isn't necessarily a bad thing. And Heather's really good about replying to every query and sub.

Its2Snappy said:

Congrats ether! I've discovered Entangled recently and everything I've read looks good so far. I'm seriously considering a submission to them.

Click to expand...

I'm really happy with them thus far. As some of the concerns expressed before mentioned, it'll be time that tells how widely their books get into stores, but they're definitely trying. (I know Shea Berkley's THE MARKED SON is available for pre-order on B&N now, which is a good sign to me.)

If you have any questions about their sub process or anything, let me know!

ether said:

I'm really happy with them thus far. As some of the concerns expressed before mentioned, it'll be time that tells how widely their books get into stores, but they're definitely trying. (I know Shea Berkley's THE MARKED SON is available for pre-order on B&N now, which is a good sign to me.)

If you have any questions about their sub process or anything, let me know!

Click to expand...

Thanks! I discussed it with my co-writer for our MS and it looks like a great option. May bug you later with questions.

Thanks, Ether.
Yeah, five weeks isn't long at all. I'll sit tight and try to distract myself with my WIP.
Great news about Shea Berkley's 'The Marked Son.' A sign of things to come for others such as yourself hopefully.

ether said:

I know Shea Berkley's THE MARKED SON is available for pre-order on B&N now, which is a good sign to me.

Click to expand...

Hi Ether. Just so you know, making a book available on an online store like B&N.com or Amazon is a no-brainer. It's simply a matter of the publisher or their distributor filling out paperwork. The real test is store placement and marketing. Best of luck to you!

On another forum, I asked them about print runs and returnability of books. Here are the responses from Liz Pelletier:

Regarding print runs:

Yes, we do print runs, but not for every book. It depends solely upon sales projections. WARD AGAINST DEATH is getting a lovely print run. The thing to keep in mind though is print runs only benefit the publisher, as author and Entangled staff are paid based on cover price. Whatever is left is Entangled's profit margin, so doing a print run to reduce COGS goes straight to Entangled's bottom line.

Click to expand...

and regarding returnabililty:

Answer: mostly.

Short discounts are returnable b/c there's greater risk to the buyer, but deep discounts are on a case by case basis. I don't think it's fair for the reseller to get a case of our books at 40% discount and then get to just return them if they don't sell in a week. There is no time frame on returns (how long they have to give them a chance to sell). Wal-Mart did this a couple of years ago and nearly bankrupted two very big publishers. Like I've said, we're young, agile, and determined; we know we have a lot to learn in the industry but at the same token we're not impressed to do things the same old way just because.

Click to expand...

But, they also said they use Lightning Source for printing... I didn't realize LS did print runs, and I didn't think any POD books were returnable, so the responses didn't make much sense to me, and I wasn't able to post a follow up.

I'm not convinced a print run only benefits the publisher, but if it is of benefit to them, I don't see why they wouldn't do it.

Yes, we do print runs, but not for every book. It depends solely upon sales projections. WARD AGAINST DEATH is getting a lovely print run. The thing to keep in mind though is print runs only benefit the publisher, as author and Entangled staff are paid based on cover price. Whatever is left is Entangled's profit margin, so doing a print run to reduce COGS goes straight to Entangled's bottom line.

Click to expand...

I wonder what they consider a "lovely" print run. Her comment about print runs only benefiting the publisher scares the bejabbers out of me because it's so ignorantly wrong - which makes me question their business practices and ability to sell books.

jennontheisland said:

But, they also said they use Lightning Source for printing... I didn't realize LS did print runs, and I didn't think any POD books were returnable, so the responses didn't make much sense to me, and I wasn't able to post a follow up.

Click to expand...

Yes, LSI does print runs - they're a printer, after all. I would never use them because they're far more expensive than most printers.

As for returns, the publisher makes that call. POD - in the strictest definition - is simply digital printing, something all publishers use for short runs or their ARCs. It has nothing to do with the returnability of a book. I've seen a number of POD business models who make their books returnable.

priceless1 said:

I wonder what they consider a "lovely" print run. Her comment about print runs only benefiting the publisher scares the bejabbers out of me because it's so ignorantly wrong - which makes me question their business practices and ability to sell books.

Click to expand...

ditto.

priceless1 said:

Yes, LSI does print runs - they're a printer, after all. I would never use them because they're far more expensive than most printers.

As for returns, the publisher makes that call. POD - in the strictest definition - is simply digital printing, something all publishers use for short runs or their ARCs. It has nothing to do with the returnability of a book. I've seen a number of POD business models who make their books returnable.

Click to expand...

Okay. That makes sense. Thanks.

Reading the quotes, I wonder if she meant "print runs only benefit the publisher" as in "the publisher is the only one who benefits", or as in "print runs can't be anything to the publisher other than a benefit".

If that makes any sense whatsoever... I'm trying to unbury myself from under a pile of deadlines, so my brain isn't fully functional at the moment.

I wonder if she doesn't mean that whether the book comes from a print run or a one-off order, the author doesn't earn anything different. The cover price is the cover price, and the author gets the same royalty no matter which way the book is produced. But the publisher might pay less per copy for a print-run book, so they DO make more money that way than with one-off POD's, and the extra savings goes directly to the publisher.


In other words, if 50 books sell from a print run, the author's royalty is the same as if those 50 books came as individual POD printed books. BUT the publisher's cost per copy for those 50 books is less for the print-run books, so they earn more than they do for the POD copies, but of course that extra money doesn't go to the author, but the publisher. So a print run, in that case, only does have extra benefit for the publisher, but the author would not profit any differently.

Which makes sense and is perfectly correct, but said weirdly.

Re-reading it, that sounds like what she does mean

I understood it as Christine did, that the publisher earns more per copy with a print run but it's the same for the author no matter what the publisher's costs are.

Should one have to try to figure out what the editor meant? On the face of it - in my feeble mind, that is - the implication is that print runs don't benefit the author. Given her lack of store presence and distribution, I can see why she'd rather sell ebooks. Less risk.

The cover price is the same for the ebook and the trade paperback? Or is it different percentages for ebook and paper so that the royalty comes out the same?

She is referring to POD versus a print run -- not ebooks. It was clear to me, and it was a forum post, not formal website copy, so I'll forgive her. I am often unclear on forums myself

As I read it, ebooks didn't even enter into that snippet of conversation at all.

No, I get that it was muddled. And it was a reply to a forum post, probably meant to make it clear that it was of no real difference to the author whether or not the book came out of a print run or as a one-off POD book, in case the author was looking at making more money from a print run. And, as was stated, there is no different benefit to the author one way or the other - the author gets the same royalty per book no matter where it came from, the only entity to benefit from a different production route is the publisher.

*shrug* Should I have to translate? Probably not. Do I get where she was going? Yes.

I just don't understand "the publisher earns more money" as a reason to not do print runs. From an author POV, fine, same amount of cash regardless of how the book is generated, but from a publisher POV, considering financial viability of a company, and potential benefits she herself lists... print runs seem like a good idea. They can take that extra bit of cash and put it into promo, buy ads, pay editors by book instead of on %...

Earlier in the thread this company presented a business plan that seemed questionable in terms of financial viability, and now they're saying they won't do something that could earn *them* extra money because it won't earn the author extra money. Except there are re-investment possiblities, and intangibles (immediate shipment of product being one) that are of benefit to the author.

A company that turns down money? I don't see how it's a good thing.

In order to make more money by doing print runs to reduce the cost of goods sold, the publisher needs to have more money to invest. It seems that they are a startup company with limited capital and distribution, so they don't have the money to invest in print runs right now. They seem to be using a POD/ebook model for most titles as they launch and build their name and distribution.

That's their business model. Not overextending themselves with credit or burning limited capital in the beginning seems to be in factor that would improve financial viability, rather than decrease it.

Of course. But to give the reason that "the author won't make more" as the only reason to not do print runs? Altruism only goes so far in business.

She didn't say what you put in quotes, Jenn, and I don't think that's what she meant. But I don't really have a dog in this fight, so if the publisher wants to clarify this herself, she's welcome to it.

kellion92 said:

In order to make more money by doing print runs to reduce the cost of goods sold, the publisher needs to have more money to invest. It seems that they are a startup company with limited capital and distribution, so they don't have the money to invest in print runs right now. They seem to be using a POD/ebook model for most titles as they launch and build their name and distribution.

That's their business model. Not overextending themselves with credit or burning limited capital in the beginning seems to be in factor that would improve financial viability, rather than decrease it.

Click to expand...

I agree with all of this. Seeing more of what's going on behind-the-scenes, I think their doing what they can without overextending themselves. Which I think is smart. They're working on getting wider distribution, but seriously, their first books aren't even out until August. It isn't like they've been around months or even weeks.

If they foresee a title is going to be in high demand, sure, why not invest the money in a print run if they're fairly confident it'll be worth it? But if a title looks like it might do better on ebook sales than print, what point is there in putting forth the money instead of sticking to POD for now?

Time will tell. I have high hopes, though. And I think they're doing their best to learn and adapt and prepare.

I think the whole 'the only person who gets more money from print runs is the publisher' line was to deter someone from thinking that they would see more royalties from print runs.

On the other hand, if a publisher puts out the money for a print run, yes, the per-unit price is cheaper. But the publisher (and author) will only profit if those books SELL. Bookstores are passing on stocking books more and more - books by big publishers and authors You Know By Name. My local B&N has half the floor space taken up by Nook advertising, then there's video games and educational games and toys, leaving less and less space for books. And bookstores have this ridiculous business model where they don't pay for books they order until they sell; they cycle stock around and around for credit. If you sell mostly over the internet, you better have a great online marketing plan.

The books don't earn anything for anyone sitting in a warehouse. So on one hand, yes, print runs will earn more for the publisher per unit. On the other, if they don't sell, you lose all the money.

Anyway, I don't think the post in question was saying anything out of sorts, just badly worded.

I'm reading all this with interest. I have a full with them now. From what I've seen on their site, here, and other places, they look promising, and I'm hopeful.

As everyone has said, time will tell. I certainly wish them luck.

Kenra Daniels said:

I'm reading all this with interest. I have a full with them now. From what I've seen on their site, here, and other places, they look promising, and I'm hopeful.

As everyone has said, time will tell. I certainly wish them luck.

Click to expand...

Good luck with your full!

Ether, ok, questions starting. Do you know if your book is going to be distributed at Amazon and B&N (online)? I saw that some of their books aren't at this time. Also, any book store presence (whether B&N or indies) or strictly POD? Thanks!

Kenra Daniels said:

I'm reading all this with interest. I have a full with them now. From what I've seen on their site, here, and other places, they look promising, and I'm hopeful.

As everyone has said, time will tell. I certainly wish them luck.

Click to expand...

Best of luck to you! I have a full with them as well. Anxious to hear back from them! Even if I get a no though, I'm just so thrilled that they liked what I sent in my query enough to want to see my full. That's a good feeling I know will stick for a long time no matter what the outcome....Still hope it's a good outcome though, hehe