[Display site] Writers Out

Kimberly, what part did you play in writing the text that Medievalist quoted at #13 above?

Looks like Writers Out is also a publisher. Here's one of their "seven self-publishing packages":

Ultimate Marketing ($1299)
From self published, to a best seller. The Ultimate Marketing package includes all the features of the Essential package, but also includes a press release crafted and distributed by our team of specialists and a position on writrersout.com ‘Featured Writers.’ This can give you exposure to millions of potential buyers and is sure to help significantly increase books sales

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"Can give" exposure, not "will give." Sheesh.

PVish said:

Looks like Writers Out is also a publisher. Here's one of their "seven self-publishing packages":

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"is sure to help significantly increase books sales"? That writing is inept on the most basic level. It's also guaranteeing sales, which is another indication of incompetence. Furthermore, there's no way this outfit is set up to handle even a minor bestseller.

I wouldn't let the author of that paragraph go anywhere near my books or my press releases.

simonm223 said:

[FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]. By posting any Content on, through or in connection with the Writers Out Services, you hereby grant to Writers Out a license to use, modify, delete from, add to, publicly perform, publicly display, reproduce, and distribute such Content solely on, through or in connection with the Writers Out Services, including, without limitation, through the Writers Out Services to applications, widgets, websites or mobile, desktop or other services which are linked with your Writers Out Member Account (collectively, [/FONT][FONT=&quot]“[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Linked Services[/FONT][FONT=&quot]”[/FONT][FONT=&quot]), including, without limitation, distributing part or all of the Writers Out Services and any Content included therein, in any media formats and through any media channels, except that Content marked [/FONT][FONT=&quot]“[/FONT][FONT=&quot]private[/FONT][FONT=&quot]”[/FONT][FONT=&quot] will not be distributed by Writers Out outside the Writers Out Services and Linked Services. This license does not grant Writers Out the right to sell or otherwise distribute your Content outside of the Writers Out Services or Linked Services. [/FONT].

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I'm not a lawyer, but I was a literary agent for many years and I would be concerned about this language. In the first line quoted above, they're claiming unlimited distribution rights outside their own sites as long as your material is posted on their site; and in the second, they seem to be saying they can sell the material via their own linked services. Yes, you can rescind this license, but while it's in effect you get no compensation for their use of it.

Personally, I'm interested in the fact that while use of the website element is currently free, they reserve the right to apply charges at a later date:

Writers Out TOS:
You acknowledge that Writers Out reserves the right to charge for any of the Writers Out Services and to change its fees (if any) from time to time in its discretion upon such posting on the Writers Out Website.

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Also, this was good for LOLs:

Writers Out Self Publishing Services: (BOLDING MINE)
Featured writers ($980)

Becoming a featured writer on Writers Out will maximize your exposure, give you great publicity and will get you noticed, by writers, readers and publishers around the world.
Featured writers will appear on the writersout.com home page in addition to the writer’s page, putting you right in front of the many thousands of visitors to writersout.com each day. Becoming a featured will likely boost your rankings on our best sellers list and assist in your quest to distribute your work and sell more books. The featured writer list is often reviewed by some of the world’s largest publishers so expect a spike in book sales and possibly some contacts from the globes leading publishers.

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Oh really? Which publishers would these be?

MM

I have a terribly sad feeling that we might not hear from Kimstar again.

I think it can be very good for people involved in an enterprise to take part in discussions. It isn't always fun for them but transparency and expertise tend to make people sit up and take notice.

I'm amazed by the amount of negativity on this forum as most of you are too quick to judge but that's your problem as you are missing a great opportunity and I'm sure it isn't the first time. I recommend you to spend less time on being pessimistic and more on selling books like I did on their site.

Barbara- your understanding of their T&C's is wrong, as a lawyer I can assure you that they don't claim to own the rights of my books.

It is a free site which means you don't have to purchase any of their packages as it's only optional.

Kimstar said:

Manuel,

I disagree with everything that Medievalist has said as clearly she or he didn't get what writersout is about.

None of the site that were listed above are even similar to the website I joined last week in that the writersout website is free and allowed me to upload my blogs and books, sell them and share samples of them for a free download as well as view my profile statistics which shows me how many people are reading and buying each of my item. I use their friend finder free program to invite all of my Facebook and Gmail friends and even posted my Facebook badge. It's all free and wonderful.

Many site I’ve been on either sell you a service or allow you to sell your books but none of them actually gives you the tools to do that and that’s why I like this site.

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You read like a marketer. I'm guessing you own the website, because it sounds like it.

Kimstar said:

I'm amazed by the amount of negativity on this forum as most of you are too quick to judge but that's your problem as you are missing a great opportunity and I'm sure it isn't the first time. I recommend you to spend less time on being pessimistic and more on selling books like I did on their site.

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That's a come back if there ever was one.

Kimstar said:

I'm amazed by the amount of negativity on this forum as most of you are too quick to judge but that's your problem as you are missing a great opportunity and I'm sure it isn't the first time. I recommend you to spend less time on being pessimistic and more on selling books like I did on their site.

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Thanks for the advice, but I don't actually sell my books myself. My publishers do that for me, through bookstores.

Barbara- your understanding of their T&C's is wrong, as a lawyer I can assure you that they don't claim to own the rights of my books.

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That's a misreading of Barbara's comment, I'm afraid. You claim to be an attorney? I assume you also claim to be an attorney specializing in IP law? I would expect an attorney to know the difference between what Barbara actually said and what you seem to think she said.

It is a free site which means you don't have to purchase any of their packages as it's only optional.

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But their TOS says they can start charging you at any time.


How many books have you sold through the site, if I can ask? Since you've mentioned a few times all the books you sold through it, and seem to find the service so useful, surely you can share a ballpark figure with us? It would go a long way toward convincing us of how useful and beneficial the site is.

Hi again, Kimberly.

I'm still interested in knowing what part you played in writing the text Medievalist quoted in #13.

There's some discussion about the site here as well. (I hope it's okay to link to it.)

Hello everyone, I accidentally found this discussion and was almost afraid to join as it seems too hostile as most of you have ambushed a happy costumer for sharing her opinion. I (believe it or not) has joined the site Kim Wrote about after a good friend of mine recommended it and think it's a wonderful service in which I've been introduced to a very supportive writer's community. You don't have to agree with me but don't kill the messenger.

Sorry, I don't believe Kim's a customer and you unfortunately sound like a sockpuppet. If I'm wrong, I apologize. Could you tell us a little bit more about yourself and your work, so it's easier to see that you are a real person? Thanks!

hannabishop:
I accidentally found this discussion and was almost afraid to join as it seems too hostile as most of you have ambushed a happy costumer for sharing her opinion

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I'm curious as to how you "accidentally" found this discussion.

As regards ambushing someone - kimstar came to the board of her own accord and made a number of comments that were challenged and/or questioned - including by asking her to substantiate her involvement with the company. That's hardly an ambush.

In any event, it seems that Kim has experience in visiting different writers boards to promote Writers Out - all are drive-by postings that emphasise how wonderful it is.

hannabishop:
I (believe it or not) has joined the site Kim Wrote about after a good friend of mine recommended it and think it's a wonderful service in which I've been introduced to a very supportive writer's community.

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Okay, I'll take this at face-value. What is it specifically about Writers Out that makes it a good site compared to other sites that you have used? How did your friend find out about it and start using it? Are you selling your work over the site and if so, how many copies are you selling? Are you at all concerned by the fact that the site reserves the right to start charging for its use in the future?

hannabishop:
You don't have to agree with me but don't kill the messenger.

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I don't agree with you but nor am I killing you. I'd much rather have you come back to answer the questions I raise above.

MM

What was the line our darling Medievalist used a while ago? About being amazed at people who claim to be writers but don't seem to understand that their writing style conveys information about themselves, or how their quirks of grammar/dependence on certain phrases/etc. identifies them?

Momentomori, here are the answers to your questions.

Not sure why I even respond to such negative group of writers with a condescending attitude toward other writers but I will, as I think it's important to shed some light on the situation. I'm not trying to sell you anything nor do I think Kim did and with all honesty I much prefer if you didn't join the writers out website as there is no room for such negative "vibe" on their site as it's been nothing but a wonderful outlet for me and many of my friends.

1. My friend has received an email from writersout as a result of signing up on their newsletter board. WHY did my friend sign up to receive their newsletter??? My friend has signed up before they launch their site apparently after reading an article about them which interviewed the Co-founders (it was a positive article and so I don't think there's anything in it for you).

2. What's good about the site??? Too many things to list but will try in order to answer Momentomori's question. It's a professional network for writers which allows me to upload my portfolio of work, view statistic, sell and share with all my other networks by inviting them in to connect on one platform rather than jump from my LinkedIn, FB and other only to forward readers to my "other" profile. This place is for writers. I can also post my widget on my FB page and sell my books directly on FB. The fact that all of you are so angry about such a positive cause is what really surprise me simply because as writers, someone has created a place for us to network with each and our audience.
3. "Google" is a great search tool, you should check it out!



I have read their T&C after reading the heated comments on this forum and their T&C is no different than Facebook or any other network. It is free and if they will ever decide to change their mind, they will let you know.

My personal feelings are that it's free and was created for us the writers, it provides a great service so take it or leave it, it's up to you but do yourself a (big) favor, stop with all the hate messages.

hannabishop said:

Not sure why I even respond to such negative group of writers with a condescending attitude toward other writers but I will, as I think it's important to shed some light on the situation. I'm not trying to sell you anything nor do I think Kim did and with all honesty I much prefer if you didn't join the writers out website as there is no room for such negative "vibe" on their site as it's been nothing but a wonderful outlet for me and many of my friends.

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Pot calling kettle 'black', much?

Hanna, I know you're new, and for some reason, you appear to be taking criticism of a site personally, which is unfortunate since nothing posted here has anything to do with you. But seriously, you might want to consider what light your own words cast you in.

hannabishop said:

Not sure why I even respond to such negative group of writers with a condescending attitude toward other writers

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You're confusing a negative attitude towards the site itself - which I think is quite justified - with a negative attitude towards other writers.

The first rule of AW is 'respect your fellow writer' and for the most part that's scrupulously observed here. On the other hand there's no respect for scam artists, sock-puppets, or people who claim to be publishing experts but can't string a literate sentence together. And as Medi says, there's no particular animus towards display sites, it's just that they're mostly a waste of time if your ambition is to use them to get published.

I don't like the look of Writers Out. If you like it, that's great, and everyone here respects that. But the site's not at all well proofread, it seems to be sending sock puppets out into the world to defend it (I don't include you in this), which is deeply unethical, and it's not going to help anyone get published except possibly as part of a relatively expensive self-publishing package punted by the site operator. I'm also scratching my head over the front page claim that it is 'the world's leading self-publishing resource.'

I can't see anyone getting heated. I can can see people asking legitimate questions.

I can't comment on the T&C as I'm not a lawyer (though Momento is, and I know she's got a mind like a steel trap, so I'd listen to her)

My main issue would be: If it's such a great service, why has the top 'bestseller' as linked when you click, (Not including freebies, as some people will download anything that's free) only got sales of 5? After six weeks. Even the top 'selling' freebie has sales of, woohoo, 25.

The featured writers, well the top ones on the banner have an average of 6 sales. (Be much less if the top seller there didn't have sales of 17)

That's not a 'great service' from where I'm standing tbh.

For the bestselling paid book, at $3.99, IF the writer didn't pay for any services, that's a whopping $20 profit. If they DID pay for services...that's a fair whack of a loss.

The featured writers have paid for that service, yes? The free featured book has 17 sales. The others, of varying prices, have sales of 1 or 3.

Again, not looking like great service. It is looking like a great way to spend money. I suppose if you take the free service it's better than nothing, but not by much.

Maybe I'm missing something here (if so, please tell me what, as I'd love to know) but from what I can see, frankly, you'd be better off uploading to Amazon and frequenting the kindle boards/well known SP blogs.

ETA: To reiterate what Torgo said - this isn't condescending towards writers. It is exploring just what Writers Out is all about and whether it's just trying to get money out of people who are unaware of how publishing (self or otherwise) works best.

hannabishop:
Not sure why I even respond to such negative group of writers with a condescending attitude toward other writers but I will, as I think it's important to shed some light on the situation.

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It's not condescending to ask legitimate questions and answering them goes to establishing your credibility as a poster given that you're new to the forum.

The purpose of this Forum is to raise potential issues with publishers, agents etc so that people can make an informed decision. Newbie posters who drive by with an "OMG this site is so kewl and u r all meen for saying bad things!!!" carry little weight with the posters here and usually serve to damage reputation rather than restore it.

Given that you're apparently happy to answer questions (for which I thank you), you missed these 2, which I draw your attention to again:

- Are you selling your work over the site and if so, how many copies are you selling?

- Are you at all concerned by the fact that the site reserves the right to start charging for its use in the future?

hannabishop:
I'm not trying to sell you anything nor do I think Kim did and with all honesty I much prefer if you didn't join the writers out website as there is no room for such negative "vibe" on their site as it's been nothing but a wonderful outlet for me and many of my friends.

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You seem to be defining "negative" as "asking questions and pointing out potential problems". I understand why you might not like that - if you've found a site where you're happy then that's cool and dandy. If you've found a site though where everything seems to be great up until, for example, the site owners attempt to assert ownership of your work, or decide to impose sudden charges for usage of the features, then other people need to be made aware of that in advance.

hannabishop:
My friend has received an email from writersout as a result of signing up on their newsletter board. WHY did my friend sign up to receive their newsletter??? My friend has signed up before they launch their site apparently after reading an article about them which interviewed the Co-founders (it was a positive article and so I don't think there's anything in it for you).

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Where was this article published? Even if there's nothing in there for me, it would be good to substantiate that it actually exists don't you think? It does go to establish your credibility here and that seems to be important to you.

Oh, and knowing who the co-founders are would be good as well.

hannabishop:
It's a professional network for writers which allows me to upload my portfolio of work, view statistic, sell and share with all my other networks by inviting them in to connect on one platform rather than jump from my LinkedIn, FB and other only to forward readers to my "other" profile. This place is for writers. I can also post my widget on my FB page and sell my books directly on FB.

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Okay so how does that help sales? How many professional writers are on the site (or are you defining "professional" as someone who merely uses the site to sell work)?

hannabishop:
The fact that all of you are so angry about such a positive cause is what really surprise me simply because as writers, someone has created a place for us to network with each and our audience.

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You seem dreadfully concerned that we're angry with you or the site. Why should we be? It doesn't seem to be doing anything particularly innovative or useful for writers. Writers can network in a hundred different ways without needing another display site.

hannabishop:
3. "Google" is a great search tool, you should check it out!

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Yes, Google is a great search tool, isn't it? It's so great that before I asked you that question I did a little search there on writersout, which is why I know that this particular thread was showing up on the second page so you had to specifically scroll through to get here.

Now this leads me to wonder why you could possibly be bothering to do your own Google search on a site that you're apparently so wonderfully happy with purely to find our little site, which doesn't seem to have swallowed the kool-aid about writersout's s00per awesomeness ...

hannabishop:
I have read their T&C after reading the heated comments on this forum and their T&C is no different than Facebook or any other network. It is free and if they will ever decide to change their mind, they will let you know.

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Facebook doesn't operate as a display site for published work.

Which other networks do you think operate similar Ts and Cs?

hannabishop:
My personal feelings are that it's free and was created for us the writers, it provides a great service so take it or leave it, it's up to you but do yourself a (big) favor, stop with all the hate messages.

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It's currently free but the site reserves the right to charge in the future. This is a point that I know I've made several times and I'm still interested in knowing how and why you're comfortable with it.

As regards the "hate messages", given that there haven't been any I don't see what there is to stop. If you really want to support the site you apparently enjoy, then you'd be better off dropping the snarky, passive-aggressive attitude because (a) it's not working for you and (b) it just makes people think that writersout has stuff to hide.

Oh and I checked you out on writersout and see you've been a member since 16th February 2011, which is quite a long time, but you've only had 430 views since then. Have those hits all translated into sales?

One final point to note, I checked out the ownership details for writersout.com and it goes through to an address in Madeira, Portugal. When you search that address on Google (which is a great search tool by the way - we should all try it) it seems to be linked to a number of other websites, all of which have had scam queries raised about them. I will make a point of saying that I'm not seeing anything on writersout to indicate that it's a scam, but it would make me reluctant to give them my credit card details or any details that could be used to steal my identity.

MM

hannabishop said:

Momentomori, here are the answers to your questions.

Not sure why I even respond to such negative group of writers with a condescending attitude toward other writers but I will, as I think it's important to shed some light on the situation.

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And we appreciate that. All we've done here is ask questions.

I'm not trying to sell you anything nor do I think Kim did and with all honesty I much prefer if you didn't join the writers out website as there is no room for such negative "vibe" on their site as it's been nothing but a wonderful outlet for me and many of my friends.

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Just out of curiosity, is whether or not we join up to you? I'm just confused by you telling us you'd rather we not join; that makes it sound like our joining would have some effect on you, or as if you have a say in our possible membership(s).

1. My friend has received an email from writersout as a result of signing up on their newsletter board. WHY did my friend sign up to receive their newsletter??? My friend has signed up before they launch their site apparently after reading an article about them which interviewed the Co-founders (it was a positive article and so I don't think there's anything in it for you).

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I've only found one interview with the founder of the site, Inbal Gould; the name of the co-founder isn't mentioned anywhere. That interview is here on the Writers Out site, as well as being cross-posted to several other places.

There was also a mention of them in a Fiscaltimes.com article about people working for free, but I didn't see any actual quotes from either founder in it and their names are not given; the actual text concerning the site is on page three of the article, and reads in its entirety:

WritersOut.com, launching next month, will ask both new and established writers to publish and share their work on the site gratis, ideally building an audience and enough page views to appeal to advertisers down the road.

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So I guess your friend saw the mention in Fiscal Times? Because the other interview is only a few weeks old.


I took your advice, though, and used Google to do some research (thanks for the tip)! I discovered that Googling founder Inbal Gould turns up what ends up being only a page and a half of hits (the initial search shows four pages, but most of them are similar and so are omitted on page two). Indeed, all of those hits relate to the interview posted on Writers Out. I find no indication of any publishing experience.


WritersOut does have a Twitter account, as well as a Facebook fan page. Oh, now here's something; the Facebook page links to an article in an online media magazine about the site's investor, Joshua Gould, who just happens to share the same last name with Inbal--in fact, apparently the Goulds own a large company providing "language services," (translations) and have been very successful, which, great. It would seem that there is some money behind the operation--WritersOut is apparently part of the business--and they seem like decent enough people (although they've apparently made some enemies; there are a few Twitter accounts out there that don't like them much, but that looked to me like somebody's rather childish personal vendetta so I'm not going to dignify them with links), but I'm still not seeing experience with publishing.

Mr. Gould claims in the interview that the site will be "bigger than Myspace" (presumably when it was big, and not essentially bankrupt as it is now) and says they have connections with Oprah's book club and that "Sarah Palin's team is on board."

The problem, of course, is that books aren't sold the same way translation/language services are, and MySpace became successful not because it was a place for sellers to interact with buyers but because it was initially a place where friends could stay in touch with friends.

2. What's good about the site??? Too many things to list but will try in order to answer Momentomori's question. It's a professional network for writers which allows me to upload my portfolio of work, view statistic, sell and share with all my other networks by inviting them in to connect on one platform rather than jump from my LinkedIn, FB and other only to forward readers to my "other" profile. This place is for writers. I can also post my widget on my FB page and sell my books directly on FB. The fact that all of you are so angry about such a positive cause is what really surprise me simply because as writers, someone has created a place for us to network with each and our audience.

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Thank you for answering this question, which Kimstar wouldn't do. And we're not angry; why would we be?

If I'm understanding this correctly, then, from your response and Mr. Gould's comments in the interview I linked to, the idea is that writers can network with each other, and each have a page where they can sell their self-published work from (because generally only self-published or vanity-published authors can sell their books directly off their websites)? And they can automatically send buy links to their non-WritersOut friends through email and by using the Facebook widget the site provides?

So it's just like you have a Facebook page, only on a Facebook specifically for writers. Is that correct?

But why are readers there? My readers connect with me/interact with me through my website and blog, through Twitter, through Facebook, etc. I can't really see them taking the time to register on another site to say hello or have a chat with me when I'm already accessible elsewhere, and I can't see them signing up for a site like this just in case they might find a new writer. Honestly, readers like to interact with writers, sure, but when they're looking for new writers to read they generally talk to other readers, rather than registering on a writers' site and wandering around looking for stuff to read.

I have a website/blog/Twitter account/Facebook page specifically in order to publicize my books and interact with my readers; why do I then need to sign up for WritersOut to interact with other writers? Especially since most of my friends are writers and I interact with them all the time, too, on the aforementioned sites and on forums like this and through email, of course, and in person when we have the chance?

So who is the "audience" you're connecting with there? Because, sadly, I have to tell you that what usually happens when you have groups of authors but no readers on a site to sell books, you end up with lots of talk about buying each others' books/trading reviews/trading fairly useless "promo" tips like putting flyers in the envelopes when you pay your bills, and very few books actually being sold.

The simple fact that there are writers about isn't in itself a draw for readers. It never has been. Specific writers, sure, that can be. But writers in general, especially (sorry, but it's true) self-published writers who are there to try to promote their books...readers tend to run from that.

3. "Google" is a great search tool, you should check it out!

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As you can see, I did! I also found that your WritersOut Profile shows zero books sold, at least from what I can tell since your profile is set to "private." I'm kind of confused about that; how is it possible for you to find readers when they can't see information about you or your work?

You're listed as a Blogger on the WritersOut site, but Google didn't turn up any blogs for that name (none that seemed to fit, anyway, unless you're only seventeen years old, but that blogger didn't sound like you). So is the purpose of being there to publicize your blog? Or are you just having fun chatting about writing with your friends--which is of course fine, and it's great that you're enjoying yourself.

I have read their T&C after reading the heated comments on this forum and their T&C is no different than Facebook or any other network. It is free and if they will ever decide to change their mind, they will let you know.

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Again, the only heated comments on that subject came from Kimstar.

My personal feelings are that it's free and was created for us the writers, it provides a great service so take it or leave it, it's up to you but do yourself a (big) favor, stop with all the hate messages.

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And "take it or leave it" is fine advice, but the purpose of this forum is to provide information and opinions to help writers decide which of those options they'll take when it comes to any given publisher/agent/service.

No one, absolutely no one, here is posting "hate messages," and if we were I fail to see how stopping them would be doing ourselves a "favor." That sounds like a threat; what are you threatening us with? What will happen if we don't stop?

As Momento Mori so eloquently said:

Momento Mori said:

It's not condescending to ask legitimate questions and answering them goes to establishing your credibility as a poster given that you're new to the forum.

The purpose of this Forum is to raise potential issues with publishers, agents etc so that people can make an informed decision. Newbie posters who drive by with an "OMG this site is so kewl and u r all meen for saying bad things!!!" carry little weight with the posters here and usually serve to damage reputation rather than restore it.

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Given the Kimstar sockpuppetry and the general level of reading comprehension/writing skill displayed by some of the WritersOut defenders in this thread and on the WritersOut site itself, I had a pretty lousy impression of them; the info I found on Google made me see this more as a well-intentioned attempt to create a new social networking site, although I'm still disturbed by the T&C and the rather pricey "self-publishing" packages. It's a shame we didn't get that info up front, instead of generic comments about meanies.


Also as Momento said:

Given that you're apparently happy to answer questions (for which I thank you), you missed these 2, which I draw your attention to again:

- Are you selling your work over the site and if so, how many copies are you selling?

- Are you at all concerned by the fact that the site reserves the right to start charging for its use in the future?





Okay so how does that help sales? How many professional writers are on the site (or are you defining "professional" as someone who merely uses the site to sell work)?



Facebook doesn't operate as a display site for published work.

Which other networks do you think operate similar Ts and Cs?



It's currently free but the site reserves the right to charge in the future. This is a point that I know I've made several times and I'm still interested in knowing how and why you're comfortable with it.

As regards the "hate messages", given that there haven't been any I don't see what there is to stop. If you really want to support the site you apparently enjoy, then you'd be better off dropping the snarky, passive-aggressive attitude because (a) it's not working for you and (b) it just makes people think that writersout has stuff to hide.

One final point to note, I checked out the ownership details for writersout.com and it goes through to an address in Madeira, Portugal. When you search that address on Google (which is a great search tool by the way - we should all try it) it seems to be linked to a number of other websites, all of which have had scam queries raised about them. I will make a point of saying that I'm not seeing anything on writersout to indicate that it's a scam, but it would make me reluctant to give them my credit card details or any details that could be used to steal my identity.

MM

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Thanks again for answering questions, Hanna.

Hi, hanna! Welcome to AW.

Same question for you as for Kimstar: What part did you play in writing the text that Medievalist quoted at #13 above?